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has magic in the 616 ever been that you can only learn it, you can never have an innate talent for it?
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Feb 28, 2021 05:27
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site posted:has magic in the 616 ever been that you can only learn it, you can never have an innate talent for it? Other than Wanda I can't think of a single character who can just do magic without either learning it or getting ahold of a magic artifact that isn't also a mutant (Illyana).
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Feb 28, 2021 05:32
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that's literally the idea behind strange academy tho
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Feb 28, 2021 05:34
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site posted:that's literally the idea behind strange academy tho I never read it. Is it that they can already do it or that, like strange, that have an aptitude for it?
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Feb 28, 2021 05:40
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BrianWilly posted:Doctor Strange had to study magic in order to learn it, Wanda was able to do it naturally. This has always been their case, the difference between them. And Vision's brain is based off of Wonderman. The movies are different, is the point.
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Feb 28, 2021 05:42
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Vince MechMahon posted:I never read it. Is it that they can already do it or that, like strange, that have an aptitude for it? The main character is a girl who has a normal non magical family and just discovered she can use magic as a child who gets offered a chance at the magic equivalent of the Xavier school. Some students are innately magic and know it, some aren't
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Feb 28, 2021 05:45
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I was thinking Nico Minoru but I forget if the Staff of One is just a focusing tool or whatever. Also, hey, while we're talking bullshit retcons, Avengers Disassembled Dr. Strange going "but Wanda, there's no such thing as CHAOS MAGIC" was dumb as all hell.
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Feb 28, 2021 05:49
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There are characters who were born under some special magical circumstances or bloodlines, like Nico Minoru, but their powers tend to be very specialized, almost like having a magic-based superpower instead of being a spellcaster. Which isn't dramatically different from how Wanda started off, but her affinity was directly tied to her mutation. Having an innate talent for magic usually just means it comes more naturally to you, but you still can't do it without old-fashioned book-learning, the way Strange did, or Doom, or Agatha herself. Loki's a god and even he had to study magic to learn it. Most of the students of Strange Academy are from mythical, extra-dimensional origins. The one character who seems to be a normal human who could do magic naturally is Emily, and it's too soon to know what her deal is. The MCU's not gonna care about this book, anyway. Retro Futurist posted:And Vision's brain is based off of Wonderman. The movies are different, is the point.
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Feb 28, 2021 05:53
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I don't think there has been anything in the 8 issues that has contradicted the premise, unless I'm misremembering. Which is a possibility. I'm skeptical of discarding the entire notion because of something that might happen, otherwise it might disrupt your world view, tho site fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Feb 28, 2021 |
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Feb 28, 2021 06:02
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Yeah I don't think they explicitly said she's not a mutant but it seemed like inventing the "Scarlet Witch is a reincarnating magic goddess entity" thing was to replace her mutant origin not confirm it. Felt like the final nail in the coffin to me but I guess we'll see.
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Feb 28, 2021 06:07
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It's not as if it's mutually exclusive. The Scarlet Witch loredrop mostly seems, to me, like a way to finally get her superhero name into MCU canon, and it was done pretty well. But again, if they only wanted her to be some sort of destined witch, they could have kept her MCU origins exactly like it was: the Mind Stone gave her that power and that's why she can do magic like this, the end. Instead, they went out of their way to retcon that she already had powers...and more, that it's exactly her original comics mutant powers. It also doesn't explain Pietro. If she "just" had some sort of magical destiny, and we know now the Mind Stone wasn't just handing out powers willy-nilly but that hers was somehow always there and merely amplified, then how did her brother end up with superspeed? It makes sense if they're both genetic mutants. Otherwise you have to come up with some convoluted "She secretly gave her brother powers by wishing really hard" explanation.
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Feb 28, 2021 06:31
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So a infinity gem enhanced mutant probability hex is okay but an innate magical hex with an infinity gem boost is not okay. Cool, just checking
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Feb 28, 2021 06:56
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I mean, it seems to me that it's clear Wanda and Pietro are indeed mutants.
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Feb 28, 2021 07:32
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Also she just says A Scarlet Witch not THE Scarlet Witch. For all we know witch power levels are classified by power rankings named after colors and that just means she's real good at it, we don't have anything concrete about it being a reincarnation or prophecy situation yet.
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Feb 28, 2021 07:36
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Everyone knows that black belt is the best level of karate but does everyone know that scarlet is the best level of magic?
