sexpig by night posted:

Yea has Biden done ANYTHING about the, at the very least, multiple reports of rape and abuse from these camps when the Bad Man (tm) was running them? Like, that feels like a major part of making our concentration camps more woke and good.

ram dass in hell posted:

[Biden workshopping new concentration camp marketing slogans] If you like your uterus, you can keep it, jack!

-Blackadder- posted:

Seriously, is there even the remotest indication Biden is going to do anything like prosecuting anyone for this?

That's what I thought. Since we're off in fantasy land I might as well take that date with Megan Thee Stallion.

Bishyaler posted:

It's not bad that we have an immigration thread, but it does feel like the need for this was created out of not making liberals uncomfortable about Biden expanding on Trump's policies while allowing ICE and CBP to run amok.

Fritz the Horse posted:

There was a long segment on NPR All Things Considered this morning that was really interesting, they interviewed a couple journalists, advocates, lawyers. I'm assuming it'll get posted to their website later today or tomorrow, I'll track down a link then or if a kind goon comes across it that would be appreciated.

Some important points, I apologize for cliff notes version as I'm at work:

-Under the Trump admin, unaccompanied minors were turned back at the border and forced to wait on the Mexican side. These Mexican border towns are very dangerous and kids have been camped there for up to a year or more.
-Biden admin is now allowing all unaccompanied minors through as a humanitarian response because holy poo poo we can't let unaccompanied kids sit in the Mexican border towns. That's part of what is contributing to the surge in kids crossing the border even though we're not to 2019 peak levels yet. Thousands of kids that have been camped on the Mexican side of the border are now being allowed to enter.
-Problem is, the US immigration system has for decades been focused on deterrence and punishment rather than increasing capacity to provide services to refugees and migrants. As a result we don't have the facilities to adequately house and process kids through. One of the interviews was with Jacob Soboroff who described the current conditions as better than Trump era cages but still prison-like and unacceptable.
-Under Trump a lot of the kids in camps were forcibly separated from their families, that's no longer occurring. This is a somewhat different scenario.
-The immigration system was compared to a large ship. It's slow and difficult to change direction.

In particular the part that was new to me was unaccompanied minors previously not being allowed entry and now there's a surge after Biden admin allowed all of them in. It seems like they are between a rock and a hard place--it's unthinkable to let kids camp on the Mexican side in very dangerous conditions so we ought to let them through as a matter of human rights. Problem is, we don't have the capacity to adequately house and process kids through to host families. My impression was the guests were basically saying this is the less bad option, but Biden admin could do more to respond and is going to need to because it's going to be an ongoing crisis.

What's causing the surge in migration are the problems in the countries of origin, mostly Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala. It's not US policy that's causing more people to come. Until those root causes are addressed we're going to continue to have increasing numbers of refugees and the US immigration system has been geared toward deterrence and punishment rather than accepting refugees and asylum seekers.

sexpig by night posted:

So can we say 'concentration' camps in here or are we still required to pretend 'internment camp' is an actual legal different term and not literally just a synonym for concentration camp.

sexpig by night posted:

it literally was made because multiple D&D mods tried to gaslight people into thinking 'internment camp' meant something different than 'concentration camp' so yea this thread only exists so USPol doesn't have to think about the kids being denied showers and phone calls and representation as they sit in a glorified prison for the crime of existing while brown.

Majorian posted:

Have at it, as far as I'm concerned. Everyone can call them whatever they want, I don't care. Just don't get into ridiculously pedantic arguments about how to label them; I've got no patience for that, and frankly, neither should any of you! There's way more important poo poo to discuss.

Handsome Ralph posted:

sigh no, that's not what happened.

This thread was around last year and it fell into disuse. The standing policy in USPOL over the last several months has been that if a specific topic starts to take over USPOL, we will suggest that posters take it to a dedicated thread such as this one, or if one doesn't exist, create one. This isn't a containment thread. In fact, the rules applicable to the rest of D&D apply here just as much as they do in USPOL. So maybe keep that in before posting takes that substitute anger for knowledge or are thinly veiled attempts to troll other posters attempting to discuss the issue in good faith.

wrt "Concentration Camp" vs "Internment Camp", I'll be honest in that I (and quite possibly the rest of the mods/IKs) do not give a poo poo what you personally want to call the facilities. The problem is when people start using different terms as a lovely cudgel to own their posting enemies, and neither myself or the other IKs/Mods felt like dealing with the pedantry of it. Put simpler, it's a good example of why we can't have nice things in USPOL sometimes.

