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Bug Squash posted:The novel establishes that p-zombies are very much a thing, or at least a plausible threat. They would mimic regular humanity as long as it results in more resources, mates, etc. and you would never know your partner doesn't have aind. Once the regular humans are gone, or they have enough numbers, it's beep boob time. Yeah but isn't it a giant point in the novel that they don't actually understand or know how to function like humans so it's incredibly easy to figure out they are faking it? Im thinking of the whole Chinse Room thing they do where it becomes apparnt through the syntax of it all that they don't really understand the conversation. The premise of the novel is that basically both sides freak the gently caress out of each other and are mutally incompatible when it comes to communicaiton and cooperation, with humans being the weird deviants in the setting. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Mar 10, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 23:06
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Bug Squash posted:The novel establishes that p-zombies are very much a thing, or at least a plausible threat. They would mimic regular humanity as long as it results in more resources, mates, etc. and you would never know your partner doesn't have mind. Once the regular humans are gone, or they have enough numbers to do a genocide, it's beep boob time. I don't know, that doesn't seem terribly plausible. Much like how having to run an emulator is always significantly less efficient than running it on bare metal. It seems like it would be a significant energy investment to be able to emulate these behaviors without having the underlying circuitry to just run it regularly. Unless their brain structure somehow is several orders of magnitude more efficient because of other efficiency gains I don't see how this would be effective.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:10
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Just start with aphantasia and extrapolate from there.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:12
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cowboy
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Telsa Cola posted:Yeah but isn't it a giant point in the novel that they don't actually understand or know how to function like humans so it's incredibly easy to figure out they are faking it? The aliens created that chat box as a weapon, to be fair. It is the novel's premise, and one that is probably wrong, is that sapience is strictly an energy waster. It's just wheels spinning doing nothing. Take out those wheels and the behaviour of the human doesn't nessesarily change. They still say and do all the same things, there just isn't anything inside aware of it.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:40
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Bug Squash posted:The aliens created that chat box as a weapon, to be fair. That awareness grew out of the ability to predict possible future outcomes, and to do that you kind of need the ability to hold your own internal viewpoint of the world, external from reality itself. I would argue that sapiency is the natural consequence of that line of evolution, and having intelligence and sapiency as somehow separate things and arguing you could only have one of them instead of both is kind of stupid. I enjoyed Blindsight, but I'm basically disagreeing on the basic premise the author presents. This is why I could never get into the sequel, because (at least my edition did) it came with an essay from the author explaining his thought process and after reading that essay I decided the guy was full of poo poo and it deleted all my enjoyment in one fell swoop.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:45
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Is there really any selective pressure for energy cost of the brain though? Saving 15 calories over the course of a day doesn't seem like something that would really matter to a modern sapient human where you can eat a 1000 calorie meal for 5 dollars. Your variation in walking habits world probably overshadow that energy cost. Now if that translated to improved cognitive function or ability to find mates, sure. Then at least you'd have a plausible mechanism for it spreading and making you more appealing as a mate or survive to reproduce.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:50
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Telsa Cola posted:Yeah but isn't it a giant point in the novel that they don't actually understand or know how to function like humans so it's incredibly easy to figure out they are faking it? IRC the chat bot was created from very little information by just remotely observing human transmissions over a couple of years. If they had more information and a better understanding of the human mind they probably would have done a lot better. I don't see a reason why they shouldn't have been able to create something that passes the turing test or is even a perfect human mind emulator with enough time and practice.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:55
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FFT posted:Just start with aphantasia and extrapolate from there. This is me. It's weird thinking most of you can picture things in your mind.
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Mar 11, 2021 00:11
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Nitrousoxide posted:Is there really any selective pressure for energy cost of the brain though? Saving 15 calories over the course of a day doesn't seem like something that would really matter to a modern sapient human where you can eat a 1000 calorie meal for 5 dollars. Your variation in walking habits world probably overshadow that energy cost. Not due to energy cost but because in the human brain most non-sapient functions(like instincts and reflexes)are substantially faster and efficient than the sapient ones. Being able to do abstract thinking with the same speed and computation power as you are able to predict where a thrown ball will land would be an immense evolutionary advantage. It's of course unclear if the low speed and power of higher mental functions is because of sapience or just because of the bad evolutionary optimization due to the young age of these brain parts. Also, that is if sapience even exists. I've been high enough to just be the part of my brain that feels my leg muscle or the part that generates the sensation of craving and it didn't feel any different than being whatever the gently caress is writing this message right now except that I had no memory or awareness of existing, so I'll reserve my judgement for now 
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Mar 11, 2021 00:21
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Blanking out completely and nevertheless continuing on your activities without impediment is pretty comfy.
