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silicone thrills posted:Al Franken was an anomaly since he actually just was decent enough to resign. Anyone who is a bigger poo poo head like Biden and Cuomo and Kavanaugh certainly wont. A) The flagship case against Franken was a photograph of him smiling while molesting a sleeping woman. There was really no way to spin that. B) Chuck Schumer was working with McConnell in the investigation. C) I think people who announce the death of MeToo often just don't understand that reforms and movements are always going to naturally go through a honeymoon period. But yeah, the Franken stuff did happen at the sort of high of MeToo. D) Franken isn't really unique. There were 10 House Representatives who in a similar timespan either actively resigned because of allegations or quietly retired from congress. E) I think that does beg some meditation on how the systems to deal with executive politicians differ from legislative although US Congress is obviously not some exemplar.
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Mar 19, 2021 01:18
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Sodomy Hussein posted:At the end of the day it's simply more complicated than that and everyone here knows it. I mean either that or there's a set of rationalizations you need to adopt in order to reconcile the cognitive dissonance created by the vast gap between our leaders' statements and actions, and this is one of them.
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Mar 19, 2021 01:24
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Just a gentle reminder, folks: this thread is only going to be able to function as a discussion on a (rightfully) fraught issue if everyone involved is respectful to one another, at least to a certain extent. So let's refrain from impugning each others' motives and laying out charges of cowardice if we can help it. That's directed at no one in particular and goes for everyone.
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Mar 19, 2021 03:55
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I don't think there has ever been any point in this thread where everyone involved was respectful of each other but it's still somehow gotten to 20 pages
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Mar 19, 2021 04:38
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think that's giving too much credit to Al Franken: It was a bit more complicated than that. The allegations initially came out on Conservative media (Fox News or Radio) and it did appear as if he was grabbing a sleeping women's breasts. Franken was in tour in Iraq motivating the troops and this was supposed to have been joke. Granted, it's still harassment, poor taste, etc. but remember this the perfect combination of young men, a former comedian and in the early 2000s. And to top it off, Tweeden had done similar raunchy skits. She even accepted Franken's apology. Other accusations sexual harassment were announced, Gillibrand pounced, other Democrats followed, the internet and conservative media went wild. Franken resigned. My take, while I think Franken resigning was the right decision it's nowhere near what it was played out to be. Franken might be very well be a lovely old dude but I'm not entirely confident this was the right outcome.
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Mar 19, 2021 04:55
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quote:motivating the troops
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Mar 19, 2021 05:03
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Curious meta going on with the thread's rating. Doesn't look like too many votes, because of the fluctuations, but it does speak volumes that several posters would go out of their way to down vote this topic.
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Mar 19, 2021 05:05
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 I'm not saying it's right. It isn't. I'm not surprised a former SNL comedian made a really dumb decision to make a crude joke to a bunch of young soldiers in a war zone in the 2000s. Personally, I find the other accusations way more concerning.
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Mar 19, 2021 05:09
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Majorian posted:Just a gentle reminder, folks: this thread is only going to be able to function as a discussion on a (rightfully) fraught issue if everyone involved is respectful to one another, at least to a certain extent. So let's refrain from impugning each others' motives and laying out charges of cowardice if we can help it. That's directed at no one in particular and goes for everyone. I didn't accuse anyone of cowardice. I said that trying to excuse one's own awful comments on Reade's education by pointing to the NY Times is moral cowardice. I, of course, didn't say anyone in particular did that. But I stand by what I said: gleefully participating in the smearing of Reade over her educational record and itrying to pass the blame onto the NY Times is an act of moral cowardice. And if that bothers people, well, at least they weren't a victim of domestic abuse being accused of a crime because of not keeping close attention to a single credit hour as they fled for their lives. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 05:15
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joepinetree posted:I didn't accuse anyone of cowardice. I said that trying to say that trying to excuse one's own awful comments on Reade's education by pointing to the NY Times is moral cowardice. I, of course, didn't say anyone in particular did that. But I stand by what I said: gleefully participating in the smearing of Reade over her educational record and itrying to pass the blame onto the NY Times is an act of moral cowardice. And if that bothers people, well, at least they weren't a victim of domestic abuse being accused of a crime because of not keeping close attention to a single credit hour as they fled for their lives. Fair enough. I'm just saying, this is already a difficult, painful enough topic to discuss, and I want to make sure that people who want to join in don't feel deterred.
