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PMush Perfect posted:"Kanji is bisexual and doesn't know that's even a thing that exists" solves so many problems with the debates about his sexuality, especially RE: Naoto's gender. I think that should probably just be the thread title considering the number of times it comes up.
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Mar 17, 2021 15:20
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Mar 17, 2021 15:22
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You know what's wild, Kanji and Futaba are the same age in their respective games.
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Mar 17, 2021 15:28
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I feel like kanji has to be at least bi for the shadows to make sense, and the game screwed up its internal logic by trying to deny that I mean the whole thing with the shadows in the first few dungeons seemed to be that they represented a genuine part of the person that they were suppressing or not aware of - their real but socially or psychologically unacceptable impulses and feelings. The person then grows by embracing those parts of themselves. but it seems like the game treats kanji’s shadow differently. Taking kanji’s shadow and dungeon at face value, there is a part of him that really wants to be with men. Instead, the game denies that kanji actually felt that way and treats the shadow as a false manifestation of his anxiety and insecurity.
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Mar 17, 2021 15:55
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I didn’t dislike Yumi, but I certainly didn’t like her enough to not leave her hanging in that awkward scene. I thought it was funny that she is basically the only character left out of P4A.Lord_Magmar posted:You know what's wild, Kanji and Futaba are the same age in their respective games. Kanji and Ayane are the same age in the same game. The game actually comments on it via classmate gossip, though it uses Rise as a reference instead of Kanji.
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Mar 17, 2021 16:02
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Best Bi Geek Squid posted:I feel like kanji has to be at least bi for the shadows to make sense, and the game screwed up its internal logic by trying to deny that Right this is my feeling. It seems like Kanji was originally written to be Gay. Everything about his shadow, the dungeon, ect seems to be about a man who is confused about his sexuality and lashes out as a result. Which would have been a big loving deal for videos games in 2008, especially for a Japanese game studio. In the end though, I feel like Atlus for whatever reason decided against this and re-wrote Kanji. I mean think about how much of a big deal this would have been if you had a Gay playable character in 2008? Not even Bioware had the balls to have a Gay romance option until Mass Effect 3 and a lot of fan pressure.
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Mar 17, 2021 16:04
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IShallRiseAgain posted:Kanji's sexuality is irrelevant to his arc, and explicitly spelling out his sexuality would ruin the message of his arc. The entire point of his arc is that he can be into "girly" things without that defining his entire identity. 
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Mar 17, 2021 16:06
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Solaris 2.0 posted:
Didn't one of the PS2 Shadow Hearts games have a gay playable character? Or maybe it was an NPC and I'm confusing things.
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Mar 17, 2021 16:08
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I don't know if I agree that the game breaks its internal logic with Kanji's Shadow. Characters' Shadows are real, genuine feelings they have, but they aren't the whole truth, and they are also always exaggerated. Kanji's Shadow is a genuine part of him, reflected through his internalized homophobia and wildly exaggerated like all of the Shadows are. I also don't agree that Kanji's sexuality is irrelevant. Yes, part of his story is that he can be into "girly" things without that necessarily meaning he's gay, or anything like that. But the story also makes a point to discuss sexuality around Kanji, both during his dungeon arc and after it. The game never delivers a definitive answer, but it's not something that's just a complete non-issue in the game, either. Something that comes up with Kanji is that he's uncomfortable with sexuality in general, and not just his own--he gets the most flustered of anyone when it comes to sexual humor or situations. That might also be part of why his Shadow manifests how it does.
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Mar 17, 2021 16:11
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I'm fine with 'Kanji is an awkward teenager and so he's probably gonna stumble a lot while figuring out his sexuality, which could be anything on the spectrum and it would be fine because he's a good kid'.
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Mar 17, 2021 16:35
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I mean, we know at least he's attracted to Naoto (regardless of what gender Naoto happens to be presenting as).
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Mar 17, 2021 16:38
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It's actually just true that the game spelling out Kanji's sexuality would weaken his arc because then everyone who mocked him gets vindicated on some level. At that point, liking cute things was the result of his sexuality, and that's a weird message to send. You can argue whether that matters enough to bother not doing it, but it would have an effect.
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Mar 17, 2021 16:44
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I love persona games I hate demon pokemon Does this mean I'm actually a high school vn fan?  I'll also never finish a persona game so this means I should probably buy p5 royal after getting half way though p5 and stopping right?
