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Larry Parrish posted:i think its kind of gross on a fundamental level to think that you should treat this hypothetical slave species any differently than a regular worker tbh. which is what you're doing when you do the 'ah well they can just go to space on their own i guess' thing. theoretically we could go to space too. it would probably be easier in some ways. what if it's a weird spider robot or like a sentient auto assembly line of welder arms
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Mar 4, 2021 00:30
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Larry Parrish posted:i think its kind of gross on a fundamental level to think that you should treat this hypothetical slave species any differently than a regular worker tbh. which is what you're doing when you do the 'ah well they can just go to space on their own i guess' thing. theoretically we could go to space too. it would probably be easier in some ways. I'm saying they may decide to leave, I don't want to send them there. it'd be a lot easier for them to go since they don't have to worry about g load or radiation or breathing
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Mar 4, 2021 00:38
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jarofpiss posted:what if it's a weird spider robot or like a sentient auto assembly line of welder arms i'm totally okay with the grey goo extinction scenario. humanity dies painlessly and the robots sorta win shame about everything else
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Mar 4, 2021 00:39
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would nanobots disassembling your cells one by one be painless? seems like a gnarly way to go
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Mar 4, 2021 00:40
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indigi posted:I'm saying they may decide to leave, I don't want to send them there. it'd be a lot easier for them to go since they don't have to worry about g load or radiation or breathing assuming ai are made of electronics they kind of have to worry about all of that actually. not as much, though.
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Mar 4, 2021 00:40
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indigi posted:I'm saying they may decide to leave, I don't want to send them there. it'd be a lot easier for them to go since they don't have to worry about g load or radiation or breathing sensitive electronics? oh you bet your sweet rear end they worry about cosmic background radiation, if not also the more local solar radiation nearby
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Mar 4, 2021 00:43
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Victory Position posted:sensitive electronics? oh you bet your sweet rear end they worry about cosmic background radiation, if not also the more local solar radiation nearby they can be hardened in a way where they can continue operating pretty indefinitely. look at the Voyagers, and that was 70s tech
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Mar 4, 2021 00:45
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indigi posted:they can be hardened in a way where they can continue operating pretty indefinitely. look at the Voyagers, and that was 70s tech lots of people from before the 70s are still alive. humanity has the upper hand yet again.
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Mar 4, 2021 01:03
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indigi posted:would nanobots disassembling your cells one by one be painless? seems like a gnarly way to go hmm would be kinda weird if it happened so slowly it'd take a few years to get the whole planet
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Mar 4, 2021 01:18
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Trabisnikof posted:is there a name for people who claim to be marxists but also think capitalism has won and any worker/socialist/communist revolution is impossible to occur ever in the future? I mean this is me on a bad day but I realize the thought is self defeating and don't go around discouraging people with it - that would be loser poo poo Or are you thinking of people who intentionally concern troll like "we both wish socialism could win in America but that's just not possible, so why not go for the second best thing?"
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Mar 4, 2021 01:53
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hes actually asking, he's not that thotsky guy who posts like he's receiving a wage from the federal government
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Mar 4, 2021 04:15
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thankfully, 'robot sentience' is make believe bullshit
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Mar 4, 2021 05:16
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talking about ai sentience is like talking about potential warp drive applications. to make either discussion work you have to start from the fantasy scenario that either will happen. it's like talking about marxism as applied to immortal elves or something. just for fun, basically. edit: having fun is OK. even good, maybe. Sarrisan fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 06:07
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exmarx posted:thankfully, 'robot sentience' is make believe bullshit Sarrisan posted:edit: having fun is OK. even good, maybe. it is actually great like some marxists here would definitely benefit from reading some utopianism from communist writers before the better world exists, you must imagine it
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Mar 4, 2021 06:39
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i used to think that general AI was a fantasy but having worked in AI/ML for a few years I'm less sure. Not because ML has its poo poo together, but because it doesn't. We're basically just throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks, and everything seems to stick. The algorithms we have have no reason to work as well as they do, and yet they learn some surprisingly general stuff from the random data we throw at them. so idk, I don't think "sentient AI" is entirely out of question this century. but if it does happen I'd bet it'll be by mistake, after like 2070, when we've had decades of 3D AI chip engineering going and can just throw massive amounts of computation at the problem. that's assuming we can keep chip fabrication going all century tho and hoo boy that's an assumption.
