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You’re interested in helping people. There are much better ways to help people than being a lawyer. Being a lawyer is often contrary toward your goal.
Mr. Nice! fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Mar 16, 2021 14:42
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If you don't have the grades for a top tier law school being a paralegal is a really smart play especially if you have a second language. A dual language paralegal can often end up better paid with lower stress and much lower bills vs. Law school student loan debt. That same friend I mentioned above, who was doing legal aid and donating plasma to make his bill payments? He went into the army *as a paralegal*. It meant he got better loan forgiveness than if he'd gone in as JAG. He did the math and he was paid significantly better, net, as a paralegal, once loan forgiveness was counted in.
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Mar 16, 2021 14:46
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Declan MacManus posted:i mean i’m also trying to go to law school because i’m specifically interested in a career in law Then definitely opt for being a paralegal. Much cheaper, takes less education time, and much less stressful. Also much higher chance you’ll get hired for the job you just got an education for. With 3-5 years experience, recruiters will be calling you and you can pick where you want to work for the most part. Depending on the organization, experienced paralegals can have a significant degree of autonomy.
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Mar 16, 2021 14:48
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And if you still want to go to law school after working for a bit as a paralegal you can do that. I know several attorneys who started as paralegals. One of them, the senior partner at the firm she worked for liked her so much she paid for her law school.
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Mar 16, 2021 14:55
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Declan MacManus posted:i mean i’m also trying to go to law school because i’m specifically interested in a career in law Why? What do you think a career in law is? I'm sincerely asking. It's also why I think the best advice anyone here ever gives is "go volunteer or work at a firm for a few months and figure out if it's really what you want". I mean, besides "don't be a lawyer".
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Mar 16, 2021 15:04
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That or you can do part time law school WHILE you work as a paralegal getting paid and it will reduce your opportunity cost. My biggest regret before going to law school is not spending years (yes, YEARS) working in or around law before going. I’d have like $50k more in my retirement account and almost $100k I hadn’t spent repaying loans.
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Mar 16, 2021 15:05
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Declan MacManus posted:i mean i’m also trying to go to law school because i’m specifically interested in a career in law You will not be "helping people" by getting a career in law. You mentioned in your original post that you watched many of your co-workers getting screwed by the system, and didn't mention that you saw any lawyers helping them - wonder why that is? There is an overabundance of attorneys in America at the moment, the market is saturated, its difficult to find work, especially for recent graduates (its gotten better in the past decade, but its still pretty rough out there). If there are so many attorneys out there, and yet none of them are helping these people, you have to stop and consider why not. Its certainly not due to a dearth of bright-eyed, social justice-minded idealists who went to law school to "help people." They are a dime a dozen and there are tens of thousands of them out there who started off thinking the same things you do now. Where did they go? Sure, you're going to "help" your clients but that means "hurting" whoever they're up against. In civil Court, you're "helping" your clients take money and property from other people, often times people who may not "deserve it" within your conception of fairness. In criminal law, and the like, you don't get to pick the "innocent" or the "blameless" clients. Your brain probably just told you to rebut, "I want to help people getting benefits and defending their rights, and fight against the Government and The System!" If thats what you really want to do, becoming a paralegal for an immigration charity, a legal aid organization, or a worker's comp firm will let you do exactly that, will cost less to get started, start paying you more and sooner, and operate as a launchpad into a full-blown legal career. It will also give you transferrable skills, and an entry-point to the type of law you may end up wanting to do. I'm not trying to be a dick, its just that there are certain notions that most aspiring lawyers wind up getting disabused of in short order, and I'm passing you notes under the desk about what those are. blarzgh fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Mar 16, 2021 16:10
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blarzgh posted:You will not be "helping people" by getting a career in law. You mentioned in your original post that you watched many of your co-workers getting screwed by the system, and didn't mention that you saw any lawyers helping them - wonder why that is? There is an overabundance of attorneys in America at the moment, the market is saturated, its difficult to find work, especially for recent graduates (its gotten better in the past decade, but its still pretty rough out there). Bolded should be on the front page. I've never heard it put this way but it's so so accurate. You're pretty good at arguing, you should go to law school.
