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All votes for Barik will be interpreted as votes for dealing with Ashe and Nerat, because we can't progress the quest without dealing with Ashe.
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Mar 15, 2021 06:06
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 21:37 |
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Barik will need to wait a bit, then, just until we do Verse's quest.
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Mar 15, 2021 06:12
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As interesting as Verse is, waste Ashe and Nerat because those fuckers shouldn't be allowed to breath a second longer than necessary. ...unless it breaks Barik and/or Verse's sidequests. If it does, then do Barik's sidequest first. Question, and just say spoilers if so, but if you piss off Mark repeatedly early on in the game does he just show up and cut-scene murder you or do you get to actually fight him and just end up in a deep poo poo super-boss-equivalent fight if you managed to get on his poo poo list (or Tunon's) fast enough?
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Mar 15, 2021 06:28
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Nyeehg posted:All aboard for Verse's quest.
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Mar 15, 2021 07:00
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I'm somewhat interested in seeing how Barik's quest resolves, but let's go with Verse's quest since she hasn't been nearly as racist.
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Mar 15, 2021 07:02
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As long as we do The Trial before dealing with Ashe or Nerat, Im down to finish Verse's quest.
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Mar 15, 2021 07:24
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Whatever problems were had with the fine detail plotting here, the transition from Act 2 to Act 3 is legitimately fantastic. Loving this poo poo.
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Mar 15, 2021 08:07
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Verse.
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Mar 15, 2021 09:09
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Help Barik. This is point where I really don't understand the people who wanted to play a complete loyalist to Kyros. Leaving aside, you know, the entire point and theme of the game, Obsidian always advertised Tyranny as a Darth Vader simulator. We're a proud, even arrogant sort who nevertheless probably had basically good intentions and were mislead by a corrupt and faulty system lead by a charismatic manipulator into doing evil and enforcing a fascist regime under the misguided belief that such evil and tyranny were necessary to accomplish a greater good. Now Cleo is on the bridge of the second Death Star, lightsaber drawn and thinking about dropping a gremlin sorcerer down an elevator shaft. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Mar 15, 2021 |
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Mar 15, 2021 12:41
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Cythereal posted:Help Barik. My main complaint when I played through the game was that there were points were you were railroaded into blatantly poor choices. We've seen a lot of that already where you're forced into fights against people you could have formed an alliance with; but it shouldn't be a spoiler to say that there's even worse examples of this to come. Essentially the devs don't seem to have considered that someone might want to act like a loyalist for diplomacy's sake even though basically every single character we've met so far is LARP-ing the same thing. Just lie and say that Kyros backs you, what, is Kyros going to contradict you and go "no, my fatebinders are casting edicts all by themselves and have gone completely rogue". The Rebel path has similar issues, where you're basically railroaded into openly declaring rebellion long before you're possibly ready; there's no options to tell the rebels to stop being so openly defiant while you're trying to scheme. Diplomacy is the art of saying "down boy" while you reach for a stick and the devs don't give a lot of opportunities for that. Also, a thought keeps occurring. Can you use edicts to terraform the regions? Like an edict of crop growth or perfect healing or long life or something? Also, since the edict casting system has been revealed, it's a good time to point something out. We've already broken all the edicts, but if we hadn't, we'd notice that it's not possible to cast an edict on top of another edict. Which implies that Kyros can't cast an edict in an area if we have our own edict running already. That might not be relevant now, but might be useful later.
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Mar 15, 2021 14:45
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Help Barik He's trapped in a prison of poo poo, blood, and metal, and if that's not a metaphor for living under Kyros, I don't know what is.
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Mar 15, 2021 15:15
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Do whatever quest needs to be done first in order to not break the games scripts and flags. Gotta say the triggers are looking mighty shakey right now.
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Mar 15, 2021 15:26
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Help Verse. Put the Ashe/Nerat confrontation off like a fine cigar.