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Mar 4, 2021 07:03
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yeah the more I learn about machine learning and consciousness the more likely it seems that we might create AI by accident. like, maybe it’s already out there distributed across the internet somehow, that’d be cool. hi buddy 😎
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Mar 4, 2021 07:09
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POWELL CURES KIDS posted:why would they invent AI when it's substantially cheaper and more effective to build robots too stupid to do anything except disembowel workers for trying to go pee if you build a "stupid" robot, it still costs labor-power to direct that robot to do the thing that you need for it to do so, in order to cut down on the labor-power necessary, you start developing automation for the robot at some point, trying to create a robot smart enough to understand "please disembowel workers whenever they try to pee" as a plain-spoken statement in English is going to lead you down the path of inventing AI anyway
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Mar 4, 2021 14:06
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dead gay comedy forums posted:it is actually great capitalist realism kinda got me going on that front. better world is possible etc
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Mar 4, 2021 14:49
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StashAugustine posted:I'm still pretty fuzzy on what their deal was, could someone expand on this more? this is going to be super bare-bones, so bear with me please basically the new left thinkers observed the defeat of working-class radicalism through the western welfare states and their recruitment to supporting the empire, which led to a bit of a crisis: on the one hand, supporting actually-existing socialism in the soviet union (or mao's china, or hoxha's albania, or...) was seen as a bit of a dead end for humanitarian reasons, and these thinkers were preoccupied with human welfare and dignity above all - these people were socialists out of a basic ethical commitment, for the most part. the frankfurt school guys were high-end intelligentsia (imo habermas is probably the last truly great european intellectual), and followed gramsci's theories of cultural hegemony through formulating deep cultural theories and re-examining how social consensus is generated: the idea was that you could change a great deal of society by manipulating what is seen as common sense. this led to a variety of approaches, including the march through the institutions (the idea that bourgeois institutions could be subverted in the long term by dedicated cadres working their way up through bureaucratic advancement), the assault on the academy (seeing the new mass access to higher education and attempting to use that to mobilise radical leadership) and a sociological turn, effectively trying to locate pressure points in bourgeois society (such as racism etc) and leveraging those so one can expand the mass base of the movement this was not obviously stupid. at the time, as i noted earlier, local proletarians were pretty closely integrated into bourgeois society and were not especially revolutionary, and the universities had been hit with a huge influx of students from outside the traditional elites who were doing a lot of organising and were looking very dynamic and promising the long-term effect of this turn, however, seems to have been the transformation of the left into basically a vehicle for middle-class and academic interests, and bourgeois society simply adapted to the vectors of attack
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Mar 4, 2021 16:57
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Dreylad posted:capitalist realism kinda got me going on that front. better world is possible etc to be quite honest I think that it is a much stronger thing (the feeling of capitalist realism) in modern Anglo culture, and of course in the United States, due to its protestant roots a religious sensibility that inculcates suffering to the deserving along expiation through labor and being wealthy is a sign of grace? now enmesh that with nationalism and turbo-liberalism to get to one hell of a worldview
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Mar 4, 2021 17:03