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Mar 16, 2021 16:14
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Pook Good Mook posted:You're pretty good at arguing, you should go to law school. Well, I DO LOVE TO ARGU gently caress please let me see my family
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Mar 16, 2021 16:40
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I posted in one of these threads years ago about going to law school. People yelled at me. I took the LSAT and did fairly well, but not so well as to get full rides. I didn't go to law school. Now I somehow work a government job where I get to do fulfilling work. As a bonus, I get to argue with lawyers regularly! Their mere presence and auras are stressful. At no point have I wished I could be the person on the other line. (Some, I assume, are good people.) In conclusion, this thread is a land of contrasts, and I'm still glad I didn't go to law school.
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Mar 16, 2021 16:57
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The idea of helping people with the law just misapprehends what the law is and what its for. People have this vague idea of, well, there's people without power or resources, and I'm going to help them. How? By appealing to what is right. Sorry, who do you think the judge is, and who do you think drafted and interpreted the laws you'll be applying?
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Mar 16, 2021 17:03
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Yup. Even in the most benevolent of legal occupations you spend way more time than any sane person would be happy with explaining to your desperate clients why the law exists precisely to gently caress them.
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Mar 16, 2021 17:04
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For real, half the time "helping the little guy" is just helping them organize and keep better records. If I'm between hearings without enough time to start something or go back to my desk I love to sit in on Magistrate Court. The amount of tenants who argue their landlord is a lazy poo poo who never fixes anything is astounding. But they constantly lose because they never think to document and organize things. It's crazy how much single e-mail from months ago showing you complained about something would change the outcome. Don't get me wrong, there are actual power and wealth imbalances that affect outcomes, especially with employers or products liability. But small-scale, day-to-day conflicts often just come down to keeping good records.
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Mar 16, 2021 17:15
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Yes. Organizing, fund raising, building capacity and power is way more likely to help someone than taking their case. But all that poo poo is time consuming, hard, and feels very small bore. There are instances where you can "help" people in the law, but usually its like - you get them a multimillion dollar settlement for the doctor loving up pulling their kid out and causing a lifelong disability, and then you take 30%. Or you find some constitutional violation and get some evidence excluded. But they've spent a bunch of time in custody already and definitely did it. and that's like, best case scenario. If you figure you're kicking your feet up at the end of the day and feeling great about that, well, sure
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Mar 16, 2021 17:20
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blarzgh posted:Sure, you're going to "help" your clients but that means "hurting" whoever they're up against. In civil Court, you're "helping" your clients take money and property from other people, often times people who may not "deserve it" within your conception of fairness. If lawyers genuinely thought of themselves as independent professionals like doctors, therapists, or engineers, then they would spend just as much time with their client advocating against bad choices or decisions as they do advocating on behalf of their client in court. I believe that's what most laypeople expect from our profession, whether they realize or admit it. That's why they get so mad at lawyers representing a person they don't like, or why they think a lawyer zealously representing a guilty criminal defendant is a bad person. I think that laypeople, and even many young lawyers, believe that a lawyer can and should refuse to work for a client who is lying or doing something amoral. After all, doctors and therapists don't have to continue to serve people who refuse treatment (provided the patient is competent to choose), and engineers will often refuse to put their PE seal on a design they think is flawed. I don't think that lawyers see themselves the same way. Competition among lawyers is too fierce and compensation too poor for the average attorney to feel free to exercise that type of discretion or professional judgment.
