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Grape posted:Without Islam I wonder what degree of "othering" would be in place for Western Euros that they would be comfortable grabbing up Christian land from people who aren't black (cough Ethiopia cough). Also Ireland.
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Feb 26, 2021 23:36
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BonHair posted:Denmark for their flag when it fell down from the sky during a crusade. In loving Estonia, which was hardly a Muslim country. I'm sure we Europeans would manage to pull a racism. In this scenario we'd still get the Turkic invasions into the Middle East, and the Mongols... Hell maybe even a sectarian version of the crusades (well a way more sectarian version anyway). Orange Devil posted:Also Ireland. I was focusing on more 1800's style colonialism, but yeah. That works especially well with testing the sectarian aspect. It works even better really given that Malta was war spoils from the French, Cyprus was swapped with the Ottomans as a backdoor deal, and Russia went into the Christian Caucasus to "defend them". Ireland was straight up "lol these papist savages need to be tamed, and we want their land". Grape fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Feb 26, 2021 |
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Feb 26, 2021 23:39
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Zedhe Khoja posted:It's also a pretty extremely generous interpretation of Hebrew dominated lands at....any point in history really. Also I celebrate sinking Mesopotamia into the Persian gulf. Or is that some psychotic interpretation of Assyrian cultural extent? It's... Probably? Not very far off from the extent of syriac
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Feb 26, 2021 23:47
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Doubtful the crusades would ever happen with the Bishop of Rome under the Empire's thumb where he belongs.
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Feb 26, 2021 23:59
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Byzantine posted:Doubtful the crusades would ever happen with the Bishop of Rome under the Empire's thumb where he belongs. The whole point of the crusades was a call for help though.
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Feb 27, 2021 00:14
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"hey guys I'm losing my empire to the Turks pls helo..... No not like that......guys? Guys?!?!"
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Feb 27, 2021 01:02
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SlothfulCobra posted:Part of how bad Waterworld hosed up is that it just poisoned the idea of a wet postapocalyptic world, leaving nothing to counterbalance Mad Max. There's genuinely fascinating ideas and plenty of real cultures to draw influence from, but one high-profile failure and nobody wants to make that risk again. I like the Waterworld setting even if it is unrealistic, I wish more post apocalyptic movies would play around with the setting like that. Post apocalyptic deserts are so overplayed that it's boring to me now.
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Feb 27, 2021 02:06
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SlothfulCobra posted:The whole point of the crusades was a call for help though. Alterna-Pope calls for help from his flock due to those bastard Orthos stopping good Catholics from traveling to the holy land.
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Feb 27, 2021 02:08
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Kamrat posted:I like the Waterworld setting even if it is unrealistic, I wish more post apocalyptic movies would play around with the setting like that. I loved waterworld
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Feb 27, 2021 02:39
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Grape posted:Alterna-Pope calls for help from his flock due to those bastard Orthos stopping good Catholics from traveling to the holy land. But would the great schism even happen without the eastern church getting overrun
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Feb 27, 2021 03:23
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Byzantine posted:Doubtful the crusades would ever happen with the Bishop of Rome under the Empire's thumb where he belongs. this is typical you mods, i thought this empire was permabanned?
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Feb 27, 2021 03:32
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Grape posted:Ireland was straight up "lol these papist savages need to be tamed, and we want their land". BonHair posted:Denmark for their flag when it fell down from the sky during a crusade. In loving Estonia, which was hardly a Muslim country. I'm sure we Europeans would manage to pull a racism. Without Islam firmly cementing a divide between the areas north and south of the Mediterranean, presumably Europe as a concept would be heavily de-emphasized compared to history. More trying unite the Mediterranean in the south, less creating a universal European Christian kingdom. Kamrat posted:I like the Waterworld setting even if it is unrealistic, I wish more post apocalyptic movies would play around with the setting like that. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 07:14
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A Buttery Pastry posted:More trying unite the Mediterranean in the south It was united before the Muslim invasions.
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Feb 27, 2021 07:29
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Byzantine posted:It was united before the Muslim invasions.
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Feb 27, 2021 07:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Literally no one liked you guys though, which is part of the reason those places fell so quickly and then become integrated in a better empire. The Muslims just accelerated the process of decline. Which, since the Empire was the only thing holding the barbarians back, led directly to the Franks and Angles carving up Muslim lands in 1920.
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Feb 27, 2021 08:02
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Byzantine posted:Which, since the Empire was the only thing holding the barbarians back, led directly to the Franks and Angles carving up Muslim lands in 1920. He's saying you shouldn't have gotten hung on the Oriental Orthodox having somewhat different beliefs about what Jesus was.