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Mar 11, 2021 00:42
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I'd say that sapience, and thoughts about sapience, consume more mental and caloric energy than non sapience that doesn't give a gently caress and will slice you open and eat you (did they cook their meat for the energy of cooked food the book )
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Mar 11, 2021 00:59
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Sci-fi authors that don’t understand how personality, humor, and self reflection may be sexually selected traits?!?
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Mar 11, 2021 01:03
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D-Pad posted:This is me. It's weird thinking most of you can picture things in your mind. That book we discussed in another thread, what did you perceive when you were reading about the main character exploring that baroque setting? I'm trying to imagine that and it's blowing my mind. Sorry probably a derail. Brendan Rodgers fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 01:20
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If you want other variations in the inner life of the human brain. There are some people who don't have an internal monologue.
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Mar 11, 2021 01:42
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Brendan Rodgers posted:That book we discussed in another thread, what did you perceive when you were reading about the main character exploring that baroque setting? I'm trying to imagine that and it's blowing my mind. Which book was this? I read a ton, minimum of a fiction novel a week and often two, but yeah I don't have an actual picture in my head while I am reading. It's really hard to describe what it's like for me. I've read accounts of others with aphantasia and how they read fiction and mine isn't really like theirs. It's not just a cold reading of words and filing of facts. There's something there, a unique "feeling" of the scene being described is the best way I can put it but no actual picture or movie in my head. When I'm into a book I don't even consciously notice the words as I read them, I am there in what they are describing and it's unfolding before me...except it's not visual. Like I said it's really hard to describe. I also don't have an inner narrator or voice unless I consciously make one happen, although I can't make a visualization happen like I can with a voice. Things and concepts just have feelings for me. It's like synathesia but instead of a combination of senses it's a combination of the concepts and associations that make up a thing if that makes sense. I often am able to make connections and intuitive leaps between things faster than others or that others never make and I think it has to do with how it works for me. For the longest time I thought people weren't being literal when they ask you to visualize something in your head. I also thought inner dialogue in a movie or TV show was just a trope to communicate non verbal thoughts to the audience not that people actually have dialogue running through their heads all day. Edit: a good example is when I go back and proofread this post I do have an inner voice reading it off to me because I am consciously trying to focus on each word and catch mistakes. When I'm reading your post or a book it's basically just pure meaning flowing into my mind as my eyes scan the page is the best way I can describe it. D-Pad fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 01:50
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My inner narrator voice is pretty much constantly going on 24/7. A lot of it is related to planning though. What should I do next what will I be doing this week. Are there any tasks that I forgot about. How do I go about accomplishing this task that I'm planning on doing. That sort of thing. I also use a variation of the mind palace to help me remember things by their location spatially in the made-up repository. I only really use it for hard to remember things however. Names especially are anathema to me and I have an extremely hard time remembering them so they go into the mind palace. That way I'm swapping the effort of remembering a name for the effort of remembering a place which I much better at. Sounds like I'm pretty much the antithesis of you.
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Mar 11, 2021 01:58
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Weirdly I do get ear worms stuck in my head and I do have an inner voice for that. I'm guessing it's because music is processed by a slightly different part of the brain. That poo poo drives me crazy.
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Mar 11, 2021 02:03
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i do the inner voice thing (and it's sometimes annoying because i can't make it go faster than my actual spoken voice when i'm trying to read or reason quickly), but i've almost never visualised stuff
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Mar 11, 2021 02:09
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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I only have a coherent inner monologue for writing, slow careful reading, or formulating/recalling conversations. The rest of the time it's mostly running silent or sometimes spouting random nonsense that I sometimes vocalize, this last a trait which I seem to have inherited from my mother. Complete silence when speedreading, doing calculus, or physical tasks unless my attention drifts.
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Mar 11, 2021 02:13
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Nitrousoxide posted:Is there really any selective pressure for energy cost of the brain though? Saving 15 calories over the course of a day doesn't seem like something that would really matter to a modern sapient human where you can eat a 1000 calorie meal for 5 dollars. Your variation in walking habits world probably overshadow that energy cost. Things that don’t matter one way or another are the exact things evolution dumps without a thought.
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Mar 11, 2021 02:24
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that sounds great really does external sound like dogs barking or cars honking bother you/throw off your concentration? This also reminds me of The Expanse the scientist who's mind was done a number on to make him emotionless to study at 100% efficiency.
