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gradenko_2000 posted:they're not sending their best! I mean, how could we even tell?
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Mar 16, 2021 08:47
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cowardly that posters here have not been granted amnesty for being vindicated if only because it was extremely funny
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Mar 16, 2021 11:21
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Mar 16, 2021 14:25
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https://twitter.com/KnowS0mething/status/1371540975634501634
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Mar 16, 2021 15:30
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In hindsight the glowing eyes lf meme was probably a mistake. Free larry, also, and those other guys
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Mar 16, 2021 16:20
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  the genocide denial is getting out of hand in cspam i need a mod position on this asap
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Mar 16, 2021 17:16
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comedyblissoption posted:
It's okay he wrote a paper about uyghur genocide in college citing many non zenz/state department sources. We have yet to see any of those citations though for whatever reason. 
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Mar 16, 2021 17:22
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I just lurk this thread but those posters shouldn't have been banned.
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Mar 16, 2021 17:22
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my relations with other individuals is very important to my liberalism
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Mar 16, 2021 17:30
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Enjoy posted:capitalists who care about conforming to grand narratives like this will tend to be outcompeted by capitalists who care more about maximising profits yes, and capitalists who care about maximizing profits will rationalize the production process and draw more and more people into the urban proletariat, as has happened throughout history, often by force this is what's happening across china's peripheral reasons, not just xinjiang. follow the money! no one in china profits from incarcerating and punishing random ethnic groups. however, capitalists in china DO profit as the labor pool widens and deepens. they don't want dead or imprisoned uyghurs (or mongolians or hui or whatever), they want mandarin-speaking and technically-trained ones willing to move around the country as economic needs dictate
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Mar 16, 2021 18:24
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:my relations with other individuals is very important to my liberalism i like to think karl marx would think im cool
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Mar 16, 2021 18:29
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Ferrinus posted:this is what's happening across china's peripheral reasons, not just xinjiang. follow the money! no one in china profits from incarcerating and punishing random ethnic groups. what about the people who build/staff the vocational schools
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Mar 16, 2021 18:31
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i would've been friends with stalin
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Mar 16, 2021 18:32
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:i would've been friends with stalin a wise decision
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Mar 16, 2021 18:38
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the new mod line seems to be that America’s concentration camps are not actually concentration camps “because of the implication”. I look forward to them also applying this rule to the PRC as well any minute now
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Mar 16, 2021 19:13
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indigi posted:what about the people who build/staff the vocational schools those are not actually the same as people who build/staff american-style oubliettes. the extent to which it's private rather than state capital that's underwriting the boarding schools is actually an interesting question, but those guys are tasked with manufacturing laborers, not with enacting social abjection in the cheapest and least visible way possible
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Mar 16, 2021 19:17
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Raskolnikov38 posted:the new mod line seems to be that America’s concentration camps are not actually concentration camps “because of the implication”. I look forward to them also applying this rule to the PRC as well
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Mar 16, 2021 19:34
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Raskolnikov38 posted:the new mod line seems to be that America’s concentration camps are not actually concentration camps “because of the implication”. I look forward to them also applying this rule to the PRC as well This seems to be the case and it is concerning.
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Mar 16, 2021 20:01
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AnimeIsTrash posted:It's okay he wrote a paper about uyghur genocide in college citing many non zenz/state department sources. We have yet to see any of those citations though for whatever reason. Sorry, did you thoroughly peruse the wiki link one of the mods posted earlier in this thread? Read some wiki-theory, comrade.
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Mar 16, 2021 20:08
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People mention mods being pedos and a mod will post pedophila apologia, people mention mods following US state department propaganda and IKs will ban calling concentration camps as such now that their faviourite rapist is president. Simply amazing.