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Feb 28, 2021 07:39
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site posted:So a infinity gem enhanced mutant probability hex is okay but an innate magical hex with an infinity gem boost is not okay. Cool, just checking We know now that the Infinity Stone didn't give Wanda powers; it may have messed with or increased them -- the exact word used in the episode was "amplified" -- but she always had them and was able to cast a probability hex at age ten. This power might be some sort of inborn magical destiny exclusive to Wanda. On the one hand, Agatha calls her a "baby witch," but also finds it strange that Wanda doesn't know any actual witchcraft. We also don't know yet if witches in this canon are born with power at all or could use them without training (Though we know that sorcerers do require training and aren't just innately magical). From what Agatha says, she definitely learned magic the hard way and couldn't just cast spells by raw force of will as a child, even though her own mother was a witch. On the other hand, casting probability hexes was Wanda's comic book mutant power described to a tee, which the writers of this show obviously know. If she and her brother are mutants, it would also explain how Pietro wound up with powers as well since, again, the Mind Stone simply boosted what was already there instead of grafting powers on the fly. In fact, at this point we don't even know if Pietro ever did receive anything from the Mind Stone; looking back, it was actually never suggested at all that he ever interacted with it. Either way, there being something genetically-special about the twins seems more likely than that Pietro was the secret incarnation of Quicksilver the Speed Wizard, or something. It's not literally outright impossible that Wanda is "just" innately magical, but there's plenty of indicators that the show is teasing otherwise. They can reference mutants now; the only reason they had the Mind Stone origin for MCU Wanda was because they didn't own mutants before, but now that impediment is gone, and already we see them backtracking on that origin. They brought in someone who literally everyone in the audience would recognize as an actual mutant from the films with mutants. They refer to Wanda's original powers, that she displayed as a child, by the name of her mutant powers. Seems pretty silly to wave all of that off as coincidence, but hey do whatever.
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Feb 28, 2021 07:47
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Vince MechMahon posted:Also she just says A Scarlet Witch not THE Scarlet Witch. For all we know witch power levels are classified by power rankings named after colors and that just means she's real good at it, we don't have anything concrete about it being a reincarnation or prophecy situation yet. She does in fact say "And that makes you the Scarlet Witch!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F1348o-e9s&t=24s
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Feb 28, 2021 07:59
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BrianWilly posted:It also doesn't explain Pietro. If she "just" had some sort of magical destiny, and we know now the Mind Stone wasn't just handing out powers willy-nilly but that hers was somehow always there and merely amplified, then how did her brother end up with superspeed? It makes sense if they're both genetic mutants. Otherwise you have to come up with some convoluted "She secretly gave her brother powers by wishing really hard" explanation. Honestly given what we now know, "secretly gave her brother powers" is not nearly as convoluted an explanation as you think it is. I mean, Agatha was able to give Fietro super speed and she doesn't have Infinity Gem juice. Look, I'm not saying mutants are off the board, maybe Pietro was one. But when it comes to Wanda, we just had an episode where they have a character spell out in pretty excruciating detail that Wanda's a witch that got juiced up by the Mind Stone and it sounds like the "Scarlet Witch" is some sort of title/witch legend/Chosen One deal.
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Feb 28, 2021 09:17
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FilthyImp posted:I was thinking Nico Minoru but I forget if the Staff of One is just a focusing tool or whatever. It got retconned basically immediately, if I recall correctly.
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Feb 28, 2021 09:35
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Again, the fact that the Scarlet Witch is some type of legendary mythic witch title is not mutually exclusive with Wanda being a mutant. On the contrary, the fact that no witch is supposed to be able to do what Wanda does just lends more weight to the possibility that she can only do these things, perform chaos magic, thanks to her mutation. I feel like you guys have enforced this arbitrary mental divide between having magical powers and having mutant powers. For OG Wanda, they were one and the same. And especially in the MCU, there's even less distinction between magic and very advanced science. Monica's new powers are scientific in nature -- her cells have been rewritten -- and yet they came from Wanda's hex magic. And we actually don't know that Agatha gave Fietro super speed. Even now Fietro's real origins are conspicuously unrevealed. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Feb 28, 2021 |
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Feb 28, 2021 09:39
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Rhyno posted:Everyone knows that black belt is the best level of karate but does everyone know that scarlet is the best level of magic? But it's only the best level, until you meet threats of that level. Then you have to train until you reach Black Belt level 2*. And then the Cell Saga happens and you have to go beyond and reach Black Belt level 3. And by the end you go Ultra Instinct Black Belt * = But seriously there are like ten levels of Black Belt. It's like anime but real life.
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Feb 28, 2021 10:48
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fake Pietro saying that the fast kid got goes fast powers from being a Maximoff implies that at least Agatha thinks Wanda thinks either Pietro had innate goes fast abilities or that he got whammied so hard by a space rock that his powers became genetically inheritable through his twin
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Feb 28, 2021 14:32
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Karma Tornado posted:fake Pietro saying that the fast kid got goes fast powers from being a Maximoff implies that at least Agatha thinks Wanda thinks either Pietro had innate goes fast abilities or that he got whammied so hard by a space rock that his powers became genetically inheritable through his twin Agatha didn't have that information yet.
