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Willa Rogers posted:Yes, in a thread talking about our society's take on sexual harassment, opinions in major media outlets like the NYT are relevant. This isn't USPol. The article is essentially speculation, not what Democrats are actually doing. It also recommends they force him out. Meanwhile: Calls mount for Cuomo to resign https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/541192-calls-mount-for-cuomo-to-resign The differences between Biden and Cuomo are situational. Biden hasn't admitted to anything WRT Reade, Cuomo has already begun trying to apologize and an investigation with subpoena power is underway. We just had a third accuser come forward about a half hour ago. Cuomo already has scandal problems and yeah lots of people in New York hate him. And frankly while he is firmly entrenched in New York, he is obviously less powerful than Biden. The media judging by the NYT opinion piece is snapping out of the Trump haze where a politician performing any normal public functions whatsoever is considered miraculous. Cuomo's competition nationally was a president whose press secretary almost never held press conferences, while he himself did not generally make appearances outside of race war rallies, and when he did he sounded like he was in sharp mental decline... Biden stumbles, Trump free-associates. Cuomo showing up was enough to make national headlines.
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Mar 2, 2021 20:26
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Sodomy Hussein posted:The article is essentially speculation, not what Democrats are actually doing. It also recommends they force him out. Good; he needs to be forced out, as does every other person in power who uses that power to sexually harass others. I'd still like Aruan to respond to my post, especially given their other hot takes throughout this thread. eta: Cuomo had plenty of non-sexpest competition in the form of governors--49 of them!--and the vast majority of them handled the pandemic better than Cuomo did, although it's harder to find governors who protected nursing-home residents, rather than the for-profit owners. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 21:47
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yea the idea that Cumo's 'competition' was Trump is absurd, just because that's how his poisoned New York rich boy brain viewed it doesn't make it true. His competition was literally every other governor as soon as it was clear federal policy was 'lol figure it out fuckers' and you can even find a lot of loving republicans even who managed to not just decimate the elderly population to avoid bad press.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:15
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I don't think it's absurd. For a period of time when the country was most afraid -- short in absolute terms, but long in memory -- New York was the epicenter of the pandemic. High stakes, lots of uncertainty. All eyes were on Cuomo and Trump, specifically, and everyone was aware of the contrast. edit: vvvvv What's your point? Cases and deaths in New York exploded and then fell and stayed low throughout the summer while the virus raged elsewhere. New York's recovery was the covid success story. indiscriminately fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 22:23
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indiscriminately posted:I don't think it's absurd. For a period of time when the country was most afraid -- short in absolute terms, but long in memory -- New York was the epicenter of the pandemic. High stakes, lots of uncertainty. All eyes were on Cuomo and Trump, specifically, and everyone was aware of the contrast. uh at the time when New York was uniquely the epicenter they were not taking it seriously. Cumo's bullshit briefings started after it became a national issue.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:26
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sexpig by night posted:uh at the time when New York was uniquely the epicenter they were not taking it seriously. Cumo's bullshit briefings started after it became a national issue. No, Cuomo started doing daily briefings March 2nd, which was the first confirmed case in New York, and continued them into June.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:37
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indiscriminately posted:
Having the highest number of cases, one of the highest death tolls in the country and being the current state with the fastest growing number of cases seems like an odd definition of a covid success story? What exactly did you mean by that?
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Mar 3, 2021 00:54
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I live in New York, the situation here was what I said it was. The last few months have been some awful poo poo, but in the summer it was nothing like this, and way different from the 800 deaths per day of the spring when only ghosts walked the streets. edit: I'm no Cuomo fan- if that's the implication of your question? I'm just trying to be honest about his image and standing last year. He, in particular, was seen as the anti-Trump. Sad but true. indiscriminately fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Mar 3, 2021 |
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Mar 3, 2021 01:15
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Speaking of New York and actually on topic, is this the first time someone 'major' like an NYT writer has outright tried to blame Reade for the dems murdering metoo? https://twitter.com/BMarchetich/status/1366827337333940224 Feels like normally it's left to tweets and half-finished implications on cable news still, so I was surprised to see it full on written out in an op-ed for the times.