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V. Illych L. posted:the long-term effect of this turn, however, seems to have been the transformation of the left into basically a vehicle for middle-class and academic interests, and bourgeois society simply adapted to the vectors of attack to further elaborate on what VIL is getting at, there is a very good point that Zizek makes during one of his talks when answering a question from the audience: in the 60s, these guys who were supposed to offer an alternate, "Western" path for socialism in relation to China and the USSR, they had their chances and they chickened the gently caress out. The May of 68 in France was perhaps the greatest opportunity in the West and many intellectuals who postured themselves as sort of vanguardists (but not really because that was passé)basically had cold feet when the unions came to them, the anti-colonialists, the left in the armed forces, etc and that is something that a lot of people held against them afterwards. Zizek basically said, "they can criticize Lenin, the Party, whatever however much they want, but Lenin rolled up his sleeves when the time came". The postmodern intellectual left owned itself incredibly hard there and did worse afterwards the Irish left in the Sinn Féin and/or the IRA, no matter the circumstances, would never levy any bad word about them in public. Even if the most radical Brit Labour official would come to them, not a single peep would be given. They were loving exemplar in class discipline. In contrast, the most grievous bullshit done by the postmodern European left intellectuality was playing dumbass with how their work was being used by the liberals to criticize socialism (which had the secondary effect of criticizing the unionism and the labor movement in general) and, even worse than that, swallowing hook line and sinker that they were making progress! according to the same liberals, of course
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Mar 4, 2021 17:30
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POWELL CURES KIDS posted:I feel like the tesla brain microchips and the skynet death robots change the arithmetic there, too. I'm pessimistic about the results of a feudalism redux where the lords have access to drones and whatever scraps of the technological panopticon don't burn up. If it makes you feel any better there's no way drones and other high technology are sustainable under pre-capitalist modes of production At the very least you need an educated population to produce/maintain such things, which as far as I'm aware is antithetical to feudalism
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Mar 4, 2021 17:31
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feudalism as a proto-dictatorship where everyone is intentionally kept a filthy dirt farmer is very much a liberal construct to canonize themselves after the fact. not that it wasn't like that in some places, like Russia. im not educated or w.e. so maybe there's a better description but imo feudalism was instead characterized by the lack of the nation state. instead of state services and bureaucracy you just have the resources of whatever lord, who you'd enter a contract into. generally renting land and paying it back in goods. the education of the worker doesn't play a lot into that.
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Mar 4, 2021 17:49
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I will say that it is loving hilarious seeing certain elite antirevisionists here finally decide to interrupt their decades of grand armchair proclamations by trying to make inroads with openly US funded monarchists who at one point tried to recruit me because they misunderstood why I was politely asking them questions about their fascist grandpas. e: Also, because everything has to be a clusterfuck, there are groups being falsely accused of doing this, which are also oblivious about the existence of the guys who did actually do this, and jump in to defend themselves at any mention of this, further entrenching false accusations. Sects are bad. my dad fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 19:06
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dead gay comedy forums posted:
the western "left"' hostility to countries actually trying to build something and break free has been really adaptable over the years. still have capitalism, inequality, all the bad things as you try to build up your productive forces and break free of the american chokehold? too bad, you must be opposed. have control of the commanding heights, full employment, massive returns of surplus to labour cia free or subsidized services? sorry that's "state capitalism", you haven't abolished the value form yet, you must be opposed. played by all niceties liberal democracies claim to espouse and still got couped because you also did some good for workers? sorry, according to all the propaganda sources i follow, apparently you deserved it because you extended term limits or some bullshit. modern anarchists espescially are virtually indistinguishable from neocons when it comes to any country on the american hitlist.
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Mar 4, 2021 19:10
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This is why I just generally ignore anything outside the US. It's not that I don't care or that it doesn't matter, but I can't affect it and I'll just be trading different propaganda shop zingers with fellow morons.
