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are they just doing the flying or all the paperwork, shots, quarantining, etc? (You may not need all that stuff for cats but you definitely do for dogs) It's light but it'll cover your flights and some furniture.
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Mar 3, 2021 18:53
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Update: I countered with 95k (to match what I make now) and they passed. Hope I made the right decision.
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Mar 3, 2021 19:58
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CornHolio posted:Update: I countered with 95k (to match what I make now) and they passed. Hope I made the right decision. Do you mean they retracted the offer when you tried to negotiate? If that's the case, good riddance.
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Mar 3, 2021 20:03
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Not a Children posted:Do you mean they retracted the offer when you tried to negotiate? Sounds like they didn't retract the offer at the original number, but they stuck with original number as their final offer, and the OP is declining.
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Mar 3, 2021 20:08
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Not a Children posted:If that's the case, good riddance.
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Mar 3, 2021 20:09
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Either way there didn't seem to be any reason to create a relationship with a company that didn't want to be open and honest. Sounds like they're counting on being in an industry that attracts people to help their bottom line and regularly get away with it. You're definitely financially better off for staying away. See also: Video games.
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Mar 3, 2021 20:13
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CornHolio posted:Update: I countered with 95k (to match what I make now) and they passed. Hope I made the right decision. Frankly that counter was a mistake and they did you a huge favor by severing. Usually I'm a huge advocate of never saying no but rather making the other side say no. But in this case they lowballed you (strike one!) and pressured you to accept right now or else (strike two!) while refusing to disclose benefits (steeeee-rike three!!!) which makes it crystal clear they are a predatory and abusive company. You should have told them to gently caress themselves with a garden rake.
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Mar 3, 2021 20:28
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Eric the Mauve posted:Frankly that counter was a mistake and they did you a huge favor by severing. Usually I'm a huge advocate of never saying no but rather making the other side say no. But in this case they lowballed you (strike one!) and pressured you to accept right now or else (strike two!) while refusing to disclose benefits (steeeee-rike three!!!) which makes it crystal clear they are a predatory and abusive company. You should have told them to gently caress themselves with a garden rake. I don't know how much of it was the company and how much of it was the recruiter/recruiting company. My understanding is that there were several candidates and they moved on to the next one. Ah well, either way, I still didn't have the benefits information so it was only going to be a verbal/provisional 'yes' so I'm not too upset about it. On the other hand, my current boss still refuses to put anything in writing and I'm running solo on a huge project that's been communicated only verbally and which has no defined scope or anything, and when I ask questions about it I'm being too 'critical' and 'negative' so who knows.
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Mar 3, 2021 20:51
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I think you should continue to look for a new opportunity because although you like your peers and that's important, incompetent management is going to get you in the end.
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Mar 3, 2021 21:12
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I think you should continue to look for a new opportunity because although you like your peers and that's important, incompetent management is going to get you in the end. Oh yeah, I have a half-day interview in a couple of weeks with the place that wants to pay me $20k more than what I make right now, so maybe I'll get that one.
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Mar 3, 2021 21:21
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I would read this thread but the post count goes up faster than I can read. I think I can safely say that I can be put on the spreadsheets for +$5,000 a year. I read the post, did what it said and negotiated stuff for multiple thousands more a year. This is a repeatable increase as it was only for one customer. (My first one.) You know those websites that say they know the magic secret to making more money and they'll email you the book on it for a little bit of money. They should link to this instead, and it would be well worth it. It's definitely made my  worth it.The invoice is out and as soon as it is paid I will be buying an ad for this beautiful pot of gold of a thread and doing it 70 more times.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:03
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:are they just doing the flying or all the paperwork, shots, quarantining, etc? (You may not need all that stuff for cats but you definitely do for dogs) Yeah I’ll certainly manage, in the long run it should easily pay off in future opportunities as a bona fide international tax expert. Cats are mercifully easier, just paperwork, rabies shot, and then making sure they actually get over to Knife Crime Island safely. Didn’t really expect they’d cover cat relocation but it’s a cost and why not try them lol.