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Mar 16, 2021 20:44
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Raskolnikov38 posted:the new mod line seems to be that America’s concentration camps are not actually concentration camps “because of the implication”. I look forward to them also applying this rule to the PRC as well what the gently caress
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Mar 16, 2021 20:46
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Ferrinus posted:yes, and capitalists who care about maximizing profits will rationalize the production process and draw more and more people into the urban proletariat, as has happened throughout history, often by force the goal of the capitalist isn't the urbanisation, that's a byproduct of changes in the mode of production, and it happens over many years, not over the day-to-day processes that shape what capitalists do individually. if the individual capitalist sees an opportunity to reduce labour costs by using prisoners, he will take that opportunity. after the free labour runs out, sure, then capital goods will replace labour, but capitalists don't pass up free money just because some grand narrative says they should Ferrinus posted:this is what's happening across china's peripheral reasons, not just xinjiang. follow the money! no one in china profits from incarcerating and punishing random ethnic groups. however, capitalists in china DO profit as the labor pool widens and deepens. they don't want dead or imprisoned uyghurs (or mongolians or hui or whatever), they want mandarin-speaking and technically-trained ones willing to move around the country as economic needs dictate there are prison-industrial complexes in lots of other capitalist countries, why is china being singled out as special?
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Mar 16, 2021 21:09
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concentration camp denial seems to be a real problem on these forums flavius can i get a ruling
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Mar 16, 2021 21:09
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Enjoy posted:the goal of the capitalist isn't the urbanisation, that's a byproduct of changes in the mode of production, and it happens over many years, not over the day-to-day processes that shape what capitalists do individually. if the individual capitalist sees an opportunity to reduce labour costs by using prisoners, he will take that opportunity. after the free labour runs out, sure, then capital goods will replace labour, but capitalists don't pass up free money just because some grand narrative says they should prison-industrial complexes don't create profits by coercing prisoners into labor, they create profits through upholding white supremacy and calibrating the as-yet-unimprisoned reserve army of labor to a size appropriate to existing demand. prison labor is a way to recoup a small fraction of the cost of imprisoning people in the first place. individual private capitalists can occasionally get sweet deals at a much greater cost to the state, but this alone is nowhere near enough to make the systematic indefinite imprisonment of an entire ethnic group (or sizable fraction thereof) worth the costs, and that's ignoring the fact that the chinese state has much more independent power relative to its capitalists as compared to somewhere like the states
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Mar 16, 2021 21:16
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Ferrinus posted:prison-industrial complexes don't create profits by coercing prisoners into labor, they create profits through upholding white supremacy this is the most anti-marxist thing i've seen in at least 20 minutes
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Mar 16, 2021 21:18
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comedyblissoption posted:concentration camp denial seems to be a real problem on these forums flavius can i get a ruling He should be by as soon as he's off probe for having a shrimp dick
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Mar 16, 2021 21:29
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Enjoy posted:this is the most anti-marxist thing i've seen in at least 20 minutes It's not phrased in the most Marxist way, reducing it to race, but it's closer to a materialist analysis than the reverse. Capitalists are happy to exploit prison labor when they can, but in any industrialized country the basic purpose of prisons is political repression, not exploitation.
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Mar 16, 2021 22:11
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Enjoy posted:this is the most anti-marxist thing i've seen in at least 20 minutes Private prisons are a minuscule proportion of prisons and the entire industry doesn't even bring in as much revenue as EA does.
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Mar 16, 2021 22:13
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Enjoy posted:this is the most anti-marxist thing i've seen in at least 20 minutes well, there's your problem: you don't know anything about marxist theory or history
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Mar 16, 2021 22:18
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Admiral Ray posted:Private prisons are a minuscule proportion of prisons and the entire industry doesn't even bring in as much revenue as EA does. it's not just private prisons. state prisons also contract out prison labour, eg Colorado Correctional Industries that's the model china is accused of running in xinjiang with its cotton industry (Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps)
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Mar 16, 2021 22:26
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I don’t know if this is specifically the case in Xinjiang but repression via prison is making capitalists significant money or they wouldn’t be doing it
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Mar 16, 2021 22:29
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whether it's contracted out or, as in the vast majority of the time, simply used to produce internal government materials, prison labor can at best claw back a small amount of the enormous cost that imprisoning people has in the first place. it's also incredibly unproductive compared to regular wage labor because of additional costs in surveillance and security and constant interruptions to workflow caused by lockdowns, disciplinary incidents, etc
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Mar 16, 2021 22:30
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indigi posted:I don’t know if this is specifically the case in Xinjiang but repression via prison is making capitalists significant money or they wouldn’t be doing it absolutely, but it's not making them money because they're greedily sucking up the surplus value of labor done by prisoners themselves. it's making them money because prison is a terror weapon used to discipline the wider working class, as well as a propaganda tool that squares the circle between equality of formal rights and inequality of material outcomes
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Mar 16, 2021 22:32
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if prison labor were more profitable than “free” labor, why havent capitalists turned the entire world into a prison labor camp or maybe they have........
