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Platystemon posted:PHUO: the hundred thousand people who were dying every week in occupied east and southeast Asia should not be ignored when considering the decision to bomb Japanese cities and force a surrender. theyre entirely separate issues and treating them as tit for tat is another example of murderous systematizing and tunnel vision the bombs could have been dropped on tokyo bay, on an island, on a city but with advance warning, on a military target, or several other options that were proposed at the time. or they could not have been dropped at all, and some other effort could have led to a surrender. whatever the case, roasting men women and children in the name of some kind of body count calculus isn't really human behavior
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Mar 7, 2021 23:38
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America did not nuke Japan to save japanese lives lol. They had complete air and sea superiority. They coulda done a million different things but they wanted unconditional surrender and used pure terrorism to get it
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Mar 7, 2021 23:39
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It is bad to kill people.
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Mar 7, 2021 23:41
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Zzulu posted:America did not nuke Japan to save japanese lives lol. They had complete air and sea superiority. They coulda done a million different things but they wanted unconditional surrender and used pure terrorism to get it no but you see, PhD Historian Playstemon knows for a fact that if we didn't drop a nuclear bomb on two cities full of civilians then more civilians would have been hurt, and as we all know the trolley problem is an easily solved moral conundrum. therefore,
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Mar 7, 2021 23:41
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The emperor specifically mentioned the atomic bombings in his broadcast. He didn’t mince words, either: quote:Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization. Well, he didn’t mince words with regards to the cruelty of the bombs. He did mince a lot of other words, when describing the his army’s occupation: quote:We cannot but express the deepest sense of regret to our allied nations of East Asia, who have consistently cooperated with the Empire towards the emancipation of East Asia. He still almost got couped. It was not a foregone conclusion that Japan’s surrender was just around the corner, perhaps when the U.S.S.R. invaded with the fleet they didn’t have.
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Mar 7, 2021 23:49
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Hm, so we're threatening the literal end of civilization if this tiny island nation doesn't do what we want them to do. We're definitely the good guys.
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Mar 7, 2021 23:51
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It is also bad for the people we're killing to kill people. Basically just no one should kill people.
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Mar 7, 2021 23:53
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Captain Monkey posted:Hm, so we're threatening the literal end of civilization if this tiny island nation doesn't do what we want them to do. ??? That’s the Japanese emperor’s statement. He’s saying that if Japan continues to fight, civilization will end. It was not a U.S. threat.
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Mar 7, 2021 23:55
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The bombs were horrible, but also lol at spinning the literal fascist, Nazi-allied Japanese Empire as a poor innocent tiny island bullied by America.
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Mar 8, 2021 01:16
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PHUO (apparently): Blowing up civilians with radiation bombs is bad.
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Mar 8, 2021 01:22
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Byzantine posted:The bombs were horrible, but also lol at spinning the literal fascist, Nazi-allied Japanese Empire as a poor innocent tiny island bullied by America. Japan may have killed more civilians than Germany did, even, it’s just hard to tell because they didn’t keep their records as well. Stopping that level of crimes against humanity definitely changes the calculus a bit. As for why they only would accept unconditional surrender, it was less than 30 years after the Treaty of Versailles. That negotiated surrender didn’t work so well; as evidenced by world war 2 happening. With that in recent memory, there was no way they would just not invade Japan and let them be, nor should they have.
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Mar 8, 2021 01:25
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Ugly In The Morning posted:As for why they only would accept unconditional surrender, it was less than 30 years after the Treaty of Versailles. That negotiated surrender didn’t work so well; as evidenced by world war 2 happening. Do you think the problem with the Treaty of Versailles was that Germany got off too well in the negotiations?
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Mar 8, 2021 02:17
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The only upside of the nuclear bombing of Japan was that it scared Truman into putting nuclear weapons into a box only the president can open. And that was absolutely accidental. We had to murder 200k+ people to understand that maybe we shouldn't mass murder people. Specifically with nuclear weapons. Doing it with firebombs is a-ok.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:25
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cargohills posted:Do you think the problem with the Treaty of Versailles was that Germany got off too well in the negotiations? No, just that the negotiation of terms basically failed to achieve its aims entirely and that definitely colored the allies willingness to accept less than total surrender. In the case of Japan, without an unconditional surrender they wouldn’t have had the ability to tear the government down and that would have no doubt led to a recurrence in 20-40 years, the military would have couped the civilian government (they were about to in WWII anyway) and they would have gone after their neighbors again anyway.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:27
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I'm sure the souls of all those millions of civilians murdered or worse in SE Asia by the repressive forces of Japan rest easy in the knowledge that some hundred thousands or so of civilians living under the same repressive regime got obliterated in the nuclear fire for the sins of said regime. Blood for blood, eye for an eye, America gently caress yeah, of course I'm a peace-loving leftist why do you ask
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Mar 8, 2021 02:45
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whoops, double post
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Mar 8, 2021 02:45
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phuo: something can be morally reprehensible but necessary at the same time.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:49
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phuo: claiming necessity is an amazing way to justify and whitewash literally any atrocity of your choosing. it just works!