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Mar 17, 2021 17:14
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Right this is my feeling. It seems like Kanji was originally written to be Gay. Everything about his shadow, the dungeon, ect seems to be about a man who is confused about his sexuality and lashes out as a result. Which would have been a big loving deal for videos games in 2008, especially for a Japanese game studio. Persona 2 already let you have a gay romance so I don't think that they walked anything back tbh.
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Mar 17, 2021 17:21
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Persona 2 already let you have a gay romance so I don't think that they walked anything back tbh.
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Mar 17, 2021 17:32
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That has nothing to do with my point. I don't think they wrote him as gay and then Atlus had them rewrite it or whatever.
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Mar 17, 2021 17:35
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victrix posted:I love persona games P5R improves on everything that P5 did so if there was something that made you stop playing P5, perhaps it was resolved in P5R? If anything it's worth it to play through so you can then immediately play Strikers which I heard is good (haven't played yet!) Just be sure to get to the bonus content, it provides a very good ending and closure to the game. *edit* Also I feel like this Kanji discussion is getting heated (heh). I mean at the end of the day he's a 15 year old high school student. Realistically, he would probably be as confused about himself as we are of his character. So whatever I'm fine with it. I just think it's a missed opportunity to have had an out-an-out playable Gay character in 2008. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Mar 17, 2021 |
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Mar 17, 2021 17:36
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I do think it was a missed opportunity, but i would have not been terribly pleased if they kept all the other aspects since as someone said upthread the message becomes even more problematic if "am I gay for liking sewing" is answered with "yes". But with some tweaks it would have been fine.
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Mar 17, 2021 17:43
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Kanji's brand of sexuality revolves entirely around Naoto.Lord_Magmar posted:You know what's wild, Kanji and Futaba are the same age in their respective games. The in-game models obfuscate this but Kanji is like a foot and a half taller than everyone else in the anime cutscenes and it fucks me up every time I see it.
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Mar 17, 2021 18:07
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Lord_Magmar posted:You know what's wild, Kanji and Futaba are the same age in their respective games. Isn't Rise the same age too? Or did she take time off school to do Idol things, so she's older but still in Kanji's class? I still secretly hope that Kanji and Rise are super besties and hang out and talk about girly things. 
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Mar 17, 2021 18:57
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Yeah, Rise and Kanji are the same age. I think Naoto is, too? I don't remember if she's a first-year or second-year.
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Mar 17, 2021 18:59
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Funky Valentine posted:The in-game models obfuscate this but Kanji is like a foot and a half taller than everyone else in the anime cutscenes and it fucks me up every time I see it. I've been rewatching the P4A anime and he feels like he's twice the size of Naoto in some shots. Kid's huge.
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Mar 17, 2021 19:01
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Yeah Naoto was a first year
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Mar 17, 2021 19:02
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oh my god the next person to type 'ESPECIALLY FOR JAPAN' or 'cultural differences' is going to get every single marvel vs capcom level 3 hyper combo done to them simultaneously im begging you to understand there were relatively popular and prominent (at least as popular as persona 3 was when persona 4 started development, which is to say somewhat popular within its niche) japanese games with explicit gay content in the late 90s and early 2000s. even if kanji had been explicitly gay, a romance option for the protag, and the greatest and most well-written gay character ever depicted in fiction, he would not have been a bold new step. somewhat unique and worth commenting on, yes, but not 'can you imagine how much of a big deal this would be? EVEN BIOWARE...' like im not trying to poo poo on people for not knowing about these things because they werent as big in the us (a lot of them didnt get translated and some of them had this stuff scrubbed in localization) but the tone people take is exhausting and diminishing. persona 4 was not taking bold steps that they backed away from for fear of being burnt. or rather, if that is what happened, it isn't remotely understandable unless they were very concerned about the us. (because again, a lot of the times gay content in japanese games led to it not getting localized, or was removed in translation - and this is true even today.) im not saying japan was or is some bold land of LGBT rights, but it is true that, especially in the early 2000s, niche games could get away with way more than games in the west could, and were generally taking bolder steps in regards to this stuff, or just being more normal about it. this is because gay/lesbian fiction was already an established part of jp nerd culture in the 80s and 90s, and obviously the persona thread isn't the best avenue for exploring the history and nuances of bl or yuri, but you can easily see why that already existing would lead to some JRPGs just tossing it in without any real comment. Endorph fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Mar 17, 2021 |
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Mar 17, 2021 19:04
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It feels like oversimplifying to point the finger at one person in regards to the Persona series and gay/transgender characters, but, well, let's just say Katsura Hashino has a bit of a pattern going in his games (see also: Catherine) and I'm interested to see where Persona goes now that he's moved on. Even in regards to other aspects of the story, I'm excited to see where other directors take the series. For example, Royal's new content was directed by someone else and is a much more interesting story to end the game with than the original's finale. Endorph posted:(because again, a lot of the times gay content in japanese games led to it not getting localized, or was removed in translation - and this is true even today.) Fire Emblem 
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Mar 17, 2021 19:12
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Harrow posted:Fire Emblem anyway hashino is an rear end but atlus also just seems like a fairly conservative company. the persona 2 writer didnt throw the first brick at stone wall but it sure feels like there's a reason he left and everything he made after hes left has just been persona but trying to cover actual social issues. like caligula effect has looots of issues but theres points where it basically feels like a (fairly pointed) parody of modern persona. that said, pretty much everything persona-related that hashino wasnt involved in (the new content in persona 3 portable, the new content in royal) has been more interesting to me than most of modern persona, so I'm curious what Persona 6 will look like too.