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Mar 3, 2021 15:10
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E: Misread a post, nevermind
Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Mar 3, 2021 |
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Mar 3, 2021 15:23
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Some new Cuomo polling data. I will quit with Cuomo stuff though if it's too much of a derail for the thread. https://twitter.com/baseballot/status/1367165561340321803 quote:The latest Emerson College/WPIX-TV/NewsNation poll of New York voters finds Governor Andrew Cuomo in a precarious position, with his job approval underwater at 38% approval/48% disapproval. His approval is lowest among those 18-34 (22% approval) and those who are white (26% approval) and highest among Black/African-Americans (62% approval) and those living in NYC (53% approval). Women approve of Cuomo at a higher rate (43% approval/40% disapproval) than men (56% disapproval to 33% approval). quote:... conducted March 1-2, 2021. The sample consisted of New York registered voters, n=700, with a Credibility Interval (CI) similar to a poll’s margin of error (MOE) of +/- 3.6 percentage points. ... Data was collected using an Interactive Voice Response (IVR) system of landlines, SMS-to-web, and an online panel provided by Prime Panels.
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Mar 3, 2021 18:54
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sexpig by night posted:Speaking of New York and actually on topic, is this the first time someone 'major' like an NYT writer has outright tried to blame Reade for the dems murdering metoo? That writer's also a transphobe so she's pretty much got all the anti-feminist ground covered.
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Mar 3, 2021 20:52
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I think the watching how the Cuomo poo poo plays out is pretty relevant when we talk about "how do we move forward" and how politicians who clearly dont respect peoples boundaries in general are treated in the future. I feel like if the dems dont shove Cuomo out the door they clearly learned nothing and will never be able to be trusted as a party
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Mar 4, 2021 03:46
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silicone thrills posted:I think the watching how the Cuomo poo poo plays out is pretty relevant when we talk about "how do we move forward" and how politicians who clearly dont respect peoples boundaries in general are treated in the future. tbh I haven't been able to find a single prominent dem defending cuomo, even tepidly. Granted I also suspect that's because there's also some suggestions that more will come out and/or this stuff was floating around for a while. That pic of him with both hands on a woman's face is also just indefensible and plainly inappropriate
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Mar 4, 2021 05:25
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he's also, you know, the governor of New York, so even if he somehow survives this that's not necessarily much of a reflection on the national party, any more than his destruction over this would be very good, mind
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Mar 4, 2021 05:49
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GreyjoyBastard posted:he's also, you know, the governor of New York, so even if he somehow survives this that's not necessarily much of a reflection on the national party, any more than doesn’t biden’s survival already reflect on the national party?
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Mar 4, 2021 13:30
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GreyjoyBastard posted:he's also, you know, the governor of New York, so even if he somehow survives this that's not necessarily much of a reflection on the national party, any more than I’d say actively supporting a creep and a tyrant for years does reflect poorly on them. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 14:48
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He is one of the highest profile Dems around. Anything but absolute rejection reflects poorly on party, even if he doesn't hold national office. fart simpson posted:doesn’t biden’s survival already reflect on the national party? Also this.
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Mar 4, 2021 15:28
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GreyjoyBastard posted:he's also, you know, the governor of New York, so even if he somehow survives this that's not necessarily much of a reflection on the national party, any more than In 2020 he essentially became one of the most well-known Democrats in government, he got an Emmy for his TV performances. The fact that he’s a high-ranking sexpest from NY doesn’t mean the political party he belongs to won’t be further scrutinized by people around the country.