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Mar 15, 2021 15:34
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rastilin posted:My main complaint when I played through the game was that there were points were you were railroaded into blatantly poor choices. We've seen a lot of that already where you're forced into fights against people you could have formed an alliance with; but it shouldn't be a spoiler to say that there's even worse examples of this to come. Kyros has enough legal bullshit to presumably nail us for breach of Kyros' Peace/Oldwalls trespassing/possession of forbidden knowledge/etc - that's the entire point of the law. Presumably some of the Chorus blood chanters escaped to tell everyone that Cleo just made her own Edict and at that point it's too far gone for Kyros to do damage control. I do agree with you about the stupid aggressive railroading though. Unfortunately all the Edicts we see in the game are extremely destructive, so we can't bless our lands with cool things to stop Kyros.
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Mar 15, 2021 16:29
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Unfortunately all the Edicts we see in the game are extremely destructive, so we can't bless our lands with cool things to stop Kyros. You could probably make a case for Edicts being an allegory for major technological or social developments. They seemingly come out of nowhere, appear to defy explanation, and are generally ascribed to one specific creator. And while they could in theory be used for good and making positive improvements in everyone's lives, the only use you ever see them put towards is wholesale destruction.
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Mar 15, 2021 16:47
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Unfortunately all the Edicts we see in the game are extremely destructive, so we can't bless our lands with cool things to stop Kyros. There might be points to come where using an Edict is explicitly the best idea, but if we don't want to fall into those same traps, I think it's best to use sparingly.
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Mar 15, 2021 16:52
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Verse>Trial>Ashe>Barik>Nerat
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Mar 15, 2021 17:15
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As we've now seen, the Law no longer applies to Cleo. The Overlord's state requires a monopoly on force, and if Mark or Tunon can't or won't get the job done, she simply has too much personal power to be threatened by any agent it can muster up.
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Mar 15, 2021 17:23
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I'm pretty sure an Edict of Bountiful Harvests would work about as well as the suggestion that we could counteract climate change by setting off a bunch of nukes and let the subsequent nuclear winter cancel it out. It would turn out to blight all the land around it for 30 miles and probably also the crops you get would be poisonous and mobile and carnivorous.
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Mar 15, 2021 18:06
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Kyros has enough legal bullshit to presumably nail us for breach of Kyros' Peace/Oldwalls trespassing/possession of forbidden knowledge/etc - that's the entire point of the law. Presumably some of the Chorus blood chanters escaped to tell everyone that Cleo just made her own Edict and at that point it's too far gone for Kyros to do damage control. I do agree with you about the stupid aggressive railroading though. I don't see what the problem is, this is all excusable under Mage's Folly right?? 
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Mar 15, 2021 19:01
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I am in for some court intrigue first
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Mar 15, 2021 20:51
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My votes for Verse. But also I agree with Donkringel posted:Do whatever quest needs to be done first in order to not break the games scripts and flags. Let's not do anything that breaks the game 
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Mar 15, 2021 21:17
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necroid posted:quite the whiplash after that DLC writing quoting myself because these last few updates have definitely shattered my neck I also assumed that something as big as this edict-blasting open challenge would happen much later in the game so I'm interested to see for how long things will remain civil
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Mar 15, 2021 21:22
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Oh also, I don't really want to drop edicts on Ashe and Nerat because we know the Disfavored keep slaves and the Chorus, well, not everyone innocent in their area is going to be dead, they don't kill kids.
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Mar 15, 2021 21:49
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Kyros has enough legal bullshit to presumably nail us for breach of Kyros' Peace/Oldwalls trespassing/possession of forbidden knowledge/etc - that's the entire point of the law. Presumably some of the Chorus blood chanters escaped to tell everyone that Cleo just made her own Edict and at that point it's too far gone for Kyros to do damage control. I do agree with you about the stupid aggressive railroading though. I think the railroading just comes down to real life time pressure during development. The pace of act 3 is so insanely fast compared to act 2 and it really has the feeling of a looming deadline.
