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The British sense of humour is shite.
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Feb 27, 2021 12:26
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Jakabite posted:I hope that's made sense, anyway. Essentially I agree with namesake but we do need to have at least some level of sympathy at the top, an amount to stop them ruthlessly cracking down on every single one of our tactics while killing and exhausting fellow members of the working class. Sympathy is, at best, completely unreliable. Accountability to an explicit leftwing base is vastly better but is in conflict with getting power through liberal democracy which, as I discussed, is about taking action in defence of the ruling class and even talking about elected officials relies on the UK electorate which is massively rightwing in many seats. Going back to Labour it's in the exact opposite position we'd want as it is getting rid of any member who confesses to be leftwing, so there's no control mechanisms at any level to maintain accountability. Given what's just happened in UK politics is it really harder to just set up a new leftwing party which can then perhaps take and use state power to strengthen the left than clear out Labour, regain trust from everyone and then take state power? No matter what your answer, are the conditions there to get that party into a place of usefulness and if not then what else needs to be done first? Yvonmukluk posted:I was listening to the latest episode of the Revolutions podcast and it actually was talking about how Lenin was actually in favour of participating in the Duma when material conditions weren't in favour of conventional revolutionary activity (this was circa 1906/07). Aside from the specific differences between then and now the issue isn't just about participation, it's about representation - they were debating whether socialists should bother trying to enter the Duma at all, the discussion we're having is 'should socialists run for parliament in an explicitly socialist party' as Labour does not qualify as that.
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Feb 27, 2021 12:40
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Jakabite posted:The natural beauty, the sense of humour, pies, contribution to music, film and tv, Sunday roasts, pubs... like, as leftists we shouldn’t be having to have a conversation about how there’s more to life than what you make and produce. People like things about the country they live in. Hell, I like things about this place (mainly the above). I like the rural northern community I grew up in, for all its flaws. There are plenty of good things about Britain and being British that aren’t anything to do with great national accomplishments and more just like, part of being from here and living here. I like that I'll be alive for the end of the United Kingdom, that's good. Our contributions to music, yeah, I'll grant you that but at the same time that's hardly unique. The '90s Oslo black metal scene is as important to me as anything to come out of the UK. And most of it is in the past, outside of a few exceptions. Because you need money to be able to start out, where you get Mumford & Sons type pish, or you need incredible drive, like with the grime & drill scenes. So again, a lot of it backwards looking. I think Scotland is beautiful. But the seas lochs of the west coast are no more or less beautiful than the Norwegian fjords. The stark emptiness of Rannoch Moor is impressive, awe-inspiring even, but far from unique. I love the view I have walking 10 metres from my front door, looking out across the Moray Firth at Inverness, the Black Isle, & on a good day even being able to see the peaks of the Northwest Highland range like Ben Wyvis. I'm sure if I lived in the shadows of the Matterhorn I'd be similarly awe-struck by the Alps. There's really nothing unique about Britain. And that's the point, it's just a place. It has positives & negatives like every where. We can freely pop the bubbles of ignorance that people have about the country's history, & indeed it's present. I'm an internationalist. I doubt I'll ever be waver from thinking we would be better served making a case for internationalism rather than playing to inward & backward looking nationalism. Unless that backward looking nationalism means the breakup of the UK, in which case I'm for it.