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Mar 11, 2021 02:24
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Sjs00 posted:that sounds great really does external sound like dogs barking or cars honking bother you/throw off your concentration? Oh man for me it's not loud noises that make it hard to read, it's speaking. If there's a significant voice going on than it literally drowns out the ability for me to "hear" my inner voice making it all but impossible to read since I'm effectively "reading aloud" with my inner voice.
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Mar 11, 2021 02:28
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Sjs00 posted:that sounds great really does external sound like dogs barking or cars honking bother you/throw off your concentration? Not really, I can ignore most sounds that annoy others around me.
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Mar 11, 2021 03:03
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FFT posted:Just start with aphantasia and extrapolate from there. Huh. Interesting. I’ve never been able to picture faces or people in my head but I can recognize them. Like if someone I was close with asked me what their face looked like through a text message I’d just say “umm, you have [color] eyes and [length] [color] hair.” Ask me to describe my apartment and I can tell you about the layout and vaguely what it looks like (“there’s a living room and two bedrooms, a [color] rug in the living room and [furniture] in [color/style]”) but I can’t imagine it. There’s just nothing there. Give me a piece of paper and I can sketch the layout for you, but I can’t “see” it. I can tell you about the trail I walk/run through every morning (“it’s through a neighborhood, and then I loop off into the woods, there’s a lake, sometimes I see cats, sometimes I see herons, they really need to repair the footbridge that crosses the small creek”). But once again, I can’t really picture it. Like, if you ask me to describe something it’s all a series of facts that I know. I know what that lake looks like and how big it is, but if I close my eyes I can’t picture it. I’ve never liked LEGO (blasphemy I know) because I can’t imagine anything to build. I’m also bad at Minecraft cause of the same reason. I should read more about this… E: If I close my eyes and try really hard I can imagine what my living room looks like I guess, but it doesn’t come natural and I have to really focus. I could list off the objective facts about it that I remember on a moment’s notice though. Weirdly enough, one thing that I can picture without trying are math equations lol. Like I can clearly picture what y(x) = ln(x) looks like for example. Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 04:10
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So blindsight is arguing your the next stage of human evolution. Goons will go on to conquer the galaxy?
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Mar 11, 2021 05:42
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The apparent differences of how we visualise our thinking speaks more to the difficulty of communicating it then actual difference.
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Mar 11, 2021 06:43
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suck my woke dick posted:i do the inner voice thing (and it's sometimes annoying because i can't make it go faster than my actual spoken voice when i'm trying to read or reason quickly), but i've almost never visualised stuff This is fascinating. I've noticed over time that my internal reading voice is both slightly faster than my reading speed and slower than my speaking voice. But the real trouble starts when I don't slow myself down by giving myself a funny voice and switch to some sort of qualia-only internal voice because that one is faster. Nice for thinking and planning on your own, but it makes it a bitch to explain your reasoning to other people: Stuff I kind of intuitively grasp in seconds then take minutes or even hours of tedious talking to bring across externally. Sometimes I wish I could just beam my silent voice directly into people's minds instead of all this exhausting talking.  When I was a teenager, I wasn't aware of those speed differences and people kept complaining because I was constantly talking way too fast: I kept stumbling over words or ran out of breath. Also the Human tongue wasn't made for constant gabbing. My poor throat. Anyway, a lot of the ideas and premises of Blindsight and its sequel sound neat, but ultimatively failed to convince me because I can just go internally silent like the P-Zombies basically at will and I'm sure I'm not something unique and special, which just straight up decapitates the author's views on sapience.
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Mar 11, 2021 11:36
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Libluini posted:Anyway, a lot of the ideas and premises of Blindsight and its sequel sound neat, but ultimatively failed to convince me because I can just go internally silent like the P-Zombies basically at will and I'm sure I'm not something unique and special, which just straight up decapitates the author's views on sapience. Not vocalizing thoughts is not the same thing as being unconscious though. Being a p zombie would probably be more something akin to being in a sleep or in a coma or dead. Like, in your sleep your body keeps breathing, beating its heart, feeling temperature and pain but there is just nothing really experiencing it(or at least we do not form any memories of experiencing it).
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Mar 11, 2021 13:17
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GABA ghoul posted:Not vocalizing thoughts is not the same thing as being unconscious though. Being a p zombie would probably be more something akin to being in a sleep or in a coma or dead. Like, in your sleep your body keeps breathing, beating its heart, feeling temperature and pain but there is just nothing really experiencing it(or at least we do not form any memories of experiencing it). The thing is, we can't experience the difference since P-Zombies are like Boltzmann-brains in that they don't exist So when I postulate the author is wrong about the nature of sapiency, the only way to prove me wrong would be to make an actual P-Zombie. But this runs into the obvious problem that we don't know the nature of sapiency. So there's no way to conclusively prove a P-Zombie has no consciousness. So in other words, his ideas are not even a nice thought experiment, as the few things we do know about how brains work tell us nothing should have any form of consciousness, yet here we are. In my view, the author of Blindsight does the biology-equivalent of searching for Atlantis in Bolivia: His hypothesis sounds fascinating, but isn't really connected to anything in reality.