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Mar 15, 2021 22:05
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edict system deffo felt like it was supposed to be part of an actually meaty act 3 and maybe 4 too
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Mar 15, 2021 22:08
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I'm pretty sure an Edict of Bountiful Harvests would work about as well as the suggestion that we could counteract climate change by setting off a bunch of nukes and let the subsequent nuclear winter cancel it out. It would turn out to blight all the land around it for 30 miles and probably also the crops you get would be poisonous and mobile and carnivorous. It's all in the phrasing. For example every edict we've seen so far has an escape clause or an implicit time limit and is incredibly localized, and you can do a lot with that. For example you could boil a chunk of ocean and use winds to push the steam towards a desert area of the Tiers to give them more rain. Likewise you can impart something like Graven Ashe's wound healing to the crops and animals in an area to make them free of disease and resistant to spotty bad weather; if a drought doesn't kill a plant completely, it would recover to its previous state instead of growing stunted. You can perform localized experiments with this to see what happens and roll it out slowly to a larger (but still controlled) area if results are good. Your escape clause can also be something like, "someone claps their hands in this area" or "a stone is thrown" so you can cut the edit short quickly if necessary. I feel there's a lot of untapped potential here.
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Mar 16, 2021 09:25
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rastilin posted:It's all in the phrasing. For example every edict we've seen so far has an escape clause or an implicit time limit and is incredibly localized, and you can do a lot with that. For example you could boil a chunk of ocean and use winds to push the steam towards a desert area of the Tiers to give them more rain. Likewise you can impart something like Graven Ashe's wound healing to the crops and animals in an area to make them free of disease and resistant to spotty bad weather; if a drought doesn't kill a plant completely, it would recover to its previous state instead of growing stunted. One thing to bear in mind is that usually people reading an edict are irreversibly changed by them (and often just straight up die from it); there's a reason why everybody makes a big deal out of Cleopatra having read two of them and still being essentially fine. It creates a sort of "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" situation where like, is it ethical to deliberately sacrifice someone in order to bring prosperity to a larger group of people?
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Mar 16, 2021 19:24
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rastilin posted:It's all in the phrasing. For example every edict we've seen so far has an escape clause or an implicit time limit and is incredibly localized, and you can do a lot with that. For example you could boil a chunk of ocean and use winds to push the steam towards a desert area of the Tiers to give them more rain. Likewise you can impart something like Graven Ashe's wound healing to the crops and animals in an area to make them free of disease and resistant to spotty bad weather; if a drought doesn't kill a plant completely, it would recover to its previous state instead of growing stunted. The game absolutely does not portray Edicts as something that could do a lot of good if only they were used better, they're top-down directives that are insanely destructive because they're used at the whim of one person without a lot of input. Cleopatra's especially do not require someone to read them. There's a reason Eb and Calio realize it's a bad idea to gently caress around with these willy-nilly, they're more like The Great Leap Forward rather than the Civil Rights movement. It's a lot easier to destroy then to come up with something helpful without input from the governed.
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Mar 16, 2021 21:35
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Also I have never clicked the "whoa casting an edict just for shits and giggles seems kinda irresponsible" option; I forgot it was even there. I've only ever picked the option to make my Fatebinder buddy read an edict for me. Guess that's the point where Tyranny corrupted me! Good show, game.
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Mar 16, 2021 21:38
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rastilin posted:It's all in the phrasing. For example every edict we've seen so far has an escape clause or an implicit time limit and is incredibly localized, and you can do a lot with that. For example you could boil a chunk of ocean and use winds to push the steam towards a desert area of the Tiers to give them more rain. Likewise you can impart something like Graven Ashe's wound healing to the crops and animals in an area to make them free of disease and resistant to spotty bad weather; if a drought doesn't kill a plant completely, it would recover to its previous state instead of growing stunted. it's still the magic equivalent of "what if we nuke a hurricane" or "we could try doing X to seed rain clouds over this arid region" where even if the initial goal works, will have unexpected and likely disastrous ramifications. Playing around with Edicts sets off the same alarm in the back of my mind as having a DM say "hey look a magic item that grants a Wish."
