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L. Ron Hoover posted:Wait, it took RDR2 8 years and 1000 software developers? But CIG has had only up to 500, tops! Along with building up a company, that means they can take up to 16 years minimum and still be on schedule!! 1000 is counting all developers that ever worked on the project, though, not the team that finished it. I am pretty sure that CIG is around 1000 themselves, if you count everyone who's ever worked on it. Recently someone said they are nearing 700, so they are possibly at ~1500, even. e:f;b Sanya Juutilainen fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 5, 2021 15:28
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FUDsters
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Jonny Shiloh posted:Yeah. I'm a big fan of Elite but honestly that gameplay looked a bit crap. Why were the guards walking away? How could the drop team land 12cm away from the front gate, and then fly right over the base, without drawing attention? Etc etc. Elite has always underwhelmed me. It's like they can do everything Star Citizen promises to be, and have a great technology grasp, but their implementation is like that of like warm soup full of wet noodles that are all slightly flavored with a single chicken bouillon cube. Sure, it's food, and you can eat it, and it doesn't necessarily taste bad... but it's just kind of not super great either. I feel sorry for Frontier in that regard because they are so close and yet so far away. 
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Mar 5, 2021 15:29
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Blue On Blue posted:how much of that stuff on the whiteboards do you think was just added for effect? The one on the left looks sort of like it was done in a meeting, but usually people are happy to erase the person before them's stuff, and the one on the right looks like it was drawn up before a meeting or was used outside of a meeting. The content of the left is nonsensical and the content of the right is face-palm worthy but it's whatever. If you really need to draw lines to indicate where somebody can sit at a square table you should probably stop hiring kids out of/still in high school to do your AI programming.
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Mar 5, 2021 15:50
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kilus aof posted:Always love the "small" comment in regards to Rockstar games with the amount of content they pack in and also so many potential competitors make the mistake of trying to beat them by making bigger worlds. And the the growing consensuses that games are too big now. And Rockstar mixes incredible amounts of hard coded scripting with systemic design, which means increasing map size and keeping the same quality means a linear increase in development resources. I agree and I think Rockstar does it so well that people think it's easy. On one hand you have Ubisoft making their huge but empty feeling worlds to explore, and on the other you have Rockstar packing in what many consider to be way too much stuff into a game and making it look and run great. And then you have seasoned studios with really well acclaimed games under them thinking "surely we can do that too!" and then they release something like Cyberpunk and it's a total disaster. Dreaming that you can be Ubisoft is one thing, but thinking that you can mirror or overtake Rockstar is just wrong-think and you're probably going to crash and burn and it's not going to be pretty for you.
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Mar 5, 2021 15:58
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commando in tophat posted:I dunno, if they were half competent they could turn this into some multicrew action. One guy sits at the laser, the other is rubbing potion onto the rock or something (or pilots drone that does this). I'm glad Star Citizen has potions which is basically magic now if it alters your character somehow. I guess that's creative bankruptcy or something.
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Mar 5, 2021 16:44
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Zaphod42 posted:You missed one thing; the significant addition to mining (in addition to the juice you drink that makes you mine better temporarily that you mentioned) is they're adding little gadget things you can use to "lower its resistance". That's interesting but only because it's complete roleplay. There are no NPC pirates and probably never will be so this is more like you're only vulnerable if someone chooses to pvp you. And in that situation, whether you're in or out of your defenseless miner has no real bearing- you will die either way. So mostly this is just CIG finding another little roadblock to drop on players and waste a few more minutes of their time in a gameplay loop, while RP'ing that they have a functioning game.
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Mar 5, 2021 17:12
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The Titanic posted:Elite has always underwhelmed me. This is a good way of putting it. Playing Elite always felt, to me, like playing a proof-of-concept engine demo. Me: Wow, this looks great, feels great, the sounds are spot-on, you've got a perfect lock on the feel of this universe. This is a great foundation to build a game on. Frontier: This is the game. Me: ...