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Mar 11, 2021 15:30
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Lampsacus posted:The apparent differences of how we visualise our thinking speaks more to the difficulty of communicating it then actual difference. I don't think this is true. Yes it is very hard to communicate the differences but there are studies showing that people have a broad range of inner experience that can be quite different from one another. Libluini posted:The thing is, we can't experience the difference since P-Zombies are like Boltzmann-brains in that they don't exist Isn't the whole point that you can't distinguish whether someone is a p-zombie/chinese room or not? I'm not saying they do exist, but if they did we wouldn't know. Did you read Blindsight? It addresses both the possibility of human p-zombies as well as the aliens as two separate (but similar) things. You very well may be right, but his idea about aliens having no conscious experience while having emergent intelligence is certainly possible as we have similar (though less complicated) organisms such as ants here on earth. For me the terrifying part of Blindsight was the idea of an alien race that is smarter and more advanced than us by several orders of magnitude but having no "mind" with which to engage with on any level. There is a really good Stephen King short story I wish I could remember the name of where a scientist discovers the nature of consciousness and it is quantum and can be measured. He discovers something like only 10% of people aren't p-zombies and it causes big issues in society.
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Mar 11, 2021 15:49
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I mean, a p-Zombie is just a traditional general AI optimizer which happens to be running on flesh instead of silicon.
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Mar 11, 2021 15:56
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When I read I try to imagine "voice actors" for the different characters. This is way easier if I've already seen an adaption, in which case I imagine the actual actors as best as I can voicing their roles.
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Mar 11, 2021 16:10
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Raenir Salazar posted:When I read I try to imagine "voice actors" for the different characters. This is way easier if I've already seen an adaption, in which case I imagine the actual actors as best as I can voicing their roles. I don’t do this, but I’m currently reading old x-men comics and I can’t stop imagining the characters speaking in their voices from the 90s cartoon, which I haven’t thought about since I was in the 7th grade.
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Mar 11, 2021 16:13
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Xavier is always going to be Patrick Stewart for me now.
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Mar 11, 2021 16:18
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D-Pad posted:For me the terrifying part of Blindsight was the idea of an alien race that is smarter and more advanced than us by several orders of magnitude but having no "mind" with which to engage with on any level. 
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Mar 11, 2021 16:18
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P-Zombies are something of a concerning philosophical conceit because it just sorta feels like people will abuse it to justify eliminating people. Rather than as a springboard to talk about "what is consciousness?" On the other hand its an interesting contrast to the 'hierarchy of sentience' from Card's Enderverse books, which mainly distinguished aliens by our ability to communicate with them. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 16:40
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P-zombies are in the category of being an interesting epistemological problem, but in practical terms I bet you could put someone in an fmri, have them do a bunch of cognitive tasks, record how their brain behaves, then switch places and do all the stuff yourself and compare the two records. If they’re similar, it means you can be reasonably confident you both have some version of consciousness, no matter how the qualia may differ.
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Mar 11, 2021 17:33
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Stimulus -> Response We generally don't ascribe consciousness to ants or bees and yet their collaborative efforts can be quite impressive for their size. Some studies have implied that consciousness may just be a part of us that justifies our actions after the fact. Some decisions appear to be made and acted upon before we're ever conscious of them. But it can't be quite that cut and dried, or how am I typing this or considering this? Pure determinism through an unimaginably complex electrochemical system? Well, if determinism is true there's not really a difference between a person with the perception of consciousness and one without, is there? Still operating on the same stimulus -> response structure, but maybe one's wasting energy pretending it's not on autopilot. Quick: make a decision that's not in response to my asking you to make a decision!
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Mar 12, 2021 11:35
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All shitposts were determined the very instant the universe came into existence.
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Mar 12, 2021 12:20
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It really feels like the whole point of the concept of P-zombies is that "minds" are just a modern retelling of the idea of "souls" and aren't real and don't do anything. Like if someone made a potion that killed your mind but left you exactly behaviorally identical, then if someone poisoned you with it no one would ever know and you would always answer you had not been and if you lived a tortured life and wanted to end it you would drink the potion over and over claiming it had not worked.
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Mar 12, 2021 13:59
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