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Mar 4, 2021 15:42
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Willa Rogers posted:Yes, in a thread talking about our society's take on sexual harassment, opinions in major media outlets like the NYT are relevant. This isn't USPol. i think cuomo is a governor, not a candidate for president running against trump, and has been on a downward trend since the nursing home scandal, so the context and the willingness to jettison him is different. i think cuomo's days are numbered. pointing out differences doesn't mean i'm defending the actions of a person. why are you bringing up 'lesser evil'? what 'hot takes' have i posted in this thread? i think you're trying to pick a fight, when the sum of my posts here have been 'i don't really think its useful to talk about individual voters when instead we should be talking about institutions and individuals which have actual, real power, i.e. the democratic party' as people have said the article was literally unsourced speculation in an opinion piece form a questionable writer - it is not insight into what may or may not happen, or what the democratic party is thinking. that would be in contrast to an article, for example, where the democratic party of ny came out and said 'we stand by cuomo' - which i would roundly condemn. we just had a big conversation in d&d about how we should treat unsourced opinion articles credulously, is the nyt opinion section immune to that? the reality is right now is as far as i can see there has been no real unified support for cuomo, and a lot of ny politicans wanting him gone (or investigated, then gone) in fact, this is what the nyt published (in their news section) yesterday: quote:At the same time, the initial stages of a pending investigation into Mr. Cuomo’s actions were underway inside the offices of the state attorney general, Letitia James, who was evaluating options for an outside investigator. so it seems already pretty different than biden, both with condemnation from other high ranking democrats (in the state at least) and an investigation. if you think that's enough, thats fair, but i'd rather we at least address things that are happening rather than random opinion pieces. edit: in fact, we now have more news - again from the nyt, which has an entire special section on their website devoted to this - that the investigation is moving forward and will have subpoena power quote:When a team of outside investigators begins to examine sexual harassment allegations lodged against Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, its scope may be far broader than first anticipated. Owlspiracy fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 16:18
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This thread was really important for me to read. I feel like I've been unintentionally enabling rape culture in ways I'm horrified about in the ways I've discussed Biden. I also don't think I really understood what it meant to fully support rape survivors and stand behind the women these predators target. Thank you to the earlier posters that shared some really brave things to provide context to their posts.
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Mar 5, 2021 06:16
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Harvey Mantaco posted:This thread was really important for me to read. I feel like I've been unintentionally enabling rape culture in ways I'm horrified about in the ways I've discussed Biden. I also don't think I really understood what it meant to fully support rape survivors and stand behind the women these predators target. Thank you to the earlier posters that shared some really brave things to provide context to their posts. Do you mind sharing any specifics? Knowing what can get through to people is helpful when we talk about stuff like this. Also I'm so internet poisoned I had to read through that twice to figure out if it was a poo poo post, god help me
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Mar 5, 2021 08:02
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This article worked on a few people in the heyday of the scandal: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/05/the-attacks-on-tara-reade-are-unbelievable-bullshit
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Mar 5, 2021 09:39
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some plague rats posted:Do you mind sharing any specifics? Knowing what can get through to people is helpful when we talk about stuff like this. Also I'm so internet poisoned I had to read through that twice to figure out if it was a poo poo post, god help me I deleted it and rewrote it twice. I wasn't sure I wanted to post it. I'm fairly embarrassed. The conversations regarding systemic enabling of rapists through "greater good" rationalization and the nuances attached to that were important. I also feel like... and this is the embarrassing part, I fell for a lot of silencing propaganda. Nothing about denying this women made any sense, but when you have "reasonable people" speaking with confidence, and your family saying the same, it's so easy to come to this comfortable, passive, conclusion that doesn't challenge you. And that conclusion sucked. And I have to apologize to a couple people.
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Mar 5, 2021 14:42
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Harvey Mantaco posted:I deleted it and rewrote it twice. I wasn't sure I wanted to post it. I'm fairly embarrassed. The conversations regarding systemic enabling of rapists through "greater good" rationalization and the nuances attached to that were important. I also feel like... and this is the embarrassing part, I fell for a lot of silencing propaganda. Nothing about denying this women made any sense, but when you have "reasonable people" speaking with confidence, and your family saying the same, it's so easy to come to this comfortable, passive, conclusion that doesn't challenge you. And that conclusion sucked. And I have to apologize to a couple people. first off, the apology isn't to me in any sense but I do want to say it's heartwarming to see someone reevaluate their point of view and improve. i don't think you should be as embarrassed for falling for it as you are, if anything I think it deserves praise that you realised your error. So, a genuine question, since you've highlighted something in that post. To me, the denials have made no sense from the start, and they still don't, for many reasons that the article I posted and this thread elucidates. Since it is so clear to me, the denials have gotten my blood boiling with anger. But you raise a good point that many 'reasonable people' in the media were suddenly speaking against Tara so some ordinary peeps felt compelled to come to a passive conclusion that ignored the truth, which, while misguided, is not hateful. So, I guess I wondered: from your perspective of the time, do you feel the voices of people who believed Tara were being intentionally squashed along with hers and this is why you may have missed them? What did you think of the Megyn Kelly interview - did you watch it or perhaps skipped it assuming it would be Fox drivel? And what do you think made the Dem establishment so effective at silencing Tara's story?