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Mar 3, 2021 23:41
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nazca posted:The invoice is out and as soon as it is paid I will be buying an ad for this beautiful pot of gold of a thread and doing it 70 more times. You are a good goon. This thread is in my bookmarks for a reason.
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Mar 4, 2021 00:25
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While I was practicing I broke the never say a number rule once. It wasn't really a flinch, I was just talking and disregarded the rule in stride without thinking about it. I said a number and the person on the other end of the phone basically said "Holy gently caress!" and hung up. In reality I probably would have accepted half that price for at least an offer letter if not a job but never got a chance to communicate that. Never say a number. Know the rules... be the rules... nazca fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 00:36
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Definitely never say number, but asking for numbers can sometimes stop you wasting time. Had a recruiter call me about a job for a financial firm, asked me for a number, I asked him for his number, and it ended up being $17k less than I'm currently earning (though with "up to $10k" in bonuses possible). Told him that was significantly less than I was currently earning, did not mention it would probably be double the work of my current job, and never heard from him again.
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Mar 4, 2021 17:28
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Closing on a potential offer. They sent me an email asking if I'd call them later on to discuss the final round interviews and on the call the hiring manager just tipped me off about the right things to say to her bosses, and gave me tips. She never brought up salary, so I didn't either. Is it a normal process for salary negotiation to occur after interviews are done? Should I have brought up salary then and there? I'd rather finish the final interview and then enter talks. EDIT: They just emailed me asking for a range and I emailed them back asking for a range for the role. Never had to do this over email before, I hope that was appropriate. Smif-N-Wessun fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 21:31
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Smif-N-Wessun posted:Closing on a potential offer. It is extremely normal. In fact (even for jobs that I've failed to negotiate at) I don't think I've started talking salary with anyone for any job I've had until that point (aside from like post-college restaurant jobs where the take-it-or-leave-it hourly rate was posted up front). I think what you did is fine- probably the second best choice. The first choice would be to just name what you want plus 15-20%. Whatever the range ends up being, just counteroffer with something 15% or so higher than the top number (unless the range is already way above your "I have clearly won" number, but that probably won't be the case).
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Mar 4, 2021 22:19
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In my experience (Denmark, public sector), it's absolutely the standard to decide on a candidate and only then figure out the practicalities like salary. But this is also a field where collective bargaining is pretty strong and the pay difference is fairly low and predictable by education and experience. It gives you a better hand because they already said they want you, or at least that's my reading.
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Mar 4, 2021 22:24
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m0therfux0r posted:It is extremely normal. In fact (even for jobs that I've failed to negotiate at) I don't think I've started talking salary with anyone for any job I've had until that point (aside from like post-college restaurant jobs where the take-it-or-leave-it hourly rate was posted up front). Hiring manager just hit me back and said "I don't have the range, HR handles everything and they're the ones that asked me if I could get an expectation from you. If you can't provide a range, you can just opt to tell them you can't provide a range at this point in time and I will let them know that" Idk if they're telling the truth and how 2 hiring managers and my direct bosses if i get the role don't know the amount of the budgeted salary? Is this BS? Looks like I'll just ask for 18% above what I expect and see where we can go from there.