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Feb 27, 2021 12:41
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I could like england just fine if it wasn't for all the shitheads living there
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Feb 27, 2021 12:46
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I get the feeling my latent nationalism is showing by the fact I've spent the last half hour watching videos of Vulcan and Concorde flypasts, but a thought occurred to me while I was watching them about just how *hollow* the nationalism is these days. Both of these are products of a Britain that genuinely did believe it was a world leader (and in fact was in a lot of important ways - neither the Soviets nor the Americans could get their Concorde equivalents to work, but two tinpot ex-imperial powers managed it with a tenth the resources). Tony Benn didn't need to make sure there was always a flag behind him or that he wore his poppy in exactly the right way, he built poo poo like the Post Office Tower and Concorde, and unswervingly defended things like the NHS and the welfare state. He made the country something to be proud of, rather than being performatively proud of it while ripping the plumbing out of the walls. A good post. And this is what Johnson appeals to with his airport islands, retro-styled hybrid buses and giant subterranean roundabouts under the Isle of Man. But they are also mostly performative and thrown out there to create the image of "Boris and his optimistic vision" and selling the idea that, on a relatively small scale, things can be better - Heathrow is overcrowded and in a stupid place with awkward transport links and it Risks London's Status As A Global Hub City and the solution isn't just tinkering with what we've got or kicking the can down the road, but a first-rank mega engineering project that does away with the old and brings in something grand, bigger, better and comparable to anything else in the world. It's the New Jerusalem for international airports. Now, of course Boris Island never happened, never will and was massively flawed (being close to a shipwreck full of an atom-bomb's worth of explosives, wiping out several globally important migratory bird habitats etc.) but Johnson knows that the lustre of these grandiose visions puts him personally in a good light with very many people. If a (theoretical for now...) Labour that actually wanted to change things for the better came along, they would do very well to tap into that sort of thing, but (as in your Tony Benn example) do it for both the flagship prestige projects (modern equivalents of Concorde, GPO Towers) and the big-scale everyday stuff that benefits everyone both individually and society/nation as a whole (NHS, NES, British Rail 2.0, British Broadband etc.) The reason I think patriotism has been so subsumed into nationalism, and why that nationalism has become so shallow, is that there's gently caress all to actually feel proud of in Britain in 2021 in the here and now of your everyday life. So it becomes all about the maximum number of Union Jacks, Brexit being lovely to foreigners and...then it's all about harking back to the mythologised past or Protecting History From Woke Warriors. Everything tangible that would otherwise say 'You Are Part Of A Society' - your phone/broadband service, your bus and train service, your kid's education, your TV programs, your postal service, has been fragmented, starved to the point of uselessness, sold off to private companies or just obliterated from existence. Your city's roundabouts can't even have flowers on them unless they're sponsored by a local solicitor's firm or a van dealership. Even the loving search and rescue helicopter that hooks you out of the water when you fall off a rock when you go on holiday to the beach - your 'society' doesn't even think people should be rescued from drowning in the sea without a private company making a profit off of it somewhere along the line. As I recounted at the time, when I walked through town on the evening of the 2019 GE, in an unwarranted haze of Hope, I was actually looking forward to being unabashedly proud of my country for the first time in my adult life - we were (probably - I was never deluded enough to think it was a certainty...) going to elect a government that believed in doing good things and it would be genuinely good to say "Yes, I come from the society where we did [insert good 2019 Labour policy here because it's too depressing to be specific]" Of course we got the opposite, but as twisto said, all that proves is that there's a big and seemingly undiminishing demand for that sort of vision. It just needs to be articulated in that way and then actually delivered in a way that I tangible, rather than just basking in the good publicity of the idea as Phase 1 and using it as a chance to throw £billions at your chums for consultancy/planning work as Phase 2 and...there are no more phases. Back in the Before Times I did vaguely wonder if this was the sort of thing Starmer would bring to the table but...well....we know how that goes
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Feb 27, 2021 12:52
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forkboy84 posted:I like that I'll be alive for the end of the United Kingdom, that's good. Our contributions to music, yeah, I'll grant you that but at the same time that's hardly unique. The '90s Oslo black metal scene is as important to me as anything to come out of the UK. And most of it is in the past, outside of a few exceptions. Because you need money to be able to start out, where you get Mumford & Sons type pish, or you need incredible drive, like with the grime & drill scenes. So again, a lot of it backwards looking. I'm fundamentally an internationalist too but honestly hanging round with lefties more has actually made me like Britain more. Maybe it's the contrarian in me. What the left needs to realise though is that most people are not internationalists. That doesn't necessarily mean they're nationalists but almost no one outside the lefty bubble reacts well to being told that where they're from is poo poo, unless it's in the sort of affectionate way. I find the uniqueness thing is weird. Nowhere is unique. The Matterhorn is just another massive snowy mountain in a world of massive snowy mountains. Barbados is another white beach with an azure sea and palm trees, there's loads of those. You could apply it to anywhere but that doesn't mean you can't like your bit because it's your bit where you are. I appreciate that we're in our echo chamber here so it's all fine for us to be miserable cunts but it's when it leaks outside the movement that it becomes an issue. The left has a reputation for being a bunch miserable misanthropic assholes who like to suck the joy out of everything they can, and it's not exactly unearnt. @ namesake: agreed, I wasn't arguing for Labour entryism - that's one route for sure but I agree not necessarily the best one. Just that you can't abandon the traditional power structures entirely or they'll crush your upstart movement like so many flies.