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Mar 5, 2021 15:44
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dex_sda posted:first off, the apology isn't to me in any sense but I do want to say it's heartwarming to see someone reevaluate their point of view and improve. i don't think you should be as embarrassed for falling for it as you are, if anything I think it deserves praise that you realised your error. I can't really overstate how much of an echo chamber I was in of self appointed woke liberals. I think when everyone around you is like "oh that thing? No it's not credible." You just kind of accept it, and you believe the people you love and trust. Especially people who seem to be more well read than you or work in a field that implies expertise. You make your own truth based off theirs. It's a vulnerability of trust I guess. There weren't any red flags for me, which is not good. I missed the interview for the reasons you said. The democratic party represents corporate and patriarchal power in a way that appeals to people who want to feel like they're doing "the right thing" in one way, conservatives do the same thing in a different way that on average is more damaging to people. They're just different flavors of pickle for different tastes, but it's still the same drat pickle. It's a machine made to kill opposition to power, which accountability for this would be. People always joke how democrats are the most efficient losers in politics, but they're not, they're doing exactly what they set out to do and they're great at it.
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Mar 5, 2021 16:10
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Harvey Mantaco posted:I can't really overstate how much of an echo chamber I was in of self appointed woke liberals. I think when everyone around you is like "oh that thing? No it's not credible." You just kind of accept it, and you believe the people you love and trust. Especially people who seem to be more well read than you or work in a field that implies expertise. You make your own truth based off theirs. It's a vulnerability of trust I guess. There weren't any red flags for me, which is not good. I want to thank you for engaging with us and sharing your point of view. It is providing a lot of good insight into potentially common thought processes that people can go through for these situations, particularly, the stuff you posted about how this has eroded your belief in the democrats. Did you feel that way about the dems before you read through this thread or did re-evaluating your belief of Tara Reade also cause you to re-examine how you viewed the dems? I ask you this, because I believe that a large reason why Tara's allegations were dismissed or ignored is because it goes against an established narrative that the dems are the "good guys", so to speak, and are supposed to be fighting for women's rights, and other progressive causes such as healthcare, BLM, LGBTQ rights, immigration, etc. Since dems are seemingly the only party willing to fight for these causes, then it should be obvious that the individuals that make up the party believe and adhere to these ideals. Most certainly, the leader of the party should be among the absolute best of them all. Obviously, the reality of the dem party's actions do not reflect their stated beliefs. There is quite a bit of dissonance that has caused a few people, such as myself, to become completely disillusioned with the party. I'm willing to bet that quite a lot of dem voters, however, are willing to excuse, dismiss, and then outright ignore, anything that highlights this dissonance in order to maintain the narrative that the dems are not the republicans and are fighting for progressive values. Look at how many people are tying themselves into knots trying to explain how they believe Reade, but still excuse Biden anyway since they also believe that he's the only path towards progressive reform. How much of their justifications fall apart if the dems are unwilling to actually pass progressive bills and laws? I think its very important to dispel this narrative since as long as it exists, then people will be willing to help provide cover and excuses for the monsters in power that prey upon the most vulnerable. These same monsters are also hurting progressive causes since they claim to be the gatekeepers behind passing said causes, but they are seemingly uninterested in actually acting up those ideals. Unfortunately, billions and billions are spent on a media apparatus that is designed to protect and enforce this narrative. Its unlikely that this will ever succeed, but I still want to try because doing anything else feels worse to me. This post ended up being much longer than I intended so I do want to make it clear that its not directed totally at Harvey but instead more general musings.
