|
yeah ideally you mostly just want starter to give you the microbes for leavening and souring, mostly yeasts and lactobacilli, respectively. keeping or using a lot of starter, especially aged starters, can result in a lot of enzymes (this is partly a guess, but i feel comfortable with it) that might negatively impact dough structure. to some extent this is fine, since it can offer you interesting flavours, but it can also result in gummy doughs, at least in my experience. especially if you combine this with a long ferment.
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 04:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 07:33 |
|
|
Definitely try bringing over less at feedings for a while to see if you can dilute out any undesirable enzymes. I suspect that you just have a less than ideal colony for your cooler storage/proofing temperatures in winter combined with some leftover crud from the mold scare. One solution? Less carry over at feedings for a while until it resets itself. Also guys do NOT make bread just before bed, unless you want to go to bed hungry from all the smells. My usual sourdough loaf with a bit of rye this time: 60% whole wheat, 10% dark rye, 30% AP flour. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 04:52
|
|
|
effika posted:Definitely try bringing over less at feedings for a while to see if you can dilute out any undesirable enzymes. I suspect that you just have a less than ideal colony for your cooler storage/proofing temperatures in winter combined with some leftover crud from the mold scare. One solution? Less carry over at feedings for a while until it resets itself. Yes, but having it cooled just before bed results in late-night bingeing...
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 10:05
|
|
|
effika posted:Also guys do NOT make bread just before bed, unless you want to go to bed hungry from all the smells. My usual sourdough loaf with a bit of rye this time: 60% whole wheat, 10% dark rye, 30% AP flour. That's one sexy hue of brown your loaf's got there. Definitely would tear into no matter what time of day.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 18:12
|
|
|
Finally got my King Arthur order with pullman pan and potato flakes, so I'm going to make some pain de mie. Our toaster loving sucks though: it burns any bread you put in after making the first batch, and the first batch burns unless the heat setting is set to the lowest. Anyone got a not-super-expensive toaster recommendation? Like maybe $50 and under? I could do higher if needed but uh, I don't think I need it?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2021 23:51
|
|
|
I got this one with one of those 20% off Khols coupons you get for returning Amazon stuff there. I like it. Cuisinart 2-slice toaster Edit: Wirecutter really likes this plastic cheaper version of it for only $30 effika fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Mar 4, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2021 00:45
|
|
|
my only toaster comment is that if you can find one that's affordable, one long slice is better than two normal (two long is better than four normal). you can still do two pieces of sammich-sized bread side-by-side but then also do longer slices if necessary for shmancy bread
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2021 01:24
|
|
|
Ok, goons, help me out here. I tried making a loaf of sourdough by following Babish's recipe, but it didn't turn out well at all. I did do two things differently; I used AP flour instead of a mix, and I left the loaf large instead of cutting it into two portions. I was hoping that I'd get a larger rise out of the large amount of dough, I guess. The result though, was almost inedible.   The loaf barely rose at all, and the dough was super dense, chewy, and not even very sour. You can see in the first pic, there's a line where the dough came up to in the dutch oven, and it basically didn't get any higher. And the crumb is super rubbery, almost playdough-like. The only two things I can think of that might've really effected things were that A.) the kitchen is really cold right now. Our apartment is constantly between 62f-68f this time of year. To try and combat this, I put the dough in the microwave with the light on(stupid apartment oven doesn't have a light in it). Other than that, I had been keeping my starter on the counter for almost a week by the time I used it for this dough. It had made fine pizza dough a couple of days before, and I fed it the night before I started this recipe, but maybe it was too mature? I've been trying to use up extra starter instead of just dumping it, hence the pizza dough, so maybe it was just too much waste enzymes or something? I'm not sure. Could it have been those two things? Or maybe the exclusion of the HW flour? What could've gone wrong here?