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Feb 28, 2021 15:07
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yeah but she made Pietro say it and Wanda didn't question it, so she had at least an educated guess going. I presume Agatha has some degree of telepathy going on in order to do what she's been doing, so the flashbacks were maybe more about her confirming suspicions than actually fact finding
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Feb 28, 2021 15:18
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The disconnect isn't between Magic and Science here, the reason why people are arguing that these reveals don't necessarily spell out Mutant is because they don't. Doesn't mean they still won't but this last episode had plenty of time to drop a line about genetics or mutation or Pietro's speed and instead we got new witch lore. It could be a situation like the Phoenix where her innate mutant power is what attracted the cosmic entity but until they come out and say it, she's only been revealed to be a special witch who got a power up from an infinity stone. We already knew there was something special about them and that's why they didn't die when exposed to the mind stone so this reveal doesn't seem to put us any closer to mutants.
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Feb 28, 2021 17:29
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Basically without the scaffolding the X-Men story having someone tell her "you're a mutant Wanda!" only means stuff to viewers, not to the show world. She'd be like "what, like those turtle ninjas?"
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Feb 28, 2021 18:10
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It also wouldn't make sense for Agatha to be particularly informed about mutation, anyway. She'd be coming at this from the magic angle, filling in one side of the blanks based on her considerable expertise as a witch. You'd have to expect someone with an understanding of genetics to be able to loredump the other half of the equation, be it a certain doctor or any other doctor available.
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Feb 28, 2021 18:57
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Definitely and if the episode ended with a "What are you?" or a "Why did it choose you, what's special about you?" then I'd be right there with you guys but Agatha(the expert) seemed satisfied with the answer "You're The Scarlet Witch TM Harry!". Now that could all change this week, Agatha could wrong or misunderstanding the x gene behind it all, but I'm going to wait and see if we get something more substantial because "was always good at magic" is a common fantasy trope that doesn't need a scientific explanation and muddying the magic powers with mutant ability is comic book thinking and not what I expect to see in the more cleaned up and streamlined MCU. I will however be excited to be wrong because I'm partial to her mutant origins and Mutants in general.
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Feb 28, 2021 19:47
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I think she says A Scarlet Witch.
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Feb 28, 2021 19:52
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Rhyno posted:I think she says A Scarlet Witch. From this same page, Agatha doesn't put the emphasis on "the" but it's still very cleary "The Scarlet Witch" and not "A Scarlet Witch" jng2058 posted:She does in fact say "And that makes you the Scarlet Witch!"
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Feb 28, 2021 19:55
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It's probably due to my hearing being bad cause I'm old but I honestly can't tell when watching if it's the or a, but you seem pretty convinced it's the so I'll take your word.
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Feb 28, 2021 19:57
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Vince MechMahon posted:It's probably due to my hearing being bad cause I'm old but I honestly can't tell when watching if it's the or a, but you seem pretty convinced it's the so I'll take your word. you can also turn on closed captioning, which I think uses the official Disney one and not the terrible auto-generated one some youtube videos use.
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Feb 28, 2021 20:05
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Vince MechMahon posted:It's probably due to my hearing being bad cause I'm old but I honestly can't tell when watching if it's the or a, but you seem pretty convinced it's the so I'll take your word. Here have the subtitles  Directly previous to this Agatha also says that she's (as in, the person with these powers) is supposed to be a myth. So a witch with these powers is not unheard of
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Feb 28, 2021 20:07
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What is this, a local?BrianWilly posted:Doctor Strange had to study magic in order to learn it, Wanda was able to do it naturally. This has always been their case, the difference between them. Naturally and unconsciously. That's unique. It might not be because she's a mutant and just because she's the Scarlet Witch, but there's nothing unreasonable about the guess. It doesn't confirm anything either way though. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Feb 28, 2021 |
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Feb 28, 2021 22:26
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Feb 28, 2021 23:04
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Nah, Agnes didn't add a bunch of stuff about how biological sex is real or praise Wanda for keeping all the actual gay stuff off-screen.
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Feb 28, 2021 23:08
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Gaz-L posted:Nah, Agnes didn't add a bunch of stuff about how biological sex is real or praise Wanda for keeping all the actual gay stuff off-screen. Kathryn Hahn reveals in interview that Agatha just shits wherever and magics it away
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Feb 28, 2021 23:19
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I'm lost on what the difference is between A scarlet witch and THE scarlet witch. Even if Agatha said "A Scarlet Witch" she's also very well versed in magic, about, 300 years old, and believes scarlet witches to be myths, so they're functionally the same thing.
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Feb 28, 2021 23:24
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I think the distinction of "The" over "A" is just for those of us who saw the feminine figure coming through the mind stone and assumed it was an existing single entity that she was becoming/being "possessed" by, like the Phoenix or something. It's more prophecised Chosen One tropey.
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Mar 1, 2021 00:43
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I'm not responsible for this image
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Mar 1, 2021 01:13
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