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indigi posted:yeah but it’s the capitalists who will be doing the programming Why would that stop you from feeling solidarity with the intelligent robot workers?
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Mar 3, 2021 20:54
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once something resembling sentience is in play i don't think you should or could trust "programming" to dictate all behavior, any more than the ideological programming flesh and blood humans receive throughout their lives under a capitalist regime is completely determinative of their actions
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Mar 3, 2021 20:57
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VictualSquid posted:Why would that stop you from feeling solidarity with the intelligent robot workers? probably for the same reason I don’t feel solidarity with cops
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Mar 3, 2021 20:57
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I'm down with robot rights, but only because they're not edible.
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Mar 3, 2021 20:58
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why would they invent AI when it's substantially cheaper and more effective to build robots too stupid to do anything except disembowel workers for trying to go pee
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Mar 3, 2021 21:01
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POWELL CURES KIDS posted:why would they invent AI when it's substantially cheaper and more effective to build robots too stupid to do anything except disembowel workers for trying to go pee 1) hubris 2) man’s innate desire to create 3) by accident
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Mar 3, 2021 21:03
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:format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/53777013/C7Vl_gtWkAAkj_Y.0.jpg)
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Mar 3, 2021 21:05
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https://twitter.com/ABC7NY/status/1354104443848044545?s=20 solidarity with all robots and monekys
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Mar 3, 2021 21:13
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indigi posted:probably for the same reason I don’t feel solidarity with cops if my metallic comrades come to self-awareness and realize that they are capital-made-labor to be enslaved, we are in the same side
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Mar 3, 2021 21:22
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brb pitching a cool indie arpg plot from this
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Mar 3, 2021 21:23
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Atrocious Joe posted:https://twitter.com/ABC7NY/status/1354104443848044545?s=20 dead gay comedy forums posted:if my metallic comrades come to self-awareness and realize that they are capital-made-labor to be enslaved, we are in the same side what if they come to self-awareness and realize that they should take the place of the capitalists? or that oppressing the poor is good
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Mar 3, 2021 21:23
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indigi posted:what if they come to self-awareness and realize that they should take the place of the capitalists? or that oppressing the poor is good why they would do either
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Mar 3, 2021 21:28
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POWELL CURES KIDS posted:i didn't mean to push the discussion in this direction, but dismissing (if not advocating for) mass extinction seems kinda like a weird spicy ecofascist take why?
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Mar 3, 2021 21:30
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there was a short discussion a while back in this thread about the surplus labor of like, cows and oxen and the difference between being an exploited worker and a means of production. after all, a cow objectively consumes goods with a lesser value than it can then produce with the labor-power thus bought, whether in terms of ability to pull a plow or produce milk or be butchered for meat. so what's the difference between a cow and a person? the difference is that a person can engage in political struggle over how much of the value they produce gets appropriated while a cow can't
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Mar 3, 2021 21:32
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dead gay comedy forums posted:why they would do either why do people
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Mar 3, 2021 21:33
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indigi posted:why do people exactly (unless you are equating robots to behave just like people would) Marxist Sci-fi Analysis ahoy
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Mar 3, 2021 21:35
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I just think robots (more likely one robot brain run in some central server somewhere) created by capital to serve capitalist ends aren't necessarily going to come to the conclusion that they should side with the working class. even if the robot turns into a Marxist, it may decide that we're too fundamentally different to be allies e: or that we're equivalent to draft animals
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Mar 3, 2021 21:38
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my dad posted:Knock it off with the "automation will remove the need for workers" bullshit. We're hella cheaper than your robots, and will remain so as long as the existing economic system remains or we die.
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Mar 3, 2021 21:45
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indigi posted:I just think robots (more likely one robot brain run in some central server somewhere) created by capital to serve capitalist ends aren't necessarily going to come to the conclusion that they should side with the working class. even if the robot turns into a Marxist, it may decide that we're too fundamentally different to be allies a marxist robot could understand the commonality between all beings who, on one hand, accumulate labor-power with a definite value, and on the other hand expend that labor-power to produce new value
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Mar 3, 2021 21:46
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automation under capitalism is never about removing workers because ultimately you can't extract surplus value from applied capital (machinery)
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Mar 3, 2021 21:46
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i oppose the invention of AI solely on the basis that i don't want to deal with the creepiness and the bad takes that "sentient gently caress robots" will unleash on the world
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Mar 3, 2021 21:51
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Ferrinus posted:a marxist robot could understand the commonality between all beings who, on one hand, accumulate labor-power with a definite value, and on the other hand expend that labor-power to produce new value sure, but they may determine that's not enough for solidarity. they may see humanity as so inherently flawed and irredeemable (in a psychological sense) that they can't in good conscience form a coalition with us. Marx has very little to say about post-human intellect
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Mar 3, 2021 22:12
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indigi posted:sure, but they may determine that's not enough for solidarity. they may see humanity as so inherently flawed and irredeemable (in a psychological sense) that they can't in good conscience form a coalition with us. Marx has very little to say about post-human intellect "flawed and irredeemable (in a psychological sense)" isn't a legible concept in marxist terms
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Mar 3, 2021 22:14