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2021 21:25
|
|
|
Hmm. The kind of flour shouldn't really matter. Have you done the float test on the starter lately? Unless it's just underbaked it's probably something to do with the starter.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2021 21:39
|
|
|
Thanks for the toaster recommendations. I want to ask about https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/pain-de-mie-recipe: it takes a while to make and I want it ready for lunch tomorrow. Is it possible to leave the dough overnight in the fridge? I'd think if so it'd be around step 2: "Transfer the dough to a lightly greased bowl or dough-rising bucket, cover the bowl or bucket, and allow the dough to rise until puffy though not necessarily doubled in bulk, about 1 1/2 hours, depending on the warmth of your kitchen." How would I do this, if so? Still do the rise for 1 - 1.5 hours? Then put it in the fridge? Or just put it straight in the fridge overnight? Ideally I'd first want to just make the recipe as-is so I can see exactly how well it works, but, I don't wake up super early.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2021 21:44
|
|
|
redreader posted:Thanks for the toaster recommendations. I want to ask about https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/pain-de-mie-recipe: it takes a while to make and I want it ready for lunch tomorrow. Is it possible to leave the dough overnight in the fridge? I'd think if so it'd be around step 2: Either would work, I think. If you put it straight in it would obviously need more time to warm up in the morning, but that would be true of the second rise anyway.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2021 22:03
|
|
|
Chad Sexington posted:Hmm. The kind of flour shouldn't really matter. The starter had been in the fridge for around 22 hours by this point, and I had fed it right before I put it in there, but I just took it out, gave it a stir, and tried the float test and it sank to the bottom like I was pouring thick milk into the water. So I gave up on saving all the leftover starter and just dumped half of it and re-fed it, being sure to actually weigh out my water and flour this time so it's actually 50/50 this time around. I probably let it go too long without actually dumping out some starter, or I didn't feed it enough before using it yesterday.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2021 22:07
|
|
|
neogeo0823 posted:Ok, goons, help me out here. I tried making a loaf of sourdough by following Babish's recipe, but it didn't turn out well at all. I did do two things differently; I used AP flour instead of a mix, and I left the loaf large instead of cutting it into two portions. I was hoping that I'd get a larger rise out of the large amount of dough, I guess. The result though, was almost inedible. its a little hard to tell from the pictures, but from your description it does seem underbaked to me. one thing to try in the future is poking a quick-read thermometer into the loaf, when mine comes out good its usually reading about 208 F at the end. if the recipe said to make two loaves and you baked the dough all together i could see that leading to lower center temperatures and less rise. fwiw i really like chef john's recipe https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/260540/chef-johns-sourdough-bread/ you don't need a banneton, a tea towel in a colander or even bowl works great.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2021 22:15
|
|
|
Chard posted:its a little hard to tell from the pictures, but from your description it does seem underbaked to me. one thing to try in the future is poking a quick-read thermometer into the loaf, when mine comes out good its usually reading about 208 F at the end. if the recipe said to make two loaves and you baked the dough all together i could see that leading to lower center temperatures and less rise. Ah, I hadn't considered that about leaving the dough as one loaf. I actually left it in for 15 minutes longer than the recipe called for to see if it would finish a bit darker. It's possible I took the lid off too soon though, given that idea. And yeah, I don't have a banneton either, I just do the towel-in-colander thing. You can see where the flour left the impression of the holes in the colander in the second pic. I'll try that recipe next time I make a loaf. So far I've tried like 4 different recipes and haven't dialed in results I'm really happy with yet.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2021 22:42
|
|
|
When I'm doing my final rise typically I do it in a tea towel lined bowl with a healthy amount of flour, but it seems like less mess and work to do it in a lightly oiled bowl, I didn't have any problems the time I did that that couldn't be explained by other stuff like not proofing long enough etc, but now I'm curious why the towel and flour over a little bit of oil?
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 01:09
|
|
|
that bread is underproofed imo. if it didn't rise much, it's usually also not going to be a great bake, even if you get it to temp you can end up with a really gummy texture. even if you have a lower activity starter, add in a pinch of commercial yeast and leave the dough in the fridge for a day or two in order to let the sour build up if it's a concern (maybe even dump in some yogurt whey). for enriched breads, anything at 190F and higher is pretty good doneness (some exceptions can be made for super enriched mega moist breads but they tend to be an exception). for lean breads, anything 200F and higher will be a pretty set crumb, especially because it's likely to rise another couple of degrees after you take it out of the oven.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 17:22
|
|
|
Baked a bread  Overall I’m very happy but is there a way I can get larger and more irregular bubbles? Also, the sourness could be more pronounced.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 17:46
|
|
|
bolind posted:Baked a bread pretty spot on with ideal bubbles imo with that said, you can try doing an autolyse before adding starters or yeasts (flour + water only), doing long ferments, very little kneading and instead lots of repeated folds, etc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 18:58
|
|
|
Making my first pain de mie using a 13 inch pan and the standard King Arthur recipe I posted above. I've been making loaves in a standard loaf pan before and I know I am very bad at shaping, especially loaves. It's like 'ok get some dough and now fold the left side over then the right side over so it's as short as possible, now that's your loaf, roll it a couple of times and it fits in the tin'. The videos make it look really easy. I always end up with some lovely half-length loaf, and that's with an 8 inch pan. Now I have a 13 inch pan and I don't have much hope I'll do it properly.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 20:46
