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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Agatha kills a half dozen witches and her own mother at the start of episode 8 and the dialogue makes it clear she's been loving around with dangerous forbidden magic risking the whole coven and also she has the Darkhold which is literally a book of forbidden dark magic. I'm not sure what part of self defense you're confused about sir. So just imagined slights and wild speculation?
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Mar 11, 2021 14:48
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King Of Coons posted:I'm not sure what part of self defense you're confused about sir. So just imagined slights and wild speculation? It's weird to go to bat for someone the text of the story shows to be a life stealing villain but you do you. I guess the other witches she killed while they were trying to defend their coven and enforce their laws don't count because she... claimed she could control dark magic? Which she then was shown to either 1) not be able to do when she killed everyone or 2) was lying about when she killed everyone.
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Mar 11, 2021 14:56
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Wanda did to Agatha what Agatha did to Ralph, except she used him as a soldier.
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Mar 11, 2021 14:56
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King Of Coons posted:I'm not sure what part of self defense you're confused about sir. So just imagined slights and wild speculation? Agatha also says that the power of the Scarlet Witch is dangerous, but does she offer to teach Wanda to control it? No, she poses as a friend and tries to steal it.
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Mar 11, 2021 14:56
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The X-man cometh posted:Agnes can do anything she wants, she's a jail cell for Agatha, but that's better than the raft. There are a lot of people who would disagree with that assessment that mental imprisonment is preferable to physical imprisonment. Which includes all the townspeople we see, who beg Wanda to allow them to die rather than continue to be prisoners in their own mind after only a few weeks only a few minutes before Wanda condemns Agatha to the same thing. BrianWilly posted:Just to be clear, we have zero idea who is going to be in charge of SWORD or the FBI or whatever at this point and it'd be strange to expect Wanda to just assume it'll be someone like Monica, who suggested nothing of the sort, or Jimmy, who she didn't even meet. It'd be less weird when she sees Monica in charge of the SWORD cleanup after Hayward is taken into custody. Which is ignoring the possibility Monica raised herself a few episodes ago, that Wanda knows her after being in her head because she's been under Wanda's influence in the hex.
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Mar 11, 2021 14:59
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tsob posted:There are a lot of people who would disagree with that assessment that mental imprisonment is preferable to physical imprisonment. Which includes all the townspeople we see, who beg Wanda to allow them to die rather than continue to be prisoners in their own mind after only a few weeks only a few minutes before Wanda condemns Agatha to the same thing. The townsfolk are innocent people who don't know what's happening, don't know what's happening outside of the Hex and feel all of Wanda's grief. Agatha is a centuries old witch who is well aware of what's happening and presumably is not forced to feel what Wanda is feeling. It's probably not the exact same thing.
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Mar 11, 2021 15:02
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:It's weird to go to bat for someone the text of the story shows to be a life stealing villain but you do you. I guess the other witches she killed while they were trying to defend their coven and enforce their laws don't count because she... claimed she could control dark magic? Which she then was shown to either 1) not be able to do when she killed everyone or 2) was lying about when she killed everyone. It's very possible those weak willed witches simply just didn't understand the power she was learning and their jealousy led to their demise. That there have been no documented crimes from Agatha over four centuries points to that the book was not evil possibly misunderstood. live with fruit posted:Wanda did to Agatha what Agatha did to Ralph, except she used him as a soldier. Ralph was already mind controlled. Agatha taking over most likely relieved him of Wanda's nightmares. Jedit posted:Agatha also says that the power of the Scarlet Witch is dangerous, but does she offer to teach Wanda to control it? No, she poses as a friend and tries to steal it. Taking the power from someone who has demonstrated they have no idea what they're doing and is prophesied to destroy the world. Keep it for herself is the most responsible choice.
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Mar 11, 2021 15:04
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King Of Coons posted:Ralph was already mind controlled. Agatha taking over most likely relieved him of Wanda's nightmares. She made him think he was Wanda's dead brother, which led to him getting attacked by both Wanda and Monica. She moved him from one prison to another more dangerous prison.
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Mar 11, 2021 15:07
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live with fruit posted:She made him think he was Wanda's dead brother, which led to him getting attacked by both Wanda and Monica. She moved him from one prison to another more dangerous prison. We actually don't know what is was like under Agatha's control. She also gave him super speed.
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Mar 11, 2021 15:11
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King Of Coons posted:We actually don't know what is was like under Agatha's control. She also gave him super speed. Which led to him getting blasted by Wanda and flipped by Monica, who he was physically holding prisoner. Agatha's lucky, not that she actually cares, that Ralph didn't get hurt worse.