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Feb 27, 2021 12:55
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lol imagine liking britain what the gently caress
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Feb 27, 2021 13:02
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I like the place where I live but I don't remotely connect that with "britain" because it's not. It's one tiny part of it. I like the place I live because it is familiar, I would presumably like anywhere I was familiar enough with. Most of the things I like about it are entirely at odds with britain the national entity, because britain the national entity is responsible for making where I live worse. I like where I live in spite of it being british. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 13:07
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OwlFancier posted:I like the place where I live but I don't remotely connect that with "britain" because it's not. It's one tiny part of it. I like the place I live because it is familiar, I would presumably like anywhere I was familiar enough with. But surely you accept that there are elements of that place that share a commonality with the rest of Britain? I think we're from a similar area if I remember rightly and I find that place hard to disconnect from its surrounding country. If where I was from wasn't in Britain it wouldn't be that place, it would be a different place. Extracting a place from the context in which it sits is a strange thing to do, to me.
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Feb 27, 2021 13:10
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As I edited in, no, the "britishness" is a threat to it, not a benefit. Britain is what destroys jobs because they're not maximally profitable any more, britain is what dismantles council housing, britain is what puts lovely politicians in to build lovely houses in the forests and fields that sell for way more than they're worth and fall apart afterwards, britain is what rips out bus routes in the name of funding cuts, britain is the pressures that hollow out my home, britain is the enemy. I keep saying this but my dislike of nationalism isn't an affectation, it's just the logical result of me living in the time and place I live in. Britain has never done anything for me, Britain and the people who like it would be happier if I were dead, why should I have any fondness for it? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 13:11
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I like some bits of living in Britain, but mostly the pretty bits without any people in, and the bits that the public seem determined to destroy, like the NHS and not getting thrown in jail for saying you hate this miserable island and it's population of degenerate fish people
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Feb 27, 2021 13:12
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God bless capn Tom and his massive funeral. That'll be +4 points to Bojo
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Feb 27, 2021 13:32
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https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1365621593154666496 RIP Ed Milliband I guess E: Lol looks like it's coordinated too https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/1365622984757686272?s=19
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Feb 27, 2021 13:33
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forkboy84 posted:I like ScotLab's dedication to looking at Head Office & deciding "gosh, we can be worse than them!" They're positioning themselves to be the sensible centrist party after independence, I think.
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Feb 27, 2021 13:40
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does someone have a brief summary of what the nominal legal/political process of scotland becoming independent would actually look like? like, if they held a referendum and it passed, then what happens?
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Feb 27, 2021 13:45
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OwlFancier posted:As I edited in, no, the "britishness" is a threat to it, not a benefit. I mean the British government is those things, but you can’t reduce a country to its state. Well, you could argue that you can, but to come to the original point of how to actually get people on side, very few people would or do consider that sensible. Britain has everything to do with where you live whether you like that or not. The vast majority of things that would be considered Teesside culture are also British culture.