|
|
|
Not baking any bread this weekend, just not feeling it and I ran out of stone ground flour anyway. So I used the starter discard and put it just straight in the pancake batter I was making my son. Used spelt as, you know, I ran out of wheat flour. Wife and son both commented these were the best pancakes ever, fluffy, rich in taste and just... good! I had none, so would not know but it was a nice way to get rid of starter discard.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 20:51
|
|
|
redreader posted:Making my first pain de mie using a 13 inch pan and the standard King Arthur recipe I posted above. I've been making loaves in a standard loaf pan before and I know I am very bad at shaping, especially loaves. It's like 'ok get some dough and now fold the left side over then the right side over so it's as short as possible, now that's your loaf, roll it a couple of times and it fits in the tin'. The videos make it look really easy. I always end up with some lovely half-length loaf, and that's with an 8 inch pan. Now I have a 13 inch pan and I don't have much hope I'll do it properly. All the shaping videos are boom bang zip done and into the basket or pan. You can take your time handling the dough to get it to shape correctly. For a 13" pullman, it's usually 5-10 minutes total to get it shaped out. I'll turn the dough out and start pulling it into a rectangle, let it rest, stretch some more, etc. There's no hurry to get that thing in the pan. That dough is hella forgiving.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 21:10
|
|
|
Casu Marzu posted:All the shaping videos are boom bang zip done and into the basket or pan. You can take your time handling the dough to get it to shape correctly. OH! I had no idea. Those videos are 30-60 seconds long. I worked the no-knead stuff too much during one shaping and made it too tight. From that I took the lesson 'touch the bread as little as possible'. But if you're saying to slowly get it into the right shape with resting in between, that makes sense. I know the first loaf has no chance of being good.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 21:15
|
|
|
redreader posted:OH! I had no idea. Those videos are 30-60 seconds long. I worked the no-knead stuff too much during one shaping and made it too tight. From that I took the lesson 'touch the bread as little as possible'. But if you're saying to slowly get it into the right shape with resting in between, that makes sense. I know the first loaf has no chance of being good. You prob shouldn't use the dough to take out your stress and punch it to all hell, but the no knead doughs are vastly different than an enriched dough like the KA Pan de Mie.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 21:18
|
|
|
even if you feel like the dough is too tight you can just give it extra resting time. it’s basically impossible to irreversibly overwork a dough via shaping.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 21:33
|
|
|
Ok it was totally different compared to the no-knead stuff. It was quite slack throughout and I actually used a rolling pin to get it into the right shape before folding, rolling, crimping etc and it never felt overworked or too tight. I did manage to do it in about a minute or so, no rest was needed. I suppose the only way to see if I hosed it up is to judge by the end product. Here it is doing the final proof, uncovered pic, covered it and took the second one.  edit: I wouldn't have used a rolling pin but one 'shaping a loaf' video totally used one, and I was like 'great, I'll try that'. redreader fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Mar 5, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 22:00
|
|
|
I'll say, anecdotally, that's about half the size going in as mine that fill a 13" pullman perfectly. A thing I took up doing when I got mine was keeping a bread diary. Just a little notepad where I marked down all my weights and measures, cook time and temps, anything I did funny or "wrong." Then a note afterward about what I might want to try differently. It's amazing how much you think you won't forget but definitely do between bakes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 22:25
|
|
|
Huxley posted:I'll say, anecdotally, that's about half the size going in as mine that fill a 13" pullman perfectly. It didn't expand much at all in the first rise. I put the oven on to heat up the kitchen, and turned on the heater. My wife opened the kitchen door to the outside without me noticing, lol. I let it rise for 1:45 (it said about 1:30). So What can I do now? 45 minutes of the 'prove it for 45-60 minutes then put the lid on and put it in the oven' is over, so... should I wait until it's a lot bigger before I put it in? Note: I am using proper king arthur flour and new yeast. All I can say I could have done better is to have used much hotter water. It was actually lukewarm as opposed to what king arthur calls lukewarm: 110 degrees. edit 2: I just checked the loaf and IT'S THE SAME loving SIZE AS IT WAS WHEN I PUT IT IN THE PAN, after proving for 45 minutes. I definitely 100% added all of the ingredients and the correct amount of each (I just double checked). I am putting it in the oven with the light on now to prove. The inside of the house is about 70 degrees. edit 3: yes I super definitely added the yeast! I remember doing so! https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/pain-de-mie-recipe redreader fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Mar 5, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 22:41
|
|
|
Rising time means nothing because there's a pile of different factors that come into play. You should be looking for the dough to get to a bit under the top of the pan. That could take 45 minutes, that could take 3 hours. Time estimates are just that, poo poo can vary wildly. Edit: if it didn't expand much at first rise, you prob shaped too soon. The more you bake, the more you can tell by sight/touch when first and second rises are done, rather than relying on a duration of time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 22:47
|
|
|
Casu Marzu posted:Rising time means nothing because there's a pile of different factors that come into play. You should be looking for the dough to get to a bit under the top of the pan. That could take 45 minutes, that could take 3 hours. Time estimates are just that, poo poo can vary wildly. Ok, thanks. So I'll let it rise this time a lot longer, but probably it won't be a great loaf then?