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Mar 16, 2021 17:35
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TheWordOfTheDayIs posted:If lawyers genuinely thought of themselves as independent professionals like doctors, therapists, or engineers, then they would spend just as much time with their client advocating against bad choices or decisions as they do advocating on behalf of their client in court. I believe that's what most laypeople expect from our profession, whether they realize or admit it. That's why they get so mad at lawyers representing a person they don't like, or why they think a lawyer zealously representing a guilty criminal defendant is a bad person. The only circumstance I know where this actually happens is very small defense firms working on non-white collar things. Anecdotal, but when certain defense attorneys make an appearance it's a good bet that the Defendant shopped around, was adamant they wanted to go to trial, and were told by the local bar that they were doomed and they could not advocate going to trial. Certain attorneys I just assume that I'm preparing the case for trial because they'll take anything or don't give a poo poo about losing. So indirectly, they still prove your point, but they exist in an ecosystem where "better attorneys" have already been approached and passed/told the client what they didn't want to hear.
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Mar 16, 2021 17:41
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blarzgh posted:
The first day of my first year of law school, during the introductory sessions, one of the professors did the standard "why did you come to law school" question, wrote them up on the board, at "help people" almost everyone raised their hands (I didn't; I went to law school because I was out of ideas on what to do with an undergrad English lit major when I didn't want to go into academia). At the end of the first year a visiting speaker asked the same question. At the same "help people" line, one person in my whole section raised their hand. Everyone else audibly snickered. SlothBear posted:Yup. Even in the most benevolent of legal occupations you spend way more time than any sane person would be happy with explaining to your desperate clients why the law exists precisely to gently caress them. Usually while they're screaming at you as if it's your fault. "Look, dude, you're right. You are getting hosed, and it's not fair. But I need you to listen to me. Right now, you're on a train track. You can try standing on the track and yelling at me and at the train and see how that works, or you can listen and I can try to help you ride the train out of this building" [this building being the jail] Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Mar 16, 2021 17:48
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TheWordOfTheDayIs posted:If lawyers genuinely thought of themselves as independent professionals like doctors, therapists, or engineers, then they would spend just as much time with their client advocating against bad choices or decisions as they do advocating on behalf of their client in court. I believe that's what most laypeople expect from our profession, whether they realize or admit it. That's why they get so mad at lawyers representing a person they don't like, or why they think a lawyer zealously representing a guilty criminal defendant is a bad person. I mean, we do do those things. There are ethical limitations on when an attorney can refuse representation -- my clients are assigned, not chosen, and I can only refuse when there's an ethical conflict and not always even then -- but a *lot* of my work with clients is of the "ok, you're where you are now, can't change that, but here's what I suggest so that your situation stops getting worse" variety. Back when I was doing civil rights stuff I was in a courtroom maybe once every six months and the rest of the time was general advice giving and question answering of the "no, don't do that, here's a better idea" variety. Even when I was in the courtroom it was usually just to get a stay to stop things from actively getting worse legally while we worked out a practical solution. The pay was poo poo, but it was useful and good work and very much utilized my legal training. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're talking about, but most legal work with clients isn't in courtrooms. Most of it by far is over conference tables and telephone calls. Are you talking about white collar / corporate biglaw type stuff I guess? Pook Good Mook posted:The only circumstance I know where this actually happens is very small defense firms working on non-white collar things. Maybe this is a regional variation thing. Small firms doing non-white-collar things is most of my state's bar. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Mar 16, 2021 17:58
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TheWordOfTheDayIs posted:If lawyers genuinely thought of themselves as independent professionals like doctors, therapists, or engineers, then they would spend just as much time with their client advocating against bad choices or decisions as they do advocating on behalf of their client in court. I believe that's what most laypeople expect from our profession, whether they realize or admit it. That's why they get so mad at lawyers representing a person they don't like, or why they think a lawyer zealously representing a guilty criminal defendant is a bad person. this is like 90% of what lawyers do, lawyers spend very little time in court it's just that all of that is cloaked behind the attorney-client privilege so when it gets litigated the fact their lawyers told them over and over again to not be idiots isn't used against them
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Mar 16, 2021 18:44
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evilweasel posted:this is like 90% of what lawyers do, lawyers spend very little time in court Uh exactly. I don't understand that post. Attorneys are independent professionals who meet, email and phone call their clients to scream at them about unfucking themselves, then occasionally zealously argue their case in court often in direct contradiction to their advice to the client. E: 0.16 (billable) written orientation on legal operation, procedure Nice piece of fish fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Mar 16, 2021 18:56
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Yeah, we all do that poo poo and then groan internally as it gets ignored. Problem is most of our clients aren't our clients until they needed to hear all that five years ago.