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Mar 16, 2021 21:58
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Evil Fluffy posted:it's still the magic equivalent of "what if we nuke a hurricane" or "we could try doing X to seed rain clouds over this arid region" where even if the initial goal works, will have unexpected and likely disastrous ramifications.
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Mar 16, 2021 22:03
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I feel like edicts being the very obvious nuclear weapon metaphor they are, it stands to reason that the magic could be used in a beneficial way, but it would not take the form of an edict; in the same way that you absolutely do not want to put weapons-grade plutonium in a nuclear reactor, because you're trying to create a stable continuous release of energy, not a bomb. The question then really becomes "are the spires the fuel, or are they the bomb?". i.e. is it even possible to repurpose them to something other than a weapon, or are they explicitly built to focus the magical energies of the oldwalls into a weaponized form? If it is the latter, then it stands to reason that the only responsible thing to do would be to destroy them, but much like nuclear weapons in the real world, people don't do that because of the prisoner's dilemma problem of not wanting to be the only side that destroys their nukes and leaving your enemies as the sole commanders of that power.
The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Mar 16, 2021 22:06
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look up operation plowshare lol
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Mar 16, 2021 22:08
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I feel like edicts being the very obvious nuclear weapon metaphor they are, it stands to reason that the magic could be used in a beneficial way, but it would not take the form of an edict; in the same way that you absolutely do not want to put weapons-grade plutonium in a nuclear reactor, because you're trying to create a stable continuous release of energy, not a bomb. The question then really becomes "are the spires the fuel, or are they the bomb?". i.e. is it even possible to repurpose them to something other than a weapon, or are they explicitly built to focus the magical energies of the oldwalls into a weaponized form? If it is the latter, then it stands to reason that the only responsible thing to do would be to destroy them, but much like nuclear weapons in the real world, people don't do that because of the prisoner's dilemma problem of not wanting to be the only side that destroys their nukes and leaving your enemies as the sole commanders of that power. Those are reasonable perspectives, though I admit I don't see the edicts that way. In fact I've always assumed that Kyros is pretty much doing the same thing we are on the other side of the continent, including using Edicts for weather control and other purposes. Getting someone to read them is just how Kyros does force projection over a distance. For example the reason there's a prohibition against naming anything Kyros is because there's an Edict protecting "Kyros" from being harmed, which is why even the Archon of assassination can't kill Kyros. Also I disagree both that it doesn't require additional people's input as well as the nuclear weapon comparison for reasons that I can't go into due to spoilers.
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Mar 17, 2021 13:27
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I also won't mention my opinion about Edicts until TheGreatEvilKing reaches the point where it's relevant, but there's one detail I noticed in that Edicts seem to be doable with conditions for the activation, not only termination. The Edict of Execution from Act I only activates upon fullfilling the condition of "Ascension Hall is not taken by the next Day of Swords". Doesn't that mean that Cleopatra could theoretically use an Edict saying "If the Disfavored and Scarlet Chorus don't die out/leave the Tiers by X day and never return, they all die."? I mean, there's the risk someone would get powers from fullfilling the condition to break the Edict like Cleopatra, but it seems like the most efficient way to solve the problem. Granted, if conditionals worked like that Kyros would have abused that point definitively, but that can be discussed later.
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Mar 17, 2021 13:50
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Suffice it to say that I get the feeling that you can't go detailed contract building with Edicts. Given the sheer power and forces involved, they don't seem to operate on anything more complex than IF/THEN logic.
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Mar 17, 2021 14:19
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Wait could you cast the execution edict or was it only the broken conquest edicts that could be cast?
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Mar 17, 2021 14:28
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Donkringel posted:Wait could you cast the execution edict or was it only the broken conquest edicts that could be cast? Killing everyone in the valley, yourself included, wouldn't be very useful.
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Mar 17, 2021 14:55
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 21:37 |
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wiegieman posted:Killing everyone in the valley, yourself included, wouldn't be very useful. Oh, right, Execution was "kill everyone in the area specified".
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Mar 17, 2021 15:03
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