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Mar 5, 2021 17:18
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Mar 5, 2021 20:15
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I saw a post over on Reddit/games about Wing Commander III and it’s truly the more things change the more they stay the same:https://www.filfre.net/2021/03/wing-commander-iii/ posted:Amidst all the hype, peculiarly little attention was paid to the other part of Wing Commander III, the ostensible heart of the experience: the actual missions you flew behind the controls of an outer-space fighter plane. This applied perhaps as much inside Origin as it did anywhere else. Chris Roberts was a talented game designer and programmer — he had, after all, been responsible for the original Wing Commander engine which had so wowed gamers back in 1990 — but his attention was now given over almost entirely to script consultations, film shoots, and virtual set design. Tellingly, Origin devoted far more resources to the technology needed to make the full-motion video go than they did to that behind the space simulator.
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Mar 5, 2021 21:17
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and didn't roberts basically reverse engineer that poo poo anyway
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Mar 5, 2021 21:19
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The Titanic posted:Elite has always underwhelmed me. Scruffpuff posted:This is a good way of putting it. Playing Elite always felt, to me, like playing a proof-of-concept engine demo. I imagine this stems from the fact that Elite cannot have any reasonable story, which means a lot for many players. Lots of people have the same issue as you two with Minecraft, even over its crafting system that it has as an advantage over Elite. Story over a procgen galaxy will always feel tiny and inconsequential (mostly because it is, the galaxy doesn't care about few systems attacked by Thargoids). And the second fact is that Elite has so many possibilities that it's impossible to appease all players, because - as with Star Citizen - everyone expects something else. There are basically at least five very decent games in this game as of this alpha (ship PvP, mining, exploring, FPS, missions) and each of them could be taken by some devs who'd spend half of Elite's budget on it and get a better game - but it'd be purely space FPS or space mining, or... Connected to the fact above is also the fact that players are sometimes outright unreasonable/unknowledgeable. The FPS part took three years to develop alone. I've seen players propose "tiny QoL additions" on twenty slides that would likely take like 4 - 5 years all in all to implement. They expected FDev to take six months. And that's without saying that everyone disagrees on what should be added as the next thing. Even you two would probably be able to specify what would help you to feel like the game is "substantial" - but it would likely be different for either of you (also likely resource hard to implement) and it would likely not fit with thousands of other players. Even the FPS is still doubted by some who'd instead want to have more planets accessible in ships only (and before Odyssey was announced, "better planets" vs "elite feet" polls were almost always 50/50 splits).
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Mar 5, 2021 21:42
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TheAgent posted:and didn't roberts basically reverse engineer that poo poo anyway And the game part isn't even fun anyway. It's laughably simplistic and repetitive compared to the mission design in, say, TIE Fighter.
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Mar 5, 2021 21:49
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Here's what MobyGames has for Wing Commander 1quote:Credits Look at all these names that aren't Chris Roberts! Even on Wing Commander ONE, much less three, Roberts' name doesn't appear on graphics programming, sound programming, or AI programming. Entirely the work of other people. He is credited for design and general "programming", but along 6 other engineers. I just don't listen to Chris Roberts talking and get the impression he's a skilled engineer. I have a feeling a lot of these other devs who don't have multi-million-dollar kickstarters deserve more of the credit than he does. I'm sure he wrote SOME code, yeah, but its entirely possible his contributions to the program were minor or even broken and had to be fixed by others. But since he's the "lead design" he gets all the credit as code-whisperer. Which is not to say that people like John Carmack don't exist in the game industry. But Roberts isn't a Carmack. He's much closer to like, Hideo Kojima. Often the way we talk about Roberts is someone who was once good at computers but fell in love with movies and got out of touch with the industry. But I'm not sure he was ever really all that good at computers. E: Somehow I can't read and missed that Chris is the second name for graphics programming  anyways my argument still stands.
Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 5, 2021 21:56
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chris roberts' unique talent is slapping his name on everything like its an endorsement of product quality and not a giant red flag signaling ineptitude
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Mar 5, 2021 22:02
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Sanya Juutilainen posted:1000 is counting all developers that ever worked on the project, though, not the team that finished it. Look at you people using "logic" and "facts", it's pure FUD! The number is half is big, thus development should be twice as long! Answer the call
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Mar 5, 2021 22:05
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TheAgent posted:chris roberts' unique talent is slapping his name on everything like its an endorsement of product quality and not a giant red flag signaling ineptitude so, basically the Trump of Video Games?