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Mar 4, 2021 23:12
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Yeah, I think the "standard" way that a hiring process goes is that you finish all the interviews, then are presented with an offer, and then you negotiate. That's the Platonic Ideal, anyway; I always have someone trying to get numbers up front. Speaking of, now is probably the time for me to tell my own Thread Story. Let's title it, I hosed Up and Said a Number, Sorry Thread or maybe Knowing When You've Won is Key. Recently I got a cold-message on LinkedIn "Nice profile, wanna chat?" and it turned out to be someone with a Fortune 100 company. During the first call, they said "Oh I see you work at $Company, they pay pretty well, what would it take you to come over to us?" and I was like "Oh gee total compensation, don't want to just reduce it to a single number, everything is different, let's talk about the role first shall we?" but they were insistent and said, "Oh, well, before we do that, I just wanna see if you're in the range, y'know, if we should even move through the process" and wouldn't take "No" for an answer. Sidebar: Now, I'm lucky enough that I knew how the salary bands at $Company worked, what the min/mid/max of the next several salary grades were, along with the bonus structure for each of those grades. This new job is in a MUCH more expensive market, BUT I'm also friends with people in my field in that market, so I have a decent idea of what they make. Not perfect information, but I'm not going in blind either. Back to the story: Not wanting to make this person mad, I finally tossed out a number that I knew I wouldn't see for at least 2 more promotions (which would be 4-5 years from now, if my career stayed on track, I didn't have to take any lateral moves, etc.). They said it was within the range. However, I made it a point to stress several times that "That number assumes all things being equal w/r/t benefits, and I'm also taking a guess at the cost of living differential". So I tried to hedge it a bit. Moving through the interviews, we get to the end and they send me the benefits info on a Friday, with some homework to research the area and to wait for them to reach out with an offer on Monday. I was told to assume salary would be the number I quoted them (of course it was  , this is where I likely done hosed myself). Long story short: benefits were . . . different. Better in some ways, worse in others. So I built a spreadsheet, as I do, and dove into cost of living research. Math told me that the thread was right and I was a loving idiot: it would be a stretch to try and maintain my current standard of living in the new market on the number I quoted. gently caress. So I did more math, made some what-if scenarios: I would probably be comfortable on 5% or 6% more. I decided that 10% more would be my win condition - that would give me plenty of flex room for anything unforeseen (tax differentials that I ignored/fudged, etc.)So they called back and asked what I thought. I said "I really want this to work, I did the homework, and I don't know if I can make the first number work. What I can say is that if we can get to [new number], I'm an automatic yes, I'll sign right now." Short silence. Then, almost suspiciously: "How did you come up with that?" So I laid out my math on the differential in benefits, the cost of living adjustment. "Are you a hard no on the current number?" I decided to be honest here: "No, it's not a hard no. But it WILL be a difficult decision. I'd have to decide if I can sacrifice something, whether standard of living or funding my 401k or something, I don't know. But my math says that I won't need to sacrifice any of those things at the new number." "Okay, thank you. I'll see if I can get ahold of the team; it's close to the end of the day though so we'll see. I don't know if it's in the budget." And then I waited. But not for long. Two hours later I got a call back saying that my new number was accepted, and a question if I was still interested. "I said what I said - if you can hit that number, I'll sign for it." Thus ends my tale, and how I left my company of almost 15 years - and the city I've lived in since I was 10 years old - for something completely new and unknown. Could I have gotten more? Maybe, I dunno. Should I have said a number? Probably not, but I didn't see a way out at the time. But keeping in mind the second rule of the thread, I was able to recover and lay out something that - for me at least - counts as a win. In raw salary, it's a 30% bump. After benefits are factored in, maybe closer to 20%. But the ability to maintain my standard of living while moving (with relocation assistance!) to a job market that isn't ruled by the whims of a single company is huge for my peace of mind. Zarin fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 23:47
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:I actually knew the higher position was already open but figured they had filled it. Still, I do have some concerns about my abilities for the job. It's a management position and I've never really done that at this level, but I guess I have to start somewhere.
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Mar 4, 2021 23:59
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Yeah they already passed on you.
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Mar 5, 2021 00:05
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Ghosting sucks but it's become practically standard. If these guys don't want to pay a fair price for your skills, that's their tragedy, just move on. If possible you should always avoid working for a cheap company. The cheapness manifests itself in a thousand little ways that weave together to make employees hate their jobs.
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Mar 5, 2021 00:05
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Smif-N-Wessun posted:Hiring manager just hit me back and said "I don't have the range, HR handles everything and they're the ones that asked me if I could get an expectation from you. If you can't provide a range, you can just opt to tell them you can't provide a range at this point in time and I will let them know that" To add to this, I don't even know how they can not know the budget of the role that they are hiring for. How is that even a possibility? lol You have other staff and you know their salary.