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Mar 11, 2021 15:13
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tsob posted:It'd be less weird when she sees Monica in charge of the SWORD cleanup after Hayward is taken into custody. Which is ignoring the possibility Monica raised herself a few episodes ago, that Wanda knows her after being in her head because she's been under Wanda's influence in the hex. 2) Monica isn't even in charge of the cleanup. The FBI is.
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Mar 11, 2021 15:16
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tsob posted:When are we explicitly shown that half the people in it could have broken out on their own, out of interest? Its discussed in Agents of Shield, briefly, about how Shield doesn't actually have good holding facilities for those with superpowers. And how even the Raft can't hold everyone, unless they choose to stay.
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Mar 11, 2021 15:19
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live with fruit posted:The townsfolk are innocent people who don't know what's happening, don't know what's happening outside of the Hex and feel all of Wanda's grief. Agatha is a centuries old witch who is well aware of what's happening and presumably is not forced to feel what Wanda is feeling. It's probably not the exact same thing. I doubt the shared memories or emotional baggage that pushed it over the line from tolerable to torture, frankly. Never mind that when Agatha realizes what Wanda is going to do she begs her not to with no pretense of power or position, and calls her cruel for doing it. BrianWilly posted:1) Wanda flew off before the cleanup. I recalled Monica directing a few people before Wanda flies off, but that isn't the case checking again. Still, Wanda gives Monica a questioning look before she goes off with Vision and the kids to let them go and then checks in with Monica again before she leaves, so it's doubtful she thinks Monica has no power. Monica also again notes that Wanda "knows" she would bring her mother back in their last conversation, implying she knows Monica well despite their short history due to being in her mind. Which would almost certainly include knowing who her mom was and her authority in SWORD. KittyEmpress posted:Its discussed in Agents of Shield, briefly, about how Shield doesn't actually have good holding facilities for those with superpowers. And how even the Raft can't hold everyone, unless they choose to stay. The majority of people we see in the Raft during Civil War have no powers without external equipment (i.e. Clint, Sam and Scott) and there's no point to Wanda being in a straight jacket if not to restrain the use of her powers, given they require hand gestures to use so far as anyone knows. So I would take that with a whole container full of salt. tsob fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 15:32
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Everyone posted:Also, per "D&D is BS," I wouldn't be even a little bit surprised if Agatha goaded Wanda into doing what she did because Agatha had already set up a contingency plan to get out of it. We're all going "Oh, no how horrible that Wanda trapped Agatha forever like that!" when off screen, 30 seconds after it happened Ralph Bohner gave her a scroll or some of Sparky's fur or something and Agatha popped back to normal right there. "You can't change or alter another witch's spell" suggests it's permanent. Or whatever. tsob posted:The majority of people we see in the Raft during Civil War have no powers without external equipment (i.e. Clint, Sam and Scott) and there's no point to Wanda being in a straight jacket if not to restrain the use of her powers, given they require hand gestures to use so far as anyone knows. So I would take that with a whole container full of salt. I assumed Wanda was drugged, as well. GORDON fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 15:37
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tsob posted:I doubt the shared memories or emotional baggage that pushed it over the line from tolerable to torture, frankly. Never mind that when Agatha realizes what Wanda is going to do she begs her not to with no pretense of power or position, and calls her cruel for doing it. Just going off of what people said when they were unlocked, Norm was worried about his father, Dottie was worried about her daughter and the town in general said they suffered through Wanda's nightmares. They all had very specific concerns or complaints.
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Mar 11, 2021 16:00
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Remember too that Agatha was going to recast the hex, trappings the townspeople again but with Wanda trapped inside as well. There is not a prison on earth that could have held Agatha but the one Wanda put her in.
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Mar 11, 2021 16:17
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The show doesn't actually make clear what's happened to Agatha. The Halloween episode implies that Wanda was unconsciously controlling the actions of the townspeople. The people on the outskirts barely moved, either because they were further from Wanda or they just weren't important to the plot so she didn't waste energy giving them intricate scripts. So does Agnes actually have control now (within the confines of her new personality) or is the rest of her life going to be scripted? V Hell for all we know SWORD might Raccoon City the whole town to keep it quiet. stev fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 16:24
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Agatha's probably going to the Raft anyway so really Wanda did her a favor because now there's no need to tie or drug her up.
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Mar 11, 2021 16:48
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Agatha's going to be released by the Endgame rat iwho is the Living Tribunal
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Mar 11, 2021 17:18
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I can't believe that people are still trying to claim that the Townsfolk literally begging for death as a release probably weren't suffering that much or having anything distinctly bad happening to them.