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Mar 5, 2021 21:09
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ScootsMcSkirt posted:I want to thank you for engaging with us and sharing your point of view. It is providing a lot of good insight into potentially common thought processes that people can go through for these situations, particularly, the stuff you posted about how this has eroded your belief in the democrats. To answer your questions about democrats without going off the rails in an angry tirade I've been disillusioned with them for years, but until recently I've thought of them as still being leagues better than the alternative. They're not. I think until recently I was thinking of this in terms of one or the other, dem or con. But I don't want to support a rapist. It doesn't make me want to get Biden elected anymore to keep a Trump out, it makes me want to destroy the institution. Yes, obviously I'd want a Biden presidency over a Trump one in a vacuum but I don't want to play that disgusting game any more. I don't know what to do. I have a lot of impotent rage I need to figure out how to focus. Maybe if a party backs a rapist the point of view should be that they've chosen to lose, and who am I to get in their way? Where should the burden be? If I don't vote for the rapist am I responsible for deaths caused by the alternate administration? I didn't put the rapist up as a choice! But the choice is there. It disgusts me. I think a lot of people are confused, and don't have the logical rigor to work it through. I don't feel like I do sometimes, and feel foolish. That's why threads like this are important. They're challenging. They make you work for the answer. Anyway, I think I've taken enough attention in this thread. Thanks for being kind enough to seek out my perspective, rough as it is.
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Mar 5, 2021 21:28
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Harvey Mantaco posted:I deleted it and rewrote it twice. I wasn't sure I wanted to post it. I'm fairly embarrassed. The conversations regarding systemic enabling of rapists through "greater good" rationalization and the nuances attached to that were important. I also feel like... and this is the embarrassing part, I fell for a lot of silencing propaganda. Nothing about denying this women made any sense, but when you have "reasonable people" speaking with confidence, and your family saying the same, it's so easy to come to this comfortable, passive, conclusion that doesn't challenge you. And that conclusion sucked. And I have to apologize to a couple people. The silencing propaganda was designed by experts, refined over a couple of generations (because they've been using it ever since there was any real expectation of treating women like human beings instead of rear end and titties in the workplace) and has always had aggressive push-back implicitly threatened for questioning it. Embarrassment is a tool for use against normal people. The abusers are totally shameless, but they know how to make people feel embarrassed. They know how to use power to abuse people, which is more than just an unwanted touch or an outright rape: it's an entire library of manipulative behaviors, down to how they talk to silence others, what outfits they wear to project power, how they carry themselves, the facial expressions they ape, and the narrative they craft. They're evil people. Congratulations on not falling for it any more. It's going to suck now that you can see them doing it and you've decided you're not going to let them manipulate you. It's rather depressing seeing how they act and how other people react to their lies. Harvey Mantaco posted:...Where should the burden be? If I don't vote for the rapist am I responsible for deaths caused by the alternate administration? I didn't put the rapist up as a choice! But the choice is there. It disgusts me. I think a lot of people are confused, and don't have the logical rigor to work it through. I don't feel like I do sometimes, and feel foolish. My perspective on individual political responsibility is that in theory we are each responsible for what we let our representatives get away with. There's no such thing as "not my president" because that executive was elected by the people in a system of interlocked processes designed to provide a peaceful path for a transition of power. Even if I didn't vote for someone, once they're in office, they're my representative who I have delegated my authority and power to. If they gently caress that up, I have a responsibility to set it right. Somehow. John_A_Tallon fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Mar 5, 2021 |
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Mar 5, 2021 21:34
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That's what fucks me up about the "where do we go from here?" question. I tried and people like me tried to stop Biden from being the nominee. All that effort seemingly didn't move the needle at all. I couldn't even convince a small handful of my friends to change anything about their beliefs. I feel completely powerless watching rapists control the government and I have no idea what to do about it. I can lash out and get angry and feel a bit of relief there, but it doesn't actually change anything. How can anyone make these people be responsible for their actions? I have no hope for the future.