Again, this isn't a containment thread. You're still in D&D and some modicum of effort is still expected if you want to post here about this topic. If that isn't for you, then there are other forums were you can post like that to your hearts content. But it ain't here.

That's honestly it.


Or shorter, this.

sexpig by night posted:

You literally tried to use 'I interviewed holocaust survivors so you shouldn't say concentration camp', please don't bring these weird lies here because you clearly do give a poo poo

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Fritz the Horse posted:

What's causing the surge in migration are the problems in the countries of origin, mostly Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala. It's not US policy that's causing more people to come.

quote:

Honduras

Handsome Ralph posted:

sigh no, that's not what happened.

Again, this isn't a containment thread.

Neurolimal posted:

Bishyaler posted:

Great, then I look forward to the immediate influx of Dem Party cheerleaders eager to defend Biden slapping a rainbow sticker on Trump's white supremacy camps like they did in the USPOL thread. But we both know that won't happen. Out of sight out of mind, right?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Bishyaler posted:

Great, then I look forward to the immediate influx of Dem Party cheerleaders eager to defend Biden slapping a rainbow sticker on Trump's white supremacy camps like they did in the USPOL thread. But we both know that won't happen. Out of sight out of mind, right?

Jaxyon posted:

Yes the people you imagined to exist in the other thread are also possible for you to imagine to exist here.

I can tell how much people truly care about immigrants being tortured because of this page of trying to own posting enemies. That's the real fight right there.

Majorian posted:

USPOL isn't going to exist anymore in a few days' time, and none of its successor threads are going to be "Biden/Dem cheerleading" zones. If people want to make a pro-Joe fanclub thread, they can take it to another sub. DnD is about discussing issues, not politics as a team sport.

Majorian posted:

USPOL isn't going to exist anymore in a few days' time, and none of its successor threads are going to be "Biden/Dem cheerleading" zones. If people want to make a pro-Joe fanclub thread, they can take it to another sub. DnD is about discussing issues, not politics as a team sport.

LGD posted:

The credibility of this statement seems somewhat challenged by the numerous probations handed out on this page and in the US POL thread in relation to the decision of D&D mods to engage in active censorship of the term "concentration camp" in relation to things that they themselves concede are indeed concentration camps, explicitly because usage of the term is too provocative to people who have taken it upon themselves to defend the operation of concentration camps by the Biden administration (and who in several cases can be shown to have had zero qualms about using the term to refer to the same camps, being operated by the same people, under the previous administration).

socialsecurity posted:

So are your saying that USPOL was a Biden cheerleading zone? Could you point out these team sport posts so we can know not post like that in the future?

Insanite posted:

Is it okay for this thread to be about US immigration policy and not boring slapfights?

the 2016 lover posted:

Biden admin now limiting what information can be shared about the decompression centers.
https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1372136896504201217

quote:

A DHS spokesperson said the agency is following standards set in 2014.

"Across the federal government, certain employees are designated spokespeople for their respective agencies and public statements are vetted to ensure accuracy. This standard and process has been followed at DHS since the Department's inception and across bipartisan administrations. Customs and Border Protection continues to publicly provide the same monthly data on the same schedule as it has since 2014," the spokesperson said.

Insanite posted:

Is it okay for this thread to be about US immigration policy and not boring slapfights?

Kalit posted:

Moving my post from USPOL to here:


I'm a little concerned, but it could be understandable. The whole no more border ride-alongs is fine, IMO. Trump didn't care about COVID, so I'm not surprised it's changed.

As far as the rest of the media freeze out, I can understand wanting a centralized message. It would be nice to be more transparent about the child detention centers, but it's the early days so I can see them wanting as few distractions as possible. Hopefully it doesn't continue on like that.

FWIW, here's the official response for those who didn't read the full article:

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

I don't trust gag orders one bit when journalists are being denied access to the facilities. Like, yeah, you're going to get politically-motivated leaks out of CBP officers if you make them the journalists' only source, but you can also get around that by actually providing the information people want to know through the official channels.

sexpig by night posted:

yea it feels like even if the 'well Border Patrol is fascist and wants to make Biden look bad by lying to Fox' poo poo is right the way to fight that would be, ya know, letting journalists and lawyers into the camp to report on what's going on.

quote:

On 2/2/21, the White House issued an executive order to implement a comprehensive three-part plan for safe, lawful, and orderly migration across the southern border, as well as to review the Migrant Protection Protocols (MPP) program. The order also directs a series of actions to restore the U.S. asylum system. (86 FR 8267, 2/5/21)

Executive Order 14010 of February 2, 2021

Creating a Comprehensive Regional Framework To Address the Causes of Migration, To Manage Migration Throughout North and Central America, and To Provide Safe and Orderly Processing of Asylum Seekers at the United States Border

Jaxyon posted:

My take is that Biden doesn't want journalists in there because it's Real Bad.