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Mar 11, 2021 17:44
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The X-man cometh posted:How is Agatha enslaved? She's free to do whatever she wants, just with a personality transplant. The Hex is gone, and she's not being summoned to act in Wanda's TV life any more. Rewriting someone's personality so they will act according to your wishes is a form of enslavement, the fact you keep trying to somehow defend this is sort of creepy.
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Mar 11, 2021 18:04
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tsob posted:I recalled Monica directing a few people before Wanda flies off, but that isn't the case checking again. Still, Wanda gives Monica a questioning look before she goes off with Vision and the kids to let them go and then checks in with Monica again before she leaves, so it's doubtful she thinks Monica has no power. Monica also again notes that Wanda "knows" she would bring her mother back in their last conversation, implying she knows Monica well despite their short history due to being in her mind. Which would almost certainly include knowing who her mom was and her authority in SWORD.  even now. "Wanda knows Monica's mom ran SWORD" is not indication of anything. Wanda knows Maria even less than she knows Monica! And it's all irrelevant anyway 'cuz Monica's not running SWORD! The fact is that we're given no reason to think that the SWORD is magically being run by good people now, that they -- or any other federal organization -- somehow provide tip-top counseling or something for their prisoners, or that they're even capable of holding fully-powered mystic threats in any humane condition in the first place.Discussion about the show, from both ends, would go a lot more smoothly if people engaged with what the story actually depicted and not what they imagine it depicted so that it makes their points more salient.
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Mar 11, 2021 18:05
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King Of Coons posted:It's very possible those weak willed witches simply just didn't understand the power she was learning and their jealousy led to their demise. That there have been no documented crimes from Agatha over four centuries points to that the book was not evil possibly misunderstood. We really don't know what the relationship was between Ralph and Agatha. It is interesting that the first thing he said when Monica pulled Agatha magic necklace off of him was "Oh, God! Please, spare my life!" Not "Who are you? What's happened?" or "Oh thank God you freed me." That suggests that if Ralph was a soldier he was a fairly willing soldier for Agatha. We barely see Agatha during the 70s episode when she was displaced as Wanda's "bestie" by Monica/Geraldine. It's possible that she left the Hex for a time to do some in-depth magical and/or internet research on Wanda and Pietro. Then she fed that knowledge to Ralph (along with her own script for how to act with Wanda) to use when he was Pietro. Also, as far as the "can't do magic without speaking/gesturing" goes, Agatha's immunity to Billy's mind-reading in Ep. 7 didn't require constant hand gestures or speech. Hell, for that matter, the necklace/talisman that gave Ralph superspeed was an object imbued with Agatha's power. She could easily have imbued some other object to let her break out of conventional binding/jail. Even Wanda transforming Agatha into "Agnes" might not stop something like that, since we know fro Episode 5 that objects transformed by the Hex retain some of their properties (Monica's Kevlar "tie dyes). In some ways Wanda vs. Agatha wasn't really a "mirror match." It was probably closer to Hulk vs. Thor. Hulk is stronger/tougher/etc than Thor, but Thor is a much better actual trained, experienced fighter.
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Mar 11, 2021 18:34
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BrianWilly posted:Look, this is gonna sound harsher than it is, but you've made like three completely unwarranted assumptions in a row, each of them dependent on the other, to rationalize why Wanda or Agatha being held by SWORD wouldn't be completely terrible. You're still doing it She doesn't need to know anything about Maria to know that Monica is well connected in SWORD from her memories, and that Monica has some expectation of command passing to her. Discussion of the show has basically ran it's gamut already going off what is provided for definite in the show. There is nothing further that can be stated beyond "well she did the thing she did, because that was what she did". Anything further requires some speculation; even assigning it motive or reason requires some speculation. We know the Raft was capable of holding Wanda. Wanda knows the Raft was capable of holding Wanda. So there's no reason to suppose she wouldn't think the Raft is capable of holding Agatha. I doubt Wanda would care whether SWORD is run by good people when it comes to Agatha in particular, because she's already demonstrated that she's happy to do something that Agatha herself characterized as cruel to her. Why would putting her in the hands of bad people be a problem at that point? It might be a problem if she thinks of them as incompetent, but we're not given any reason to think she characterizes them that way.
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Mar 11, 2021 19:04
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeqX4d3cWqk One more week.
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Mar 11, 2021 19:41
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I'm really looking forward to the making of episode coming out tomorrow. My only wish is that Disney would produce more of that stuff, they had a nice long 6 episode making of series for Mandalorian season 1 but then only one episode of behind the scenes stuff for season 2. They didn't even talk about Luke Skywalker showing up at the end of Mandalorian season 2! Gimme as much behind the scenes stuff as possible, I used to watch those movie magic shows all the time growing up and I loving love seeing how the sausage is made.