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Mar 16, 2021 22:32
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Ferrinus posted:as well as a propaganda tool that squares the circle between equality of formal rights and inequality of material outcomes I think I get what you mean here but I’d appreciate if you could elaborate a bit 
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Mar 16, 2021 22:35
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Enjoy posted:it's not just private prisons. state prisons also contract out prison labour, eg Colorado Correctional Industries Colorado Correctional Industries is included in the industry estimation, which is $5.1 billion across the entire nation. Looking up Colorado Correctional Industries' 2018 report, their total revenue was $56 million. EA's revenue was $5.4 billion. edit: if you mean that other industries that use prison labor benefit, it'd take some work to tally that up or find a report on it, but I just wanted to make the point that the prison industry itself is simply not worth very much.
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Mar 16, 2021 22:36
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indigi posted:I think I get what you mean here but I’d appreciate if you could elaborate a bit Anatole France posted:“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”
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Mar 16, 2021 22:37
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A major function of repression in a capitalist society is to depress certain groups to keep labor cheaper. Prison labor is state-subsidized labor. As is the labor of Felons with limited prospects.
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Mar 16, 2021 22:40
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indigi posted:I think I get what you mean here but I’d appreciate if you could elaborate a bit in the first place, prisons (and police, and soldiers) are most easily understood as examples of lenin's "special bodies of armed men" that are the last word and final line of defense of the capitalist state. why do you go to work? because you need money to buy the necessities of life. why can't you just take the necessities of life? because you will be arrested if you try. so there's a cop lurking at the end of basically every way you participate in capitalism, whether by having a job or paying rent or paying taxes. cops are standing threats that protect private property, and prisons along with guns and tasers are weapons they'll use against us as necessary. moreover, capitalism needs people who have no choice but to take lovely jobs, but can't actually give everyone a job. if there were no unemployed you couldn't easily replace burnt-out or rebellious workers, and there wouldn't be a ready-and-waiting mass of labor to get absorbed into new industries as those industries get developed. however, you also don't want the unemployed to reach the critical mass of numbers and deprivation where they've got nothing left to lose and start to threaten capitalism materially. so you need the cops to discipline people who've been systematically deprived and abandoned, and prisons as a kind of heat sink to absorb surplus people when there's nothing more convenient to do with them and just giving them welfare would be some combination of too expensive to you and too empowering to the working class. ruth wilson gilmore writes about this a lot, i like to link people to this interview https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3954-prisons-and-class-warfare-an-interview-with-ruth-wilson-gilmore finally and most philosophically, most people don't ACTUALLY weigh the pros of stealing or breaking a contract against the cons of getting arrested in each and every economic interaction they participate in. for the most part they just go with the flow because the massive inequality and violence done under capitalism seems, if not good, at least natural, even though the liberal ideological basis of capitalism is universal human freedom and equal rights across the board (you and a capitalist are both just traders at the market, swapping commodities of equal value). how is it that the capitalist has a kajillion commodities at hand but the only commodity you have to sell is your own life-force? well, they must be better or more deserving somehow - "smarter", "hard-working", "white". conversely the people who suffer poverty and police violence must be inherently bad, and have it coming. it's actually perfectly legitimate for us to leave some people to starve and lock swathes of others in cages because they've revealed themselves to be psychologically or morally inferior and are, in the final estimation, deficient in the very humanity that's the basis of the rights of decent, law-abiding folk like you and me Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Mar 16, 2021 22:47
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Ferrinus posted:i like to link people to this interview https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3954-prisons-and-class-warfare-an-interview-with-ruth-wilson-gilmore thanks that makes a lot of sense. I'll check out that interview too
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Mar 16, 2021 22:52
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