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Feb 27, 2021 08:29
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Race as we know it is a fairly recent thing. People will always find a way to divide themselves from and hate others, but with the butterfly’s wings flapping that far back, it’s doubtful that whatever prominent divisions they make will look like ours.
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Feb 27, 2021 09:37
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Brawnfire posted:I loved waterworld Why does anyone even hate Waterworld? Or that mailman movie, while we're at it? Especially people who do like Mads Max - to me they're literally all the same 
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Feb 27, 2021 11:08
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It became one of those movies that was popular to hate and now a lot of people who can only vaguely remember it from childhood maintain that it was terrible because they mostly remember other people saying it was terrible.Kamrat posted:Post apocalyptic deserts are so overplayed that it's boring to me now. 
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Feb 27, 2021 11:13
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Guavanaut posted:It became one of those movies that was popular to hate and now a lot of people who can only vaguely remember it from childhood maintain that it was terrible because they mostly remember other people saying it was terrible. I remember being extremely disappointed when it was on TV and I finally got to watch it and it was just a normal fantasy movie, not the supremely bad movie I was expecting 
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Feb 27, 2021 11:16
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3D Megadoodoo posted:I remember being extremely disappointed when it was on TV and I finally got to watch it and it was just a normal fantasy movie, not the supremely bad movie I was expecting It was a huge box office flop and it cost a ton of money to make, which led to a ton of negative media coverage and people thinking the movie was bad. It's actually a cool Saturday afternoon pirate story that had a much larger budget than it really needed.
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Feb 27, 2021 11:50
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Grape posted:Without Islam I wonder what degree of "othering" would be in place for Western Euros that they would be comfortable grabbing up Christian land from people who aren't black (cough Ethiopia cough). I want to take a peek into this world of your in which Europe isn't an eternal meatgrinder of lords and countries taking land from each other on the battlefield based on the slightest of pretexts.
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Feb 27, 2021 12:08
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Post-apocalypse, but it takes place on an Earth where a greenhouse climate has taken over and the million lakes of Canada are overrun by crocodiles and alligators. Florida World. Hey, why not, a post apocalypse movie doesn't have to take place on the earth as we know it. Just make up some bullshit about science gone wrong and we're there. 3D Megadoodoo posted:Why does anyone even hate Waterworld? Or that mailman movie, while we're at it? Especially people who do like Mads Max - to me they're literally all the same Growing up I didn't know that people hated Waterworld, everyone around here seemed to like it. I'm from Europe though and as I understand it got a worse reception in the states. Guavanaut posted:What about post-apocalyptic desert but cold? That works, at least it's different. 
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Feb 27, 2021 12:35
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Byzantine posted:It was united before the Muslim invasions. I suppose you mean before Theodosius' ruinous decision got us ratfucked and led to your heresy
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Feb 27, 2021 13:03
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Kamrat posted:Growing up I didn't know that people hated Waterworld, everyone around here seemed to like it. I'm from Europe though and as I understand it got a worse reception in the states. Oh yeah maybe. Its logical since the American way of life is blown up in it.
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Feb 27, 2021 13:47
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Byzantine posted:Which, since the Empire was the only thing holding the barbarians back, led directly to the Franks and Angles carving up Muslim lands in 1920. when you say barbarians you mean goths right? theyre fuckin weird both the visis and the ostros. mentalists
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Feb 27, 2021 14:21
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BonHair posted:Denmark for their flag when it fell down from the sky during a crusade. In loving Estonia, which was hardly a Muslim country. I'm sure we Europeans would manage to pull a racism. yeah, from what I understand historiographically during the early days of the Rashidun caliphate Islam wasn’t even a fully fleshed-out different religion in the minds of the people on the ground and in the armies. In a lot of the conquered Byzantine lands, the invaders might have even been seen is preferable to the Christians who had been lording over them for centuries. Tweezer Reprise fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 14:25
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:It was a huge box office flop and it cost a ton of money to make, which led to a ton of negative media coverage and people thinking the movie was bad. It's actually a cool Saturday afternoon pirate story that had a much larger budget than it really needed. I thought it already got negative media even before release, with (probably exaggerated) horror stories about its troubled production souring public perception before it hit theaters. The (American, at least) public had already made up its mind about Waterworld before they'd seen a frame of it.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:28
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Mr. Belpit posted:I thought it already got negative media even before release, with (probably exaggerated) horror stories about its troubled production souring public perception before it hit theaters. The (American, at least) public had already made up its mind about Waterworld before they'd seen a frame of it.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:34
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Tweezer Reprise posted:yeah, from what I understand historiographically during the early days of the Rashudin caliphate Islam wasn’t even a fully fleshed-out different religion in the minds of the people on the ground and in the armies. In a lot of the conquered Byzantine lands, the invaders might have even been seen is preferable to the Christians who had been lording over them for centuries. Islam started out as basically Muhammad trying to fix the things that he didn't like about the local Christianity, it's very clearly the same religion but with some additional stuff. But because it has a new book and also a pretty clear political boundary, it became it's own religion instead of a sect like the Mormons, who are otherwise the best comparison. Also, you definitely get Christians who would not recognise Eastern Christianity as real Christianity, and the more radical you get, the more sects are considered not Christians. I think some American evangelicals refuse to accept Catholics as true Christians, which is pretty nuts.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:37
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BonHair posted:I think some American evangelicals refuse to accept Catholics as true Christians, which is pretty nuts. which is, like, if you're grifting for political power, you should get with the times and throw away old sectarian differences and link hands with the Catholics and Mormons and whoever on the religious right! Vatican II, baby! Get it together, snakehandlers.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:41
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I mean, that crusade was against pagans, it's not exactly a case of attacking other Christians. Not that they wouldn't, but that's not what was happening. Of course it probably did help divert Christian warmongering away from each other until the Lithuanians finally converted a mere century before Europe started spreading Christianity into the Americas. How soon we forget Albigensians and others.