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Mar 11, 2021 19:56
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:They didn't even talk about Luke Skywalker showing up at the end of Mandalorian season 2! Yeah, this really bugged the poo poo out of me. Like, how do you not even refer to this? I guess it was because the BTS episode was produced before the last episode aired, and they were worried something would leak, but it's still a huge blind spot.
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Mar 11, 2021 20:23
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After having watched the last episode of Wandavision (and caught up with the thread), I have to agree that the ending felt rushed. I'm wondering it was originally intended to have a few more episodes and having a global pandemic during shooting led to some re-writes and episodes getting smushed together.
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Mar 11, 2021 20:42
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lol at the idea that Agatha was ever looking at time in the Raft, she wouldn't even need magic to find dozens of witnesses to say Wanda was insane and dangerous and that Agatha was the only one who tried to stop her. hell, if any of them read the script, they'd know Agatha was the one who did save them in the end. Does anyone other than Wanda know that Agatha was doing some crazy immortal magic stealing plot?
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Mar 11, 2021 21:01
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Rockstar Massacre posted:lol at the idea that Agatha was ever looking at time in the Raft, she wouldn't even need magic to find dozens of witnesses to say Wanda was insane and dangerous and that Agatha was the only one who tried to stop her. Even if they did Agatha's counterpoint would be: Yeah, I wanted to steal the magic away from the grief-crazed lady who enslaved and tortured a whole town and was prophesied to eventually destroy the world. Like Thanos. But with more mind control torture. You're welcome.
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Mar 11, 2021 22:14
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MissMarple posted:The Raft does exist, it's just only been used to hold Avengers or characters from Jessica Jones off camera. tsob posted:Wanda tells her Vision that he is made out of the part of her that is the Mind Stone, and the Mind Stone was what was used to animate Vision originally, so it's likely that White Vision needs something from the Mind Stone or Wanda to be "complete".
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Mar 11, 2021 22:25
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Plus, how evil could Agatha really be if she's been at it for 400 years without anyone noticing?
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Mar 11, 2021 22:25
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It's almost like a person can be horrified at the terrible thing they did at out of grief/temp insanity but still be furious enough with someone to gently caress them over horribly. Shades of fuckedupness. Nuances of grief and madness and imperfections. Far more interesting than straight good or evil imho. It would have been more unrealistic if Wanda had shown mercy, given her history, trauma and overwhelming powers. It's far more human to show someone reacting based on grief. Imagine how much trouble we'd be in if simply wishing retribution on anyone that had done you great harm actually worked.
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Mar 11, 2021 23:16
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ClydeFrog posted:It's almost like a person can be horrified at the terrible thing they did at out of grief/temp insanity but still be furious enough with someone to gently caress them over horribly.
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Mar 11, 2021 23:23
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ClydeFrog posted:It's almost like a person can be horrified at the terrible thing they did at out of grief/temp insanity but still be furious enough with someone to gently caress them over horribly.
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Mar 11, 2021 23:27
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Wanda should have handcuffed Agatha and given her a stern talking to and then let the scooby gang take her away in their van to prison
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Mar 11, 2021 23:44
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Collapsing Farts posted:Wanda should have handcuffed Agatha and given her a stern talking to and then let the scooby gang take her away in their van to prison Only after pulling off Agatha's mask to reveal that she was actually (400 year) Old Woman Harkness, who owed the business that Vision worked at doing nothing. And Agatha should glare at Billy and Tommy and tell that she "would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for those meddling imaginary kids."
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Mar 12, 2021 00:08
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socialsecurity posted:Rewriting someone's personality so they will act according to your wishes is a form of enslavement, the fact you keep trying to somehow defend this is sort of creepy. It is but I genuinely didn't think this is what was happening. If their personalities were over-written, the robotic clothes hanging woman wouldn't have minded her role and wouldn't have been crying. I took that as a sign that their original minds were still intact and active inside their head, but their physical bodies were being controlled, like literal puppet strings. Also a form of enslavement, btw. I'm rather interested to know if others didn't see it that way. To me, the intense suffering everyone expressed is itself an indication that they weren't brainwashed. Were the Westview ppl's actions or their minds being controlled? I didn't realize anyone even saw this differently.
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Mar 12, 2021 00:09
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Sarcastro posted:Plus, how evil could Agatha really be if she's been at it for 400 years without anyone noticing? She'd just eat powerful wizards every century or so to keep going. Marquis de Sade, Rasputin, Prince.
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Mar 12, 2021 00:34
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Yeah, the line about taking power from those who don't deserve it made me think she isn't a straight up villain and probably takes power from mostly not good guys over time. So even though selfishly motivated, she ultimately does good.
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Mar 12, 2021 00:38
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