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Mar 17, 2021 19:16
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Endorph posted:oh my god the next person to type 'ESPECIALLY FOR JAPAN' or 'cultural differences' is going to get every single marvel vs capcom level 3 hyper combo done to them simultaneously I feel like this was directed at my post so I will try to clarify. While I understand all of this, the Persona series wasn't some niche thing especially by the time Persona 4 came about, my comment was directed at big name games not niche games. I only used Bioware as a famous example most people would be familiar with. My comment, which is clearly being taken away further than it was meant to, was simply a reflection that by and large, Japan's social views on LGBTQ subjects is more conservative than contemporary western views. Otherwise, I agree completely with what you said. I just wanted to clarify my post so people don't think I'm making some comment that Japan isn't capable or hasn't had games or media with explicit LGTBQ content previously. In any case I am actually only 25 hours into Persona 4 so I got a long way and a lot of character development to go!
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Mar 17, 2021 19:34
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Solaris 2.0 posted:My comment, which is clearly being taken away further than it was meant to, was simply a reflection that by and large, Japan's social views on LGBTQ subjects is more conservative than contemporary western views. Again, my point isn't 'Japan is actually a haven of LGBT rights', it sucks and has issues in a lot of ways both in terms of average person's opinion, the law, how people react, etc. But the 'west' also has those issues, just in different ways. Just because gay marriage became legal in the US in the past decade does not at all mean we're lightyears ahead of Japan. And again, speaking specifically in terms of 'nerd pop culture,' Japan's arc on that stuff is way different, and in some ways way better than the US's. Partly because Japanese media just had more avenues for tiny independent projects to reach audiences, but still, or for niche audiences to be targeted and able to support things they wanted, but still. like this is a cheap shot but the biggest western franchise in the past 20 years is harry potter.
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Mar 17, 2021 19:44
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I think we can just all just agree to asexually and aromatically knit each other a bunch of persona dolls
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Mar 17, 2021 19:55
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Endorph posted:This isn't really true, is the thing. Japan's social views are much more complex than this, there's some that are worse and some that are better, and, especially in 2008, when gay marriage wasn't even legal in the US, there isn't at all a strict better/worse. Yea I can agree with all of this and I'll concede to your argument since I am admittedly pretty ignorant on what goes on in the Japanese indie scene. In any case, I also agree about Persona 6 and what Altus does with it now that Hashino is gone. Also I hope it is developed with the PS5 in mind and not merely ported. If you think about it, the last two Persona games were made at the tail end of the previous console generation and then ported to the next system. Persona 4 was a PS2 game that later got a Vita/PC release Persona 5 was developed for PS3 and then released on both platforms. I'm hoping Persona 6 is developed first and foremost with PS5 in mind, and not a PS4/PS5 release.
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Mar 17, 2021 20:05
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frankly im curious what the turnaround time on p6 will be. hopefully not as long as it was between p4 and p5.
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Mar 17, 2021 20:06
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This is hopefully going to be an interesting year for Persona, and maybe we'll see a Persona 6 announcement (though I say "maybe" because, well, I don't want to get my hopes up). It's the 25th anniversary year for the series and Atlus has stated they have some announcements to make this year. Unless it's all remakes, ports, and spin-offs--certainly not out of the question--it's possible we'll at least get a teaser for Persona 6. As far as PS5 exclusivity, I'd guess if Persona 6 happens this year (probably not) or next, it'll be a PS4/PS5 cross-gen game. Any later than that and it might be developed specifically for PS5. The reason Persona 5 was both for PS3 and PS4 is just that it got delayed a lot. It was originally announced with a 2014 release date, after all.