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Mar 16, 2021 18:57
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Good lawyers make good deals. lovely lawyers go straight to Court.
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Mar 16, 2021 19:35
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I love when I walk into a room of non-lawyer clients, especially lower level employees, and their backs go rigid, they look down at their hands, and the air in the room immediately gets five degrees colder, just because of me. That is the power that I wield as a lawyer—the power to make laypeople extraordinarily uncomfortable and anxious just by announcing what I do for a living. Yeah you better use exactly the right words round me, otherwise I will correct your rear end. Hahahaha
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Mar 16, 2021 19:36
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Question for law goons with high-value clients, maybe at Biglaw. Do you ever have "I told you so" conversations with clients? Is there any point? Are you just dancing with them firing you at that point? I can see it being a silver lining to at least be able to say, "Hey, that thing I told you was gonna happen and land you in poo poo? That's why you're knee-deep in poo poo." If it's a big institutional client do you commiserate with in-house and both have a "These loving people" conversation? When I was a PD I didn't usually throw it out to repeat clients because it was almost never constructive. The exception was stuff like No-Contact violations where they'd get indignant that they were gonna spend more time in jail for the violation than they risked for the crime. "No, you can't bond out, I told you it was a mandatory minimum of 7 when I told you to just stay away." Phil Moscowitz posted:I love when I walk into a room of non-lawyer clients, especially lower level employees, and their backs go rigid, they look down at their hands, and the air in the room immediately gets five degrees colder, just because of me. That is the power that I wield as a lawyer—the power to make laypeople extraordinarily uncomfortable and anxious just by announcing what I do for a living. Yeah you better use exactly the right words round me, otherwise I will correct your rear end. Hahahaha Try moving and telling your new neighbors you're a prosecutor.
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Mar 16, 2021 19:37
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People older than me call me “sir” and are nervous as poo poo, certain they hosed up in some way they can’t even think of. The lawyer is here...oh no. Will I lose my job? Maybe bitch, that’s why you have to be completely honest with me. I have to advise you that my duty is to the corporation and this conversation is not protected by attorney-client privilege, so make sure you tell me everything you know. The quicker you give me what I’m looking for, the quicker this will all be over.
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Mar 16, 2021 19:41
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Phil Moscowitz posted:I love when I walk into a room of non-lawyer clients, especially lower level employees, and their backs go rigid, they look down at their hands, and the air in the room immediately gets five degrees colder, just because of me. That is the power that I wield as a lawyer—the power to make laypeople extraordinarily uncomfortable and anxious just by announcing what I do for a living. This is incredibly annoying for in-house lawyers interacting with non-lawyer clients, especially lower level employees, day in and day out when you just need like one piece of information for a task that has zero to do with the employee.
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Mar 16, 2021 19:44
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ulmont posted:This is incredibly annoying for in-house lawyers interacting with non-lawyer clients, especially lower level employees, day in and day out when you just need like one piece of information for a task that has zero to do with the employee. I've had this happen where the employee doesn't understand I am their in-house legal. They get so freaked out they think they're not allowed to tell me what I'm asking for.
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Mar 16, 2021 20:02
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evilweasel posted:this is like 90% of what lawyers do, lawyers spend very little time in court Clarification: All of that time spent doing bullshit discovery is included in what I consider "in court."