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Mar 5, 2021 21:56
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The difference between the party's reactions to Cuomo and Biden are illustrative of a few things: 1. You are going to get more defenders if you are viewed as important to peoples' other goals. People who think Biden being President wasn't much better than Trump being President form the core of people who believed Reade's story and called for Biden's removal from the ticket because of it. People who vastly preferred Biden's platform and demeanor to Trump's were incentivized to look the other way on it (and given huge amounts of permission by the media to do so). As opposed to being the very conservative governor of a state that's like +15-20 D who does more to block the policy preferences of the state's majority than advance them, whose replacement is very likely to be a Democrat who is better than him (hard to be worse), and not Donald Trump. 2. You are going to get less defenders if you aren't personally popular. It's not like sex pest stories weren't out there about Cuomo in 2020, but when he was "the guy who isn't downplaying the crisis like Trump or senile like Biden and goes on TV and pretends to be competent", this stuff wasn't snowballing on itself like it was when his personal favorability absolutely tanked with the nursing home scandal. 3. Multiple accusers matter, especially when there is little or no actual physical evidence outside of personal statements. Nobody else ever accused Biden - which, of course, doesn't mean that he didn't abuse other women and they didn't come forward out of fear of getting the same chilly reception Reade got. But without a pattern people are more willing to look past an allegation. (And yes, Joe Biden's behavior towards women in public has been atrocious over the decades - and I bet a much larger percentage of people would agree that she was probably treated very lovely in his office by him and other staff than agree that her assault accusation is credible - but nobody has come forward with other accounts of sexual assault.) And I think the roof coming down on Cuomo suggests that the permanent damage to #MeToo caused by people disbelieving/ignoring Reade, because of those three factors, may be overstated.
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Mar 5, 2021 22:22
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Uh, is the roof coming down on Cuomo at all? His ratings seem fairly bad but not that much worse than they were before and he's got plenty of political figures in new york saying dumb poo poo like 'well let's not ~cancel~ him...' as soon as he said he wasn't quitting.
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Mar 5, 2021 23:11
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Mellow Seas posted:And I think the roof coming down on Cuomo suggests that the permanent damage to #MeToo caused by people disbelieving/ignoring Reade, because of those three factors, may be overstated. Well let's not be too hasty on sticking a fork in Cuomo since he's still in office and NY dems are saying some pretty sus stuff on this subject https://twitter.com/NYDailyNews/status/1367915561267699712?s=20 Just th- no fo- no five women and we'll call for him to resign. He won't actually have to, of course.
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Mar 5, 2021 23:24
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e: wow that's really weird and hosed up ^^^ Come on, NY Dems. My impression just from reading the news is that Cuomo hasn't gotten away with it, yet. He's made a lot of enemies in his career.
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Mar 5, 2021 23:24
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How are u posted:My impression just from reading the news is that Cuomo hasn't gotten away with it, yet. He's made a lot of enemies in his career. As long as he's in office he is currently, actively getting away with it.
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Mar 5, 2021 23:25
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oh wow no wayquote:A fourth woman has accused New York Governor Andrew Cuomo of inappropriate behavior
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Mar 7, 2021 08:13
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At least one or two of the accusers somewhere between alluded to and outright said that there were more people who hadn't been able to speak up yet, so yeah probably will still be more people coming forward.
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Mar 7, 2021 09:30
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Looks like Cuomo just put out a statement that he'll never resign so it's now clearly up to the state democrats in power to actually impeach him. Lets see how this plays out, Cotton.
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Mar 7, 2021 21:58
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Stewart-Cousins has decided that four truly is the magic number https://twitter.com/NickReisman/status/1368653920424329216?s=20 Buuuut https://twitter.com/NickReisman/status/1368641641012137989?s=20 e: I WILL NEVER LOG OFF quote:In a conference call with reporters earlier Sunday, Cuomo struck a more defiant tone than in previous weeks, saying demands from politicians that he resign are "anti-democratic." Cuomo said his administration's work in helping the state recover from the pandemic is too important for him to step aside now.
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Mar 7, 2021 21:59
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silicone thrills posted:Looks like Cuomo just put out a statement that he'll never resign so it's now clearly up to the state democrats in power to actually impeach him. This should be considered a litmus test for one of the most important arms of the Democratic party in the country. He's a sitting executive so there are no excuses to be made about letting the voters decide, there's a pile of credible accusations, he's also an incompetent lying grandma-killer, and there's literally no chance of a chud getting in here. The only stakes are whether taking a sex abuser out of office matters more than loyalty to one's feudal party lord does. This is the lowest possible bar available to prove that Me Too was more than just a cudgel to hit Republicans with and then discard when it became inconvenient.
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Mar 7, 2021 22:07
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