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Mar 19, 2021 05:20
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Corky Romanovsky posted:Curious meta going on with the thread's rating. Doesn't look like too many votes, because of the fluctuations, but it does speak volumes that several posters would go out of their way to down vote this topic. Thread ratings are about as likely to be a result of fat-fingering on mobile nowadays, but also wouldn't be surprising. It's pretty clear a lot of interests want this topic to go away forever.
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Mar 19, 2021 06:21
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quote:As Boylan’s disclosures began to draw notice on social media, a group of current and former Cuomo staffers who served as his informal crisis-communications brain trust moved to squash them “in real time,” according to one person with direct knowledge of the effort. Members of that group included Melissa DeRosa, a senior aide; Rich Azzopardi, Cuomo’s spokesperson; and Steven M. Cohen, a former secretary to the Governor. They circulated Boylan’s tweets and held a series of urgent calls. The group had just emerged from a frantic effort to respond to allegations that Cuomo’s office had deliberately undercounted covid-related deaths in New York nursing homes. They were “putting that to bed, and then she pipes up. And then it’s sort of a big scramble,” the person with direct knowledge of the effort told me. “It was, like, what the hell do we do about this?” Cuomo’s advisers arrived at a plan to leak Boylan’s personnel records, which included allegations that Boylan had bullied colleagues, some of them women of color. “The decision was made collectively,” the person with direct knowledge of the effort said. “That these are facts, the reporters should see them.” Weird how retaliatory character assassination is the go-to move for abusers when so many people are willing to disbelieve women's rape, assault or harassment claims as a result of "credibility problems," right?
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Mar 19, 2021 06:29
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:My take, while I think Franken resigning was the right decision it's nowhere near what it was played out to be. Franken might be very well be a lovely old dude but I'm not entirely confident this was the right outcome. ???
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Mar 19, 2021 06:46
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Timeless Appeal posted:
There certainly hasn't been that many, at least in the last 10 years or so - I was trying to google for it myself and didn't find initially find Conyers or Wu because its so memory holed but someone else mentioned them on democratic underground of all places lmao. I basically was hunting down any federal level democrats with a sexual incident that made them resign or retire. Eric Massa ( ~ 2010 ish ) sexually harassed a staff member but had said he was going to not seek reelection anyway before this came out due to a cancer scare. Weiner literally went to jail because sending pics of your dick to minors really does get you sent to jail so he didn't really like quietly resign or retire. David Wu (resigned 2011) admitted he had a "consensual" relationship with someone who was 18 and the kid of some prominent democratic fundraiser so he peaced out pretty quick. John Conyers (resigned 2017) was accused of sexual harassment but was old as hell anyway and died 2 years later at 90 years old And Katie Hill's case Who am I missing? silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 07:50
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silicone thrills posted:Eric Massa ( ~ 2010 ish ) sexually harassed a staff member but had said he was going to not seek reelection anyway before this came out due to a cancer scare. You're simplifying the timeframe of the Weiner scandal. He resigned because of the original dick pic before we knew worse poo poo. Remember that the other scandals came when Weiner tried to make a comeback. Crosby B. Alfred posted:
Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 13:09
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me, explaining why I sexually assaulted multiple women: it was for the troops
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Mar 19, 2021 13:39
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What I'm saying is that, if Franken didn't resign and asked for an investigation I think that would have been also acceptable. Given the circumstances surrounding the story I don't think he should have been