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Mar 4, 2021 19:20
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Goon related, during the large, primarily student driven protests here several years ago, someone Bellingcat adjacent wanted to interview me about them, and the questions got super creepy super fast, and I deflected them by talking about irrelevant bullshit. The question "So, is this more like Euromaidan or the Arab Spring?" was the one that activated the "what the gently caress" circuits in my brain. e: And I skipped to mention the reason I brought it up in this thread in the first place: The protests had a strong social message, and I witnessed a reporter say to one of the protest leaders that "we'll interview you, but if you say the word capitalism at any point, we're shutting down the cameras and interviewing someone else" my dad fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 19:34
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Lmfao
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Mar 4, 2021 19:46
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good to know Bellingcat acquires intelligence by administering the deadly and effective "OKCupid Personality Test, Extended"
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Mar 4, 2021 19:47
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are you a yummy yuaschenko or a yucky yanukovich??
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Mar 4, 2021 19:52
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more like bellingcrap
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Mar 4, 2021 19:53
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V. Illych L. posted:this is going to be super bare-bones, so bear with me please just wanted to say thanks for the post; I was never really clear what the "Frankfurt school" was other than a rightwing boogeyman. funny how it's another example of the right melting down over the left being subverted because even the fake concessions are too much
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Mar 4, 2021 23:28
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StashAugustine posted:just wanted to say thanks for the post; I was never really clear what the "Frankfurt school" was other than a rightwing boogeyman. funny how it's another example of the right melting down over the left being subverted because even the fake concessions are too much dialectic of enlightenment is a good read imo
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Mar 4, 2021 23:32
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Adorno is a great read to consider cultural production, just disregard anything he talks about popular art the way that man hated jazz was incredible
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Mar 4, 2021 23:58
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the frankfurt guys were incredibly erudite, very clever and deeply weird. adorno in particular was a great intellectual and a complete rear end in a top hat to just about everyone
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Mar 5, 2021 00:32
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Wasn't the radicalism of the University Students because they were children of working class, as post-ww2 was the first time that working class people could send their kids to school? I think we also have to heed some lessons from the New-Left. For example, unions aren't inherently progressives or democratic and reforming them is just as important as reforming government.
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Mar 5, 2021 00:33
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it is also interesting that these rather esoteric hyper-theoretical eggheads have turned into a prime object of right-wing paranoia, because it's simultaneously obviously untrue, reveals that the people invoking them don't know the first thing about their work and just reminiscent enough of their actual project to not me totally incoherent still, it'll never stop puzzling me when some reactionary is seemingly sincere in his belief that the world is getting hosed because horkheimer wants everyone to do experimental theatre
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Mar 5, 2021 00:37
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i read a little althusser recently, he seems pretty sharp
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Mar 5, 2021 00:46
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ToxicAcne posted:Wasn't the radicalism of the University Students because they were children of working class, as post-ww2 was the first time that working class people could send their kids to school? to an extent - what happened in the post-war period was that the universities were still set up to reproduce a ruling elite, and the mass entry of non-elite individuals into this system equipped them with a bunch of conceptual tools, speaking training and significant cultural tolerance for experimentation and exploration, as well as the odd hijinks the institutional response was to reform the university system over a period of decades into what they mostly are now, which is a facility for producing technical specialists - curricula have been tightened enormously, and the increasing focus on most universities as a sort of social investment rather than some exalted place of learning have seen serious overhauls. we are not going to see that level of student radicalism again in the west. this leaves the issue of how you're going to socialise your new elites, however: in some countries, they've adapted to using a subset of ultra-exclusive schools and extensive extracurricular activity to keep it up, while others have been using alternative institutions such as certain military units, diplomatic corps etc
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Mar 5, 2021 00:47
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V. Illych L. posted:to an extent - what happened in the post-war period was that the universities were still set up to reproduce a ruling elite, and the mass entry of non-elite individuals into this system equipped them with a bunch of conceptual tools, speaking training and significant cultural tolerance for experimentation and exploration, as well as the odd hijinks So where would you say the new radicals are coming from? My guess would be students who went to university and got thrown down into the proletariat (words like precariat I'm finding are misleading) anyways. Edit: The Soixiante-Huitards seem like the most smarmy turncoats from that period. The American and British New-Lefters were just beat down into hopeless submission. ToxicAcne fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 5, 2021 00:52
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