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Feb 27, 2021 15:02
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Private Speech posted:How soon we forget Albigensians and others. BonHair posted:I think some American evangelicals refuse to accept Catholics as true Christians, which is pretty nuts. Of course, I sometimes wonder if the opposite might not also be the case in parts of Protestant Europe. The Pope isn't exactly treated as the leader of a heretical branch of Christianity, so if you're just "culturally Christian" you might think he's your religious leader because he gets infinitely more airtime (as a religious leader) than the actual head of your religion.
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Feb 27, 2021 15:21
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The Pope isn't exactly treated as the leader of a heretical branch of Christianity, so if you're just "culturally Christian" you might think he's your religious leader because he gets infinitely more airtime (as a religious leader) than the actual head of your religion. 
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Feb 27, 2021 15:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Of course, I sometimes wonder if the opposite might not also be the case in parts of Protestant Europe. The Pope isn't exactly treated as the leader of a heretical branch of Christianity, so if you're just "culturally Christian" you might think he's your religious leader because he gets infinitely more airtime (as a religious leader) than the actual head of your religion. Doesn't happen.
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Feb 27, 2021 15:46
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Reminder that a DUP moron tried to fistfight the pope and got beaten up by a Hapsburg in living memory.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:12
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Waterworld was a symbol of decadent Hollywood excess. It wasn't just expensive, it was something like 3.5x as expensive as the most expensive movie ever made to that point in history. I remember hearing tons of people whinging about that. Late night talk shows used "Waterworld" as a punchline for anything about wasted money or budgets. So wasteful. Feed the children. It was the story of the movie. I know people who refused to watch the movie, out of spite, because it was so expensive. If we adjust for inflation, it's still an expensive movie, but that range of budget is now commonplace: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_films#Most_expensive_films_(adjusted_for_inflation) consider this a map Note how few movies on that list were made before 2000: Waterworld, Armageddon, Wild Wild West, Cleopatra, Superman, and Titanic. Waterworld only held that record for two years, too. I'm pretty sure with Titanic the marketing team was prepared to spin the big cost instead of letting cranky talking heads decide what the story of the movie was going to be. For months before Titanic came out there were TV specials and spots showing off all of the tech and going "it was expensive but wowee it was worth it Hollywood magic I can't wait to see this movie!" And now it's normal for a tentpost blockbuster to spend that kind of money. The funny thing is that Waterworld didn't lose money - it produced bigger net profit than most major studio movies' gross box office reciepts.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:18
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I've read some British writings from around the colonisation of Ireland where they harp on about how the Irish aren't even perfidious Papists but savage moon worshipping pagans who, like Wild Injuns, aren't even using their land properly and are also descendants of Scythian who arrived from the Orient and massacred the native Britons and thus have no claim to Ireland at all.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:21
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BonHair posted:Islam started out as basically Muhammad trying to fix the things that he didn't like about the local Christianity, it's very clearly the same religion but with some additional stuff. But because it has a new book and also a pretty clear political boundary, it became it's own religion instead of a sect like the Mormons, who are otherwise the best comparison. I think that the argument that Islam is an offshoot of Judaism is stronger, although even this is problematic. There are alot of influences from the Pre-Islamic Arab religion mixed in. The influence from Christianity is basically the appearance of Jesus and Mary (and John the Baptist) in the Quran. Hijaz and Medina in particular had a very large Jewish population.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:41
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BonHair posted:I think some American evangelicals refuse to accept Catholics as true Christians, which is pretty nuts. I met one guy that did try to convince me that Catholics aren't Christians, so that tracks.
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Feb 27, 2021 17:37
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