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Mar 5, 2021 22:08
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including all the shady accounting, family nepotism and bad hair
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Mar 5, 2021 22:09
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Blue On Blue posted:so, basically the Trump of Video Games? That sounds exceptionally accurate yeah.
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Mar 5, 2021 22:12
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Blue On Blue posted:so, basically the Trump of Video Games? I can't wait for Chris to incite the citizens to storm the ED offices. Queue pictures of Lando with his feet up on Braben's desk.
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Mar 5, 2021 22:16
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Tane
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Mar 5, 2021 22:18
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they honestly don't even care about any games outside the SC bubble unless its to make some kinda point about a) its good games are delayed half a decade or more b) look how many good games were delayed 5+ years c) look how bad this game is, aren't you glad SC is taking its time its all in service to whatever bullshit narrative they want to tell themselves meanwhile chris is still trying to get that mess hall scene just fuckin right remember that those leaks about the mess hall scene started in motherfucking 2016, five loving years ago TheAgent posted:
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Mar 5, 2021 22:24
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When I think "$100 million dollar sci-fi epic," my thoughts immediately turn to the thrilling sight of That's the great thing about science fiction, it allows us to imagine strange, idealistic futures where people are served food on trays and can then sit down and eat that food. Movie fuckin' magic, man. The power of dreams.
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Mar 5, 2021 23:16
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Zaphod42 posted:But Roberts isn't a Carmack. He's much closer to like, Hideo Kojima. Im sorry, maybe I’m reading this wrong, but are you suggesting that Chris Roberts and Hideo Kojima are somewhere on the same tier of video game gods? Because Chris Roberts doesn’t deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Kojima. I assume you mean they’re similar in that they fill the same roll around the office. But does Chris even do that?
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Mar 5, 2021 23:23
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Sammus posted:Im sorry, maybe I’m reading this wrong, but are you suggesting that Chris Roberts and Hideo Kojima are somewhere on the same tier of video game gods? Its not a quality assessment. Look at the context, I'm saying that neither Kojima or Roberts are engineers. They're both ideas guys, managers, directors who have a legion of engineers they can say "I want this pixel to be green instead, make it happen!" to. Kojima I am very critical of, although at least he can ship, and while sometimes I think he may push some superfluous ideas to get made he isn't nearly as crazy or out of touch as Roberts. They're also both people who LOVE movies and really want their games to be like movies in every way they can. But Kojima is an artist and Roberts has no original ideas at all.
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Mar 5, 2021 23:26
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Ok ok you’re right. Honestly, I’m not even sure if Kojima can program. He doesn’t need to, it’s not his role and all. Which is for the best really because he can never tell someone ‘oh yeah I totally would have done it better if I coded it, do it over’
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Mar 5, 2021 23:40
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Sanya Juutilainen posted:I imagine this stems from the fact that Elite cannot have any reasonable story, which means a lot for many players. Lots of people have the same issue as you two with Minecraft, even over its crafting system that it has as an advantage over Elite. Story over a procgen galaxy will always feel tiny and inconsequential (mostly because it is, the galaxy doesn't care about few systems attacked by Thargoids). I enjoyed Minecraft a lot.  I never tried to gauge what exactly makes me feel disconnected from it, but it might be that outside of space it's basically Menu Simulator, and the menus have tons of text. Reading all the text is overwhelming. The missions felt like radiant quests where I was just doing a thing because some algorithm said to do a thing, which is fine, except the presentation was that of a menu telling me about it. The feel of the ship was good, I can't really say much for the sounds, but I felt good and the lights lit up nicely as the guns fired and I knew guns were doing their gun things. I dunno. I felt like I was playing with a lot of menus, even inside the ships there were menus and menus and so much text and statistics. Menus had menus and it was all hard to navigate and I didn't know what I was doing because none of it was very intuitive. It felt like what engineers would make when they have no guidance from marketing people I guess. The pretty stuff was all just super technical, and it was just so technical that it felt like there was no personality; only details and data and menus. Some people like that. I like that. But to really dig into it I also need some personality. For Elite, I'm not sure if creating their FPS part of the game is going to give them that personality. From that demo... it didn't feel like it. It felt like a bunch of engineers decided to build an FPS game. It will be functional and work and probably have a lot of technical details... but it will be somewhat void of spirit and that magic that can turn a video game about numbers into something fun to play where the numbers aren't the only thing that's important.