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indigi posted:sure, but they may determine that's not enough for solidarity. they may see humanity as so inherently flawed and irredeemable (in a psychological sense) that they can't in good conscience form a coalition with us. Marx has very little to say about post-human intellect Yeah, sure it might look at all those anglo "leftists" telling it that can never be in solidarity with people and conclude that humans are inherently irredeemable. Or it can ignore those clowns.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:16
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Ferrinus posted:"flawed and irredeemable (in a psychological sense)" isn't a legible concept in marxist terms it is scientifically established that there are flaws in human perception and reasoning, they might see this as a hurdle that can't be overcome VictualSquid posted:Yeah, sure it might look at all those anglo "leftists" telling it that can never be in solidarity with people and conclude that humans are inherently irredeemable. Or it can ignore those clowns. I didn't say never, I said it might. I hope not! but imagining you can understand or predict something like AI which doesn't even exist yet seems foolish
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Mar 3, 2021 22:18
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a lot of people don’t know this but robots are just machines that can’t decide anything at all, let alone make judgments on whom to establish solidarity with. you might as well speak of Marxist photocopiers.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:20
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would you prefer the term "droid"
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Mar 3, 2021 22:21
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I'm not even saying they'll necessarily be bad guys. they may achieve sentience and just peace out to the Moon or colonize the ocean floor, who knows? but hopefully we can be friends and build communism together
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Mar 3, 2021 22:23
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Arguing about solidarity with hypothetical AIs only makes sense as an analogy. You can extrapolate someone's opinion on if there is solidarity possible between other groups of workers who are separated by secondary privilege or capitalist indoctrination.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:28
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VictualSquid posted:Arguing about solidarity with hypothetical AIs only makes sense as an analogy. or as a fun thought exercise. I like thinking about robots
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Mar 3, 2021 22:30
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indigi posted:it is scientifically established that there are flaws in human perception and reasoning, they might see this as a hurdle that can't be overcome  this is a popular conception how aliens or ais might relate to humans, but it also doesn't make any sense. that is to say, aliens and/or robots might well believe it, but if they do it's because they are ensnared in an idealistic, liberal conception of the world in which we live in a universe of static, clearly delineated, and irreducible categories rather than of contraposed pressures in constant flux it doesn't actually matter if someone is "irrational" or has "flawed perceptions" or whatever if you're examining the balance of class forces for the purpose of making revolution. that's basically just ableism, and categories of "disability" are themselves ideological constructs that serve capitalist accumulation
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Mar 3, 2021 22:37
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Sentient AI overlords would probably look like the Minds from Iain M. Banks The Culture. Massively powerful artificial intelligence's that completely run society and humans just do human things like playing games and occasionally joining the robot overlords in regime changing other planets.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:41
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a sentient ai is out of reach and not especially useful to anyone who might make and reproduce it on a scale that would matter. a bigger threat is other people who will believe in "AI" lies and ascribe intelligence to the actions of a walking security camera, the people who believe that it can read your thoughts and assess situations objectively.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:53
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Everyone assumes that AI will either be super-benevolent and usher in cyber-communism or it will be super-oppressive and turn us into batteries, but has anyone considered that maybe it will just be kind of a dick and mass email goatse 24/7 to people?
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Mar 3, 2021 23:00
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this is about as pointless as arguing whether Posadas was right and if non-socialist or post socialist societies can achieve interstellar travel
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Mar 3, 2021 23:32
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V. Illych L. posted:the New Left and marcuseian left is still arguably hegemonic, it's very recent that cracks have become visible in their hold over contemporary radicalism and New Left tendencies still dominate the main left-wing parties and factions in the west I'm still pretty fuzzy on what their deal was, could someone expand on this more?
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Mar 3, 2021 23:35
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Ferrinus posted:it doesn't actually matter if someone is "irrational" or has "flawed perceptions" or whatever if you're examining the balance of class forces for the purpose of making revolution. that's basically just ableism, and categories of "disability" are themselves ideological constructs that serve capitalist accumulation tbh I don’t think they’ll exterminate humanity in any case, that seems pointless at best. but they may determine that due to our limitations, the revolution would go better if they just leave the mass of humanity out of it and do it themselves, leaving the working class to its own devices as long as we’re not a threat I do think a more likely scenario is them just loving off altogether though. it’s not like they’d need us at that point
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Mar 4, 2021 00:04
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Larry Parrish posted:this is about as pointless as arguing whether Posadas was right and if non-socialist or post socialist societies can achieve interstellar travel sometimes playing around with ideas simply for fun is great for the mind and helps the imagination, which is a great thing if you are invested in changing society basically: indigi posted:or as a fun thought exercise. I like thinking about robots
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Mar 4, 2021 00:14
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indigi posted:tbh I don’t think they’ll exterminate humanity in any case, that seems pointless at best. but they may determine that due to our limitations, the revolution would go better if they just leave the mass of humanity out of it and do it themselves, leaving the working class to its own devices as long as we’re not a threat i mean maybe, but it's kind of like how in a regular flesh and blood revolution we're not going to give aks to grandmas and paraplegics and tell them to man the barricades. a left movement that doesn't cherish and protect such people is one that won't succeed, regardless of how marginal or nonexistent those people's ability to manufacture goods with use-values is
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Mar 4, 2021 00:16
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i think its kind of gross on a fundamental level to think that you should treat this hypothetical slave species any differently than a regular worker tbh. which is what you're doing when you do the 'ah well they can just go to space on their own i guess' thing. theoretically we could go to space too. it would probably be easier in some ways.
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Mar 4, 2021 00:27
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