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Mar 5, 2021 00:06
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Smif-N-Wessun posted:To add to this, I don't even know how they can not know the budget of the role that they are hiring for. How is that even a possibility? lol "I would need to review the total compensation package including benefits on offer first, please provide that and then we can talk."
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Mar 5, 2021 00:07
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:They offered me the higher level position and $10k under what I had asked for at the lower level position; I said great opportunity, really excited, but you'd have to meet me on salary. VP said she would talk to HR and see if they can meet me there. That was a week ago, I haven't heard a peep since. I get the distinct sense I'm being hosed around with. They've basically pulled their offer but they want to reserve the option to reopen things if none of their alternatives pan out, therefore - radio silence.
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Mar 5, 2021 00:09
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Smif-N-Wessun posted:To add to this, I don't even know how they can not know the budget of the role that they are hiring for. How is that even a possibility? lol Several of my friends work in industries where there is a "functional" (this seems to mean different things to different people) manager and then a higher level manager that controls the budget. The functional manager doesn't know any salaries. It seems stupid to me, but it happens.
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Mar 5, 2021 00:12
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FMguru posted:They are proceeding to offer to their #2 choice, and then their #3 choice, etc., and if they all get shot down they'll come back to you with a slightly better offer.
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Mar 5, 2021 00:14
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Eric the Mauve posted:Ghosting sucks but it's become practically standard. From mid-2013 to mid-2014 I applied to nearly 150 jobs, and I barely got automated replies if/when my application was auto-rejected by a filter. The only way I knew was to log back into the system and look up the status of the application manually. After interviews, the only time I've ever gotten callbacks from those are when I was interviewing internally. To be fair, probably the bulk of my interviews have ended after the first call.  "What is your salary range?" "Oh, gee, total compensation, don't wanna boil it down to a number *continues to dance around topic*" *accidentally tells me the range* "That is less than I made before I had a degree, thank you anyway."Fake edit: I don't know why that smilie is ": hr :" but I'm leaving it 
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Mar 5, 2021 00:17
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Cause we are actually angels*. *Just not the good kind.
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Mar 5, 2021 08:08
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My generic response now to questions about current comp is that it’s subject to a confidentiality agreement but the elements are base plus bonus or whatever, with no numbers. For expected comp it’s “in line with my experience and the responsibilities of the role” and if I know what they are likely to put on the table and they ask for more detail, elements I want in (bonus, options etc). If it’s in person and they’re really persistent, I sometimes deflect “expectations” questions with an anchor that’s way above what they could possibly offer, and then undercut immediately by acknowledging that’s not realistic. EG “it would be amazing if you paid me SUM=(max_say_yes_immediately_num * 3) as base salary but really I expect compensation to be appropriate to my experience and the scope of the role” or something like that. Ultimately what matters is having a very clear idea of (1) your real bottom line below which it’s an auto no; and (2) your “this is amazing, say yes before the opportunity vanishes” number (although this should usually ring a warning bell that you need to be sure you really want the job and have done your due diligence, since if they have to pay over the odds for it there’s always a reason), and if the number is not above (2), then having the mental fortitude to say “no” or at least “not unless you pay me Y”.
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Mar 7, 2021 16:45
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A family member got a job offer below current salary and told them off, saying that it was below what they made and they expected a significant pay raise for the role. 6 months later the company calls back wanting to know if they're still interested in the job at the same previously offered rate. Ballsy.
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Mar 7, 2021 19:08
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Barudak posted:A family member got a job offer below current salary and told them off, saying that it was below what they made and they expected a significant pay raise for the role. 6 months later the company calls back wanting to know if they're still interested in the job at the same previously offered rate. I’d probably counter by asking the recruiter if he was interested in washing my car for $5 every week.