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Feb 27, 2021 13:52
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I like Yorkshire. Its mostly left wing, has loads of great food and the people are ace. The Internet is poo poo coming from Europe but that seems to be all the UK. Also Henderson's relish is amazing. I don't identify with Britain at all and having read a lot about its history and knowing the assholes in charge... I can't be proud of it. I won't deny that I quite like some bits of it. Silly as it is.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:04
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Jakabite posted:I mean the British government is those things, but you can’t reduce a country to its state. Well, you could argue that you can, but to come to the original point of how to actually get people on side, very few people would or do consider that sensible. Britain has everything to do with where you live whether you like that or not. The vast majority of things that would be considered Teesside culture are also British culture. I have no idea what "teesside culture" is supposed to be. Whatever it is I don't interact with it. I'm pretty sure people have jobs and buy food all over the world so I don't think that is either british or "teesside". Houses exist everywhere, everywhere has shopping centers and churches and roads and poo poo. I just like the specific placements of the ones near me because they are familiar and I don't have to think about them very much, and I feel that way because I have lived in the same place my entire life and it has worn grooves in my brain, there isn't anything particularly special about it other than that. If I had lived somewhere else I would feel that way about it, too. That is just a thing that happens to people. It would be ridiculous to suggest that there is something actually unique about the place rather than that all humans simply have a capacity to become well adapted to their environment over time. It's like the idea of a soulmate but for where you live or something, just as stupid and just as wrong. The absolute best you can offer me is "well british national efforts also built a lot of those things" and that is true, but the people who did that are dead, what do they want, a medal? In my lifetime it hasn't built anything, it has only destroyed, and I am tired of being told I should still love it despite that. It's not a real thing, it's just this vague cloud of good feelings you're supposed to have when you see the flag and the queen and the PM or whatever. It's not connected to anything real. People work, shop, live in houses, go to the beach all over the planet, it's not british or teeside or anything else, it's just human. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 14:04
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Henderson's relish is discount lea and Perrin's
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Feb 27, 2021 14:09
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Jose posted:Henderson's relish is discount lea and Perrin's The words that are guaranteed to start a fight in Yorkshire.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:14
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It seriously lacks the Depth of l&p which I assume is because it's not got anchovies in that give it way more umami
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Feb 27, 2021 14:15
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OwlFancier posted:It's not a real thing, it's just this vague cloud of good feelings you're supposed to have when you see the flag and the queen and the PM or whatever. It's not connected to anything real. That's exactly what it's been reduced to, because for 40+ years the people in charge haven't believed that government/the state should (later replaced by could) do anything and that society doesn't exist. There's very little to connect people's lives in Teeside with the cream-teas-and-bunting-while-the-Spitfire-drops-poppies version of what passes for British identity today. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. Not to set aside all the very, very bad things Britain has done, within and outside these islands, but in the past (like the period twisto was talking about) it did also used to do pretty good things, on the deeply unfashionable premise that the state, nation and society were all linked so you could build council houses, nationalise the railways and develop gloriously pointless supersonic airliners under public management and with socialised funding because it made the place as a whole a bit better, more cohesive, a little more advanced and more enjoyable to live in.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:15
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As a next door neighbour Britain is nice enough. I don't think I'd want to live there because the lad culture and casual racism seems generally a bit worse than in Ireland (certainly the anti-Irish racism), and that's the kind of thing that grates on me here. Both countries have deeply poo poo national cuisines but plenty of foreign-types have moved to this cursed archipelago and brought their spices with them. Both countries also however elect nothing but useless fuckmen, which is a problem
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Feb 27, 2021 14:17