He may not have specifically created the conditions but he sure hasn't done enough to fix them, nor quickly enough. So pure cover-your-rear end politics.

We can debate whether he actually cares about it but he sure hasn't resolved it.

Fritz the Horse posted:

-Under the Trump admin, unaccompanied minors were turned back at the border and forced to wait on the Mexican side. These Mexican border towns are very dangerous and kids have been camped there for up to a year or more.
-Biden admin is now allowing all unaccompanied minors through as a humanitarian response because holy poo poo we can't let unaccompanied kids sit in the Mexican border towns. That's part of what is contributing to the surge in kids crossing the border even though we're not to 2019 peak levels yet. Thousands of kids that have been camped on the Mexican side of the border are now being allowed to enter.
-Problem is, the US immigration system has for decades been focused on deterrence and punishment rather than increasing capacity to provide services to refugees and migrants. As a result we don't have the facilities to adequately house and process kids through. One of the interviews was with Jacob Soboroff who described the current conditions as better than Trump era cages but still prison-like and unacceptable.
-Under Trump a lot of the kids in camps were forcibly separated from their families, that's no longer occurring. This is a somewhat different scenario.
-The immigration system was compared to a large ship. It's slow and difficult to change direction.

In particular the part that was new to me was unaccompanied minors previously not being allowed entry and now there's a surge after Biden admin allowed all of them in. It seems like they are between a rock and a hard place--it's unthinkable to let kids camp on the Mexican side in very dangerous conditions so we ought to let them through as a matter of human rights. Problem is, we don't have the capacity to adequately house and process kids through to host families. My impression was the guests were basically saying this is the less bad option, but Biden admin could do more to respond and is going to need to because it's going to be an ongoing crisis.

What's causing the surge in migration are the problems in the countries of origin, mostly Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala. It's not US policy that's causing more people to come. Until those root causes are addressed we're going to continue to have increasing numbers of refugees and the US immigration system has been geared toward deterrence and punishment rather than accepting refugees and asylum seekers.

Harsha Walia posted:

Trump’s infamous Remain in Mexico program was a program that allowed U.S. border officials to return asylum seekers and refugees back to Mexico as they awaited their hearings. And so there was a lot of news about, you know, tens of thousands of Central American and African migrants and refugees who were trapped in Mexico, in teeming tent camps under horrific conditions and immobilized in Mexico unable to enter into the United States.

Really, what we will see under Joe Biden is that, you know, he may halt border wall construction, but he will continue to outsource border enforcement the way Obama did. And that will allow the U.S. to not only have a wall at the border, it will allow the U.S. to create an entire anti-migrant fortress that extends far beyond the wall itself. And we already saw this in the first few days of the Biden administration, when thousands of migrants from Honduras who were headed towards the United States were blockaded and tear gassed by Guatemalan soldiers and police.

[Sound of crowd being tear gassed]

The new frontier of U.S. border militarization is not Trump’s wall. It’s not that symbolic wall on the border. It is this far more dangerous, far more invisible, far more threatening and far more repressive form of immigration enforcement.

Fritz the Horse posted:

Could you elaborate?

Reading my post again, I probably should've said "It's not US immigration policy that's causing more people to come" because yes, US foreign policy certainly is a major driver of conditions in those countries of origin.

The point that the NPR guests were making is that migrants aren't really coming because the Biden admin is in power and they think they'll have a better chance of getting into the US, what's driving them is conditions in their countries of origin. And that's not my own take, I'm not super well read on immigration issues tbh. I was summarizing an NPR segment I found interesting.

But certainly a major part of the immigration reform conversation needs to be US foreign policy that is causing conditions in Central America that drive people to migrate.

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

I don't trust gag orders one bit when journalists are being denied access to the facilities. Like, yeah, you're going to get politically-motivated leaks out of CBP officers if you make them the journalists' only source, but you can also get around that by actually providing the information people want to know through the official channels.