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Mar 8, 2021 02:56
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I mean, if it's necessary, it's inherently justified. Sometimes the only way to stop atrocities is to do a bigger one so people know to not do that again.
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Mar 8, 2021 03:17
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yeah I eat rear end posted:I mean, if it's necessary, it's inherently justified. Sometimes the only way to stop atrocities is to do a bigger one so people know to not do that again. Neither of those atrocities was bigger than the Holocaust/japans SEA massacres but yeah, to put a stop to that poo poo sometimes you have to do some things that would be difficult to justify otherwise.
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Mar 8, 2021 03:19
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The focus on the atomic bombing is a result of cold war era nuclear fears and cultural fears of nuclear annihilation. The actual thing that should be focused on is the use of strategic bombing on industrial centers, because as others have pointed out the atomic bombings of Japanese cities in ww2 were not all that more destructive compared to other in use tactics like fire bombing. Telsa Cola has a new favorite as of 04:41 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 03:52
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I do think nuclear weapons are things that shouldn't be used, but we wouldn't be where we are today if they hadn't been used at least once, and if we hadn't been the ones to do it, someone else would and they'd be the reigning superpower. Nuclear deterrent doesn't work if you've never proven that you are willing to use them when necessary.
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Mar 8, 2021 04:04
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Maybe if Europe had some balls and stopped the Holocaust America wouldn’t have had to stand up and lay down the law
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Mar 8, 2021 04:22
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iirc it's been well-established that terror bombing of population centres, nuclear or otherwise, didn't do much strategically-speaking, at least compared to other, more targeted approaches - neither for Axis nor for Allies.yeah I eat rear end posted:I do think nuclear weapons are things that shouldn't be used, but we wouldn't be where we are today if they hadn't been used at least once, and if we hadn't been the ones to do it, someone else would and they'd be the reigning superpower. Nuclear deterrent doesn't work if you've never proven that you are willing to use them when necessary. Who is this "we" you keep talking about?
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Mar 8, 2021 04:24
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I mean..there's only one country who has used nuclear weapons on other countries before. Who do you think? Having a constant threat of the end of humanity is necessary for world peace. We aren't there yet, but nuclear weapons are a part of getting there.
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Mar 8, 2021 04:28
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yeah I eat rear end posted:I mean..there's only one country who has used nuclear weapons on other countries before. Who do you think? Well i'm glad that the sacrificial burning of civilians in the nuclear fire has worked out for you
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Mar 8, 2021 04:34
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yeah I eat rear end posted:I mean..there's only one country who has used nuclear weapons on other countries before. Who do you think? gently caress that poo poo, pardner
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Mar 8, 2021 05:12
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Mar 8, 2021 06:29
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We’re so so close to another “Grave of the Fireflies is problematic because it depicts the bombing and subsequent suffering of Japanese citizens in a negative light” take and I can’t wait
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Mar 8, 2021 08:31
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I dont know about that but its a crap film
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Mar 8, 2021 08:37
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lol
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Mar 8, 2021 08:49
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yeah I eat rear end posted:Having a constant threat of the end of humanity is necessary for world peace. We aren't there yet, but nuclear weapons are a part of getting there. Can’t believe Ozymandias from Watchmen posts on these very forums.
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Mar 8, 2021 14:02
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Not weighing in one way or the other, but dang Shibawanko really did it this time "I think destroying a civilian population center is bad" "No their rulers were bad so it was good they were burned to death" "Okay then nuking the Japanese was good" "No that's different because"
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Mar 8, 2021 17:25
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War is bad
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Mar 8, 2021 19:41
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Actually, killing civilians is good
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Mar 8, 2021 20:43
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Shibawanko posted:actually the context doesnt matter. the act itself is grotesque, no amount of moral calculus justifies the atomic bombings especially or anything that targets civilians in those magnitudes i'm shibawanako, sitting watching the shoah, shrugging and going "to fight back would be criminal" Shibawanko posted:im really not interested in discussing the military side of it. it frankly disgusts me and i really hate american grognard attitudes towards this stuff but there were alternatives to dropping the bomb, including not invading at all that's not a correct use of grognard but good luck to your ideal america, just sitting and chilling till japan decides to just stop invading and murdering, i'm sure everything would be fine and the millions killed would feel fine. you're an idiot viewing japan as the victim and the US as an attacker when Japan started the loving war and the war needed to be ended. It was not a situation where the bully USA was just invading Japan for no reason. Shibawanko posted:theyre entirely separate issues and treating them as tit for tat is another example of murderous systematizing and tunnel vision Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 21:58 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 21:38
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Badactura posted:War is bad Collapsing Farts posted:Actually, killing civilians is good Technically these aren't mutually exclusive
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Mar 8, 2021 21:48
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PHUO: The discussion situation has developed not necessarily to the thread’s advantage.
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Mar 8, 2021 21:59
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This threads way more fun to read when its a bunch of folk discussing whether smooth or crunchy peanut butter is better
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Mar 8, 2021 22:11
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It's smooth, no contest. Why would I want to crunch my pb&j
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Mar 8, 2021 22:17
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