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bump_fn posted:does someone have a brief summary of what the nominal legal/political process of scotland becoming independent would actually look like? like, if they held a referendum and it passed, then what happens? Literally nothing. That's not even a cynical/sarcastic answer - there is no mechanism in British law for it to happen, so it would need new primary legislation in Westminster and given all of the main UK-wide parties are unionist it's incredibly unlikely.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:21
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BalloonFish posted:That's exactly what it's been reduced to, because for 40+ years the people in charge haven't believed that government/the state should (later replaced by could) do anything and that society doesn't exist. There's very little to connect people's lives in Teeside with the cream-teas-and-bunting-while-the-Spitfire-drops-poppies version of what passes for British identity today. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. That, again, though, is not "british", people all over the world have done that at one point or another, I think people would do that all the time if not for things like british national idealism. Because it is much easier to sit on your arse and rub poppies on your dick while thinking about the queen than it is to actually do all that poo poo. People are capable of improving their lot in life off their own back, people put up shelter, grow food, make things easier for themselves of their own volition and have all over the planet for all of human history. What is stopping people from doing that is exactly this stupid commodified nationalist-capitalist horseshit culture and societal structure that says no, you can't improve your life, you can't control your home, you can't control your job, you can't excercise your basic human capability for tool use and constructiveness to improve anything, all you can do is love the flag and consume and let britain sort all that out for you. Because britain loves you, despite all evidence to the contrary, and you must love it back all the way into your grave, which will be all the sooner for britain's efforts. Britishness and nationalism in general is nothing but a loving skinner box. When it very, very rarely morphs into something capable of getting out of the way and letting human nature flourish, why does it then get credit for the thing it normally obstructs? Why do we parse the idea of human self improvement as good nationalism? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 14:22
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Jose posted:Henderson's relish is discount lea and Perrin's Ok let's take this outside right now.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:25
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Literally nothing. That's not even a cynical/sarcastic answer - there is no mechanism in British law for it to happen, so it would need new primary legislation in Westminster and given all of the main UK-wide parties are unionist it's incredibly unlikely. There's a mechanism for NI independence, but it turns out Westminster can just go "lalalala can't hear you" when asked about it
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Feb 27, 2021 14:25
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OwlFancier posted:I have no idea what "teesside culture" is supposed to be. Whatever it is I don't interact with it. I'm pretty sure people have jobs and buy food all over the world so I don't think that is either british or "teesside". Houses exist everywhere, everywhere has shopping centers and churches and roads and poo poo. I just like the specific placements of the ones near me because they are familiar and I don't have to think about them very much, and I feel that way because I have lived in the same place my entire life and it has worn grooves in my brain, there isn't anything particularly special about it other than that. If I had lived somewhere else I would feel that way about it, too. That is just a thing that happens to people. It would be ridiculous to suggest that there is something actually unique about the place rather than that all humans simply have a capacity to become well adapted to their environment over time. It's like the idea of a soulmate but for where you live or something, just as stupid and just as wrong. I feel like you're now arguing that there's no such thing as local culture at all, which is just sad. Sorry that you don't know about parmos, Club Bongo, lemon tops or the doggers on the South Gare I guess. It's this sort of thing that repulses people from the left. 'Well I really like these aspects of where I'm from, I see them as part of my culture and what roots me and unites me and the pe'- ERR ACTUALLY none of that is unique and you only like it cos you live here you pathetic cultural zombie!!!!
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Feb 27, 2021 14:26
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OwlFancier posted:
If you take all the ills that belong to capitalism, racism, imperialism and even slavery and say they are in the bin labeled _Britain_, then there sure are a lot of bad things in that bin. Problem is, if you throw out the British bin, the bad things don’t go away with it. Capitalism is what it is under any flag. Whereas if you tip out the other bins, then what’s left doesn’t smell anything like as bad Proof: any British ex-colony, especially America.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:27
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Smack barm. pey wet
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Feb 27, 2021 14:27
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TheRat posted:https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1365621593154666496 Disraeli and Michael Howard too, right?