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Mar 16, 2021 20:14
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When I go to a doctor and fill out the sheet and it says, "Profession: __________________" I put, "attorney (but not that kind) and 100% of the time the nurse who takes me back later on gives a tenuous chuckle and says, "I saw your intake, haha so what kind of lawyer are you?" and I say, "I do commercial contract and real estate law, the most boring thing you can imagine." and they visibly relax.
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Mar 16, 2021 20:27
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My mother is has been an orthopedic nurse for like 40 years I'm not actually allowed to sue doctors, lol.
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Mar 16, 2021 20:28
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I’m so jealous of my wife being able to put professor instead of lawyer on that poo poo
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Mar 16, 2021 20:29
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GrandmaParty posted:Good lawyers make good deals. lovely lawyers go straight to Court. "Any time I step into a courtroom, someone has made a horrible mistake. My job is to make sure it wasn't me"
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Mar 16, 2021 20:31
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Pook Good Mook posted:Question for law goons with high-value clients, maybe at Biglaw.
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Mar 16, 2021 20:54
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I'm in family law. No one ever loving listens to me. Instead, you pivot to "Here's how we fix it."
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Mar 16, 2021 20:58
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Pook Good Mook posted:
I typically tell people I'm a lawyer and if they press I say I work for the government. Which is true. People just get really weird if you say you're a prosecutor and I do not want to have a discussion about whatever random criminal case is in the news.
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Mar 16, 2021 21:02
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Gleri posted:I typically tell people I'm a lawyer and if they press I say I work for the government. Which is true. People just get really weird if you say you're a prosecutor and I do not want to have a discussion about whatever random criminal case is in the news. I tell people I shovel poo poo, push paper, or people screw things up and bring them to me to fix. Nothing good comes from me telling people what i do.
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Mar 16, 2021 21:18
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Pook Good Mook posted:Question for law goons with high-value clients, maybe at Biglaw. there is rarely ever a reason to have an "i told you so" conversation with anyone, people find it an annoying behavior for a reason even when them being annoyed at you doesn't mean you make less money. it might come up if they are trying to ignore advice again as a "here's why you listen to me" but that's about trying to stop the next stupid thing not whack knuckles for the previous one
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Mar 16, 2021 21:33
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TheWordOfTheDayIs posted:If lawyers genuinely thought of themselves as independent professionals like doctors, therapists, or engineers, then they would spend just as much time with their client advocating against bad choices or decisions as they do advocating on behalf of their client in court. I believe that's what most laypeople expect from our profession, whether they realize or admit it. That's why they get so mad at lawyers representing a person they don't like, or why they think a lawyer zealously representing a guilty criminal defendant is a bad person. This is quite literally 80% of my day and then I get to go to court to unfuck it. In simpler terms: GrandmaParty posted:I'm in family law. No one ever loving listens to me. and Hieronymous Alloy posted:"Any time I step into a courtroom, someone has made a horrible mistake. My job is to make sure it wasn't me"
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Mar 16, 2021 23:16
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evilweasel posted:there is rarely ever a reason to have an "i told you so" conversation with anyone, people find it an annoying behavior for a reason even when them being annoyed at you doesn't mean you make less money. The second is what I envisioned. Like if some big client comes to you and is like, "WTF?! Fix it!" and you basically tell them this is their fault and maybe they'll listen to you this time.
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Mar 16, 2021 23:17
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My job is literally helping victims of domestic violence. Half the time I am explaining how the law is going to gently caress them or why their abuser isn't getting held to account. The rest of the time I am getting them orders that a chunk of the time the abuser is just going to ignore and won't get enforced by the police/court. Sometimes I get clean victories but they are few and loving far between. Usually I am mitigating the damage. If you want to help people the law ain't it. Eminent Domain fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Mar 16, 2021 |
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Mar 16, 2021 23:19
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