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Mar 7, 2021 19:33
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Zarin posted:
It's from an anime called Haibane Renmei . It's chill and good. One of its themes is about being willing to ask for help when you need it. That's what brings me here!So first off, I broke the rules about giving a salary range. I told the recruiter 12-18k above what I was currently earning. After all the interviews I get an offer that's about 1.3k. I tell the recruiter that's not enough and they go on about how all the benefits and bonuses make up for it (and it's definitely better bonuses that what I currently have) but I tell them I could only accept something in the original range. The recruiter grumbles a bit, but later comes back with an offer of 15k more, which I accept. Being as I am currently employed, this was the first time I could afford to say, "No" so I'm pretty happy with how it ended. Now I do wonder what my current company will say. A few employers I've had to leave in the past seemed willing to entice me to stay, but I couldn't for various reasons. That's not the case now. cgeq fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Mar 7, 2021 |
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Mar 7, 2021 21:47
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Maybe I misread what you posted but it seems like you turned down a job that met your range for a decent raise and better benefits, and are now going to tell your current employer...something about leaving? That's not recommended.
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Mar 7, 2021 21:58
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I think they're saying this is the first negotiation where they had the power to say no, exercised it, and got the bigger offer as a result, not that they refused the bigger offer. CGEQ, you should read what people in the thread say about bringing an offer back to your current employer. The TL;dr version is 80%+ of the time you're putting a 6-9 month target on your back as a flight risk. There's also etiquette about how to present it if you do choose to go that route, but again that's generally not recommended regardless of how invaluable you are (because no one is invaluable, especially after explicitly flagging yourself as a flight risk and essentially politely extorting money out of your current employer).
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Mar 7, 2021 22:06
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cgeq posted:Now I do wonder what my current company will say. A few employers I've had to leave in the past seemed willing to entice me to stay, but I couldn't for various reasons. That's not the case now. Thanks for the explainer! When I left my last employer, I was kinda surprised when I said "Hey, I got a better offer, so long and thanks for all the fish" and the response was "congratulations, all the best!". They didn't attempt to counter-offer or anything. To Admiralty Flag's point, even if they HAD tried to counter, I probably would not have taken it - not only because I'd be concerned about being a target - but because the other things involved with moving to the new company were too important (relocation, etc.). In a way, I'm almost glad they didn't counter, since that meant I didn't have to make that decision.
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Mar 7, 2021 22:45
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I think the fear of retaliation after a counter-offer is overblown, especially at the established professional level. It's not a zero concern, but the internet advice of "never accept a counter" is, like much internet advice, oversimplified. That said, I think it's generally best not to accept a counter offer because that you got to that point likely means there's some good reasons beyond just money that you went and got another job offer, and if it requires getting an offer in hand to get that pay raise it's already too little too late. I also think it's just good career experience to switch it up from time to time, so if you've got something in hand that you're excited about and moves your career upward or at least closer to a specific job role you want then you should probably take it.
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Mar 7, 2021 23:01
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Hurt Whitey Maybe posted:It’s for a US tax role in the UK, so I’m hardly the first to relo from the US for a role like this. Not sure how they attract much talent with only £1600, so hopefully they come back with more, because it seems awfully low. At least one of the big 4 pay £3-10k for domestic relocation to London, at consultant and grad entry-level roles. I can't imagine that's unique.
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Mar 7, 2021 23:51
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Guinness posted:I think the fear of retaliation after a counter-offer is overblown, especially at the established professional level. It's not a zero concern, but the internet advice of "never accept a counter" is, like much internet advice, oversimplified. It's not about retaliation at all. It's just pure pragmatism. The company isn't actually interested in paying as much as Company B offered for the job you do, but they don't want to be short-term screwed by your abrupt departure, so they pay what it takes to keep you in place until they've lined up all their proverbial ducks and are ready to replace you at your former compensation level or less, at which point they shitcan you. It's a common thing you read on the internet because it's a common thing that, in fact, happens all the time. Even if that weren't true, it would still be a wiser policy to go work for the company that just demonstrated they actually want you at a higher compensation level than to remain at the company that has been demonstrating for years that they don't value you that highly, and are only grudgingly agreeing to pay you more because their hand was externally forced. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 7, 2021 23:59
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