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Feb 27, 2021 14:28
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Failed Imagineer posted:Both countries also however elect nothing but useless fuckmen, which is a problem I mean, bit of an international problem rn. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the Boomers finally die off.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:29
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BalloonFish posted:That's exactly what it's been reduced to, because for 40+ years the people in charge haven't believed that government/the state should (later replaced by could) do anything and that society doesn't exist. There's very little to connect people's lives in Teeside with the cream-teas-and-bunting-while-the-Spitfire-drops-poppies version of what passes for British identity today. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. There really doesn't seem to be much in the way of big projects like that other than the ones mentioned that Boris pulled out of his goonhole and had no intention of even starting beyond the throwing money around phase, but perhaps we're moving back towards something like that again with (to pull two examples from recent press) the big vaccine initiatives and the fusion stuff. Doesn't even matter if the latter works (former working is pretty important) but more about the social scale that people are thinking on.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:33
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Jakabite posted:I feel like you're now arguing that there's no such thing as local culture at all, which is just sad. Sorry that you don't know about parmos, Club Bongo, lemon tops or the doggers on the South Gare I guess. It's this sort of thing that repulses people from the left. 'Well I really like these aspects of where I'm from, I see them as part of my culture and what roots me and unites me and the pe'- ERR ACTUALLY none of that is unique and you only like it cos you live here you pathetic cultural zombie!!!! You are doing exactly the thing I am describing, yes, I know that people where I live often eat chicken with cheese on, I also know that they put lemon on ice cream. But I don't get somehow misty eyed and waving a boro kit around thinking about them, they're there if I want them but why do I need to believe they are super unique and special? Why do you feel personally attacked by my lack of appropriate reverence for them? Everywhere in the world has local oddities, because that's just a thing people do. Every town has some locally famous place that serves a popular formulation of foods, they will all have people who think they're the best thing in the world, and that's great, I'm glad they enjoy them, but why is it so desperately important to you that I believe that the one I happen to grow up in is very special and unique and could not be replicated anywhere else? This doesn't make you a "cultural zombie" it makes you human. If you think that understanding that everybody on the planet is capable of forming the same connections with wherever they live somehow diminishes the validity of your connection, that's just... wrong? And if you need me to pretend that yes, you are very special and where you live is very uniquely different and exceptional just so that you don't feel threatened by the possibility that your experience might be universal... well sorry, I can't. You're complaining that I think everywhere on earth is meaningful to its inhabitants, and saying that I'm a miserable lefty because I don't think the UK or the specific part of it that I live in is actually extra special above all the other places. You are sounding extremely gammony when you do this. Why is it not good enough for you that people can become happy with where they live, why does where you live have to be actually better? Why is thinking that so very important to you? It's not important to me, because it's not real. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 14:39
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Jakabite posted:The natural beauty, the sense of humour, pies, contribution to music, film and tv, Sunday roasts, pubs... like, as leftists we shouldn’t be having to have a conversation about how there’s more to life than what you make and produce. People like things about the country they live in. The natural beauty has sweaty tattooed men barking at each other whenever the weather even remotely picks up and bags of dogshit hanging from everything. Pies are nice I guess, if they weren't filled with cat scrote and gristle and usually made in another country and heated up here. Same with sunday dinners unless you're lucky enough to live in a nice area, which I feel like should be an automatic proviso for anyone defending parts of Britain - going back to the first point, where's the natural beauty in a dog being sick outide a flat roof pub? Our contribution to music includes Liam Gallagher and Simon Cowell, which automatically invalidates everything else. Britain is great. British people are usually dogshit. peanut- posted:House price must only go up This image has been doing the rounds on normal social media and I think about it a lot: 
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Feb 27, 2021 14:40
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Guavanaut posted:I'd guess it's something that materially waxes and wanes too, it seems like the 90s end of history the-state-can't-do-anything let's dotcom our society era came off the back of one of big science that was way beyond the level of individuals (nuclear reactors, Concorde, GPO radio relay, the internet itself) into one that at least glorified the idea of a couple of people in a garage changing history with techbro spirit and the idea of "you can do it yourself" ([Adam Curtis music] but this was an illusion). Rishi is clearly itching to get stuck into austerity 2 so I wouldn't bet on it. Britain will be the morons who decide the way out of this crisis is to cut investment, and again serve as the useful economic counterexample for the rest of the world.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:40
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the 2012 joobolympic ceremony has itself become a worn out myth imo
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Feb 27, 2021 14:40
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edit: gone
Convex fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 14:44
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Jose posted:Henderson's relish is discount lea and Perrin's Mods!???
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Feb 27, 2021 14:45
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I think any kind of left/progressive patriotism is somewhat doomed from the start, since it will inevitably get attacked from both the right for not being patriotic in the right ways or enough, and from the left for covering up the crimes of empire/nationalism. It seems like a good plan (as evidenced by the fact that Burnham, RLB and many others keep trotting it out) but I think it's a very tough tightrope to walk.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:45
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