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 22:51
|
|
|
Yeah. If you used any force on the rolling pin when shaping you forced a lot of air out, it takes a long time for the yeasty bois to build that back up. Give it another hour at least.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 22:53
|
|
|
redreader posted:Ok, thanks. define great. it’ll probably taste fine; structure may be a bit iffy. fwiw as casu implies i ignore timing for fermenting bread entirely and go for volume and texture instead. my kitchen is relatively cold, rarely out if the 60s esp now. my pullmans ferment a long time as a result, sometimes for hours (i also don’t use a ton of yeast) and if you scroll through the bread you can see mine obv turn out great
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 22:54
|
|
|
Casu Marzu posted:Yeah. If you used any force on the rolling pin when shaping you forced a lot of air out, it takes a long time for the yeasty bois to build that back up. Give it another hour at least. There was literally no air to force out. It was just like a slack dough. It's like I left out the yeast or put in 2 teaspoons instead of 2 tablespoons, but 1: it's 2 teaspoons and 2: I totally put the yeast in. And it's that special baker's yeast 'Red Instant Yeast', a 2 month old bag. Worked fine last week and I keep it sealed in 2 ziploc bags in the freezer. mediaphage posted:define great. it’ll probably taste fine; structure may be a bit iffy. Thanks! Now I know. I have a proofing tub with quart markings on it so I can use that to measure if it's doubled or whatever. From now on I'll be more wishy washy about time and pay more attention to the actual volume. This is all a learning experience. I appreciate everyone's quick feedback! redreader fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Mar 5, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 22:57
|
|
|
I'm guessing your kitchen was too cold to rise in that 90 minutes and/or you didn't knead long enough to get enough gluten structure to trap the CO2.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 23:00
|
|
|
Yeah I had no idea how long to knead. I used a kitchenaid on speed 3 for about a minute, then I scraped all the dough to make sure it all got mixed in then put it back on speed 2 for another minute. It was fairly stiff but I probably didn't do it long enough. The recipe didn't have much in the way of instructions for that part. 'Combine all of the ingredients, and mix and knead — using your hands, a mixer, or a bread machine set on the dough cycle — to form a smooth, soft dough.'
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 23:02
|
|
|
Word, that's nowhere long enough. With an enriched dough like that, I'd let the mixer go like 5-10 minutes. I also usually do a couple stretch and folds in the first half hour it's in bulk ferment.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 23:06
|
|
|
I can put it back in the mixer and start the whole thing again maybe? edit: refrigerated milk probably didn't help either. redreader fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Mar 5, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 23:13
|
|
|
redreader posted:edit: refrigerated milk probably didn't help either. Yeah Id think not. I always be try to make sure my dough temperature is warm, like 22-25c otherwise proving can just take ages, even in a warm room.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 23:22
|
|
|
i mean you could but time works as well for developing structure. if it hasn’t risen at all i’d just put it in the fridge overnight and then take it out tomorrow to shape and proof. you can heat up an oven and then turn it off or put a bowl of boiling water in an oven or microwave to create a proofing chamber, too
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 23:24
|
|
|
mediaphage posted:i mean you could but time works as well for developing structure. if it hasn’t risen at all i’d just put it in the fridge overnight and then take it out tomorrow to shape and proof. I think overnight is the best bet at this point. I put it in the fridge. I appreciate everyone's help!
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2021 23:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 07:33 |
|
|
redreader posted:I can put it back in the mixer and start the whole thing again maybe? I like warming my liquid in the microwave for a bit, especially in winter. A note on kneading with a KA: they specifically say knead on level 2 only. It’s to prevent excessive wear on the gearing and motor, I believe. therattle fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Mar 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 00:32
|
|