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Mar 5, 2021 23:40
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Sammus posted:Ok ok you’re right. Honestly, I’m not even sure if Kojima can program. He doesn’t need to, it’s not his role and all. Which is for the best really because he can never tell someone ‘oh yeah I totally would have done it better if I coded it, do it over’ i'd bet he can, if only because he's been in the game since the msx days with few enough team members to count on one hand. the only one who can get away with not contributing code on that small of a team is, like, the composer lol
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Mar 5, 2021 23:47
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Zaphod42 posted:Its not a quality assessment. Look at the context, I'm saying that neither Kojima or Roberts are engineers. They're both ideas guys, managers, directors who have a legion of engineers they can say "I want this pixel to be green instead, make it happen!" to. You may be right, and Kojima and Roberts are basically the same as far as how they want things. I'd say the major difference between the two is that Kojima actually plays his game and other games and knows what he wants a video game to "feel like" and directs towards making sure his level of cinematic ability and feel is achieved. Roberts doesn't play games, not even his own, and can only direct to the cinematic aspect. The "feel" of his game is totally unknown to him, and he has no idea what good performance is or what other games are doing as far as how they play. If I had to guess, I'd say "playing your own loving game" turns out to be a pretty critical component of "making a loving game".
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Mar 5, 2021 23:48
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L. Ron Hoover posted:I can't wait for Chris to incite the citizens to storm the ED offices. Queue pictures of Lando with his feet up on Braben's desk. Ben in Viking horns and face paint
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Mar 5, 2021 23:51
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:Ben in Viking horns and face paint Oof
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Mar 6, 2021 00:02
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Sammus posted:I assume you mean they’re similar in that they fill the same roll around the office. But does Chris even do that? he fat lol fat ben
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Mar 6, 2021 00:06
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TheAgent posted:and didn't roberts basically reverse engineer that poo poo anyway Sort of, but actually no. The story is that during some industry event (CES? CeBIT? COMDEX? whatever was the style of the time), they were showing off WC1 and Chris, being his usual shitheel self, would prance up and down the show floor crowing about how he had reverse-engineered the code Lucasarts used in their Battlehawks series (Battlehawks 1942, Their Finest Hour, Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe). Lucasarts kindly informed Origin that they should maybe check into the matter, and perhaps they would like to be sued into a smoking crater, hint hint, nudge, nudge. Chris' bragging suddenly stopped. As told later, it was almost entirely John Miles that made the engine, possibly with some “input” from CRobber (think: “look at this Lucasarts game — make that!”).
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Mar 6, 2021 00:35
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That Elite mission was bad because you can't buy the spaceship they landed in for US$450. * ** * New cash only ** With LTI
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Mar 6, 2021 00:46
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Tippis posted:Sort of, but actually no.
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Mar 6, 2021 00:50
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:Ben in Viking horns and face paint Shaman Lesnick, I thought we were going to raid the Senate chambers. Not the cafeteria.
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Mar 6, 2021 00:55
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C-Bangin' it 
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Sanya Juutilainen posted:I imagine this stems from the fact that Elite cannot have any reasonable story, which means a lot for many players. Lots of people have the same issue as you two with Minecraft, even over its crafting system that it has as an advantage over Elite. Story over a procgen galaxy will always feel tiny and inconsequential (mostly because it is, the galaxy doesn't care about few systems attacked by Thargoids). Counterpoint: Elite loving sucks.
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Mar 6, 2021 01:10
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Zaphod42 posted:Here's what MobyGames has for Wing Commander 1 The Code Whimperer
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Mar 6, 2021 01:14
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MedicineHut posted:Counterpoint: Elite loving sucks. Fair 'nuff
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Mar 6, 2021 01:27
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Thoatse posted:The Code Whimperer 
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Mar 6, 2021 01:28
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MedicineHut posted:Counterpoint: Elite loving sucks. There were zero Elite NPCs t-posing on chairs with their eyeballs stuck on their foreheads. What the gently caress have FD been doing all this time?
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Mar 6, 2021 01:50
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