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Mar 17, 2021 20:10
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Persona 6 will be the last game released for the PS5.
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Mar 17, 2021 20:19
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Harrow posted:This is hopefully going to be an interesting year for Persona, and maybe we'll see a Persona 6 announcement (though I say "maybe" because, well, I don't want to get my hopes up). It's the 25th anniversary year for the series and Atlus has stated they have some announcements to make this year. Unless it's all remakes, ports, and spin-offs--certainly not out of the question--it's possible we'll at least get a teaser for Persona 6. I've heard non-specific rumors browsing reddit and some-such that Persona 3 would be getting a PC HD re-release. Which would be amazing if true.
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Mar 17, 2021 20:20
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Solaris 2.0 posted:I've heard non-specific rumors browsing reddit and some-such that Persona 3 would be getting a PC HD re-release. Which would be amazing if true. I very strongly doubt those rumors are founded in anything. That's not to say they aren't making that game, I just distrust that the person who started them knows anything at all.
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Mar 17, 2021 20:22
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Given the trend with Persona games, Persona 6 will feature a female protagonist, be set on Kyushu, have the main villain be obsessed to the Kirijo group research and the non-human party member will be a fish. Yes I know Persona 4 is the only one that is really similar to the equivalent Jojo part. I'm still making the joke.
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Mar 17, 2021 20:23
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HaB posted:Isn't Rise the same age too? Or did she take time off school to do Idol things, so she's older but still in Kanji's class? She's just like a couple months older. In golden she brags about how she just had a birthday and can get her motorcycle license while Kanji is stuck with a bicycle.
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Mar 17, 2021 20:23
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Best Bi Geek Squid posted:I feel like kanji has to be at least bi for the shadows to make sense, and the game screwed up its internal logic by trying to deny that I disagree. It still works with him thinking he might be gay because of peer perceptions of society. Remember that he has this uncertainty not because he is gay but because he is a sensitive male who likes 'cute' things and beauty, in all it's forms. I'd say it's quite nuanced but it's not because this is a problem that is extremely common today - I'd go as far as saying I know people who think they should be female because they don't fit the 'traditional' male stereotype. Whilst also heavily liking tradition. Being 'bi' is such a simple way of telling what is a more complex character. It's funny because in trying to break down these walls people simplifying to that extent are doing the opposite of that which they intend to do. If your knee jerk reaction to a story questioning the male stereotype is "the character must be gay/bi" you are part of the problem as much as those who dislike gays. Why? You're equally making it so that men must be the traditional stereotype by having that reaction. I've made the same argument against that recently release history-fiction book the 'song of Achilles'. Superficial people mark it as progressive but it's effect on society is that men can't care for other men without being 'gay'. They can't be saddened and seen crying for the loss of a friend without it being their lover. Catsplosion fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Mar 17, 2021 |
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Mar 17, 2021 20:27
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Solaris 2.0 posted:My comment, which is clearly being taken away further than it was meant to, was simply a reflection that by and large, Japan's social views on LGBTQ subjects is more conservative than contemporary western views. This actually isn't even true though. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/world/asia/japan-gay-marriage.html quote:A recent poll reflected the dichotomy. The survey, by the advertising giant Dentsu, found that more than half of gay men and lesbians in Japan were concerned about coming out. Yet it also showed that almost 80 percent of people 60 and under now support same-sex marriage. https://www.prri.org/research/amid-multiple-crises-trump-and-biden-supporters-see-different-realities-and-futures-for-the-nation/ quote:The vast majority of Americans (70%) favor allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally, compared to 28% of Americans who oppose it. Majorities of Democrats (80%) and independents (76%), as well as half of Republicans (50%), support same-sex marriage. https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/ResultDoc/download/DocumentKy/87771 EU barometer shows average of 76% in the EU and even 'Western views' like Italy and Austria hang at 70% and 68%.
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Mar 17, 2021 20:31
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What 'Japan' thinks isn't really relevant. The relevant thing is not being able to date Yusuke/Kanji/Akechi/Yosuke was a mistake.
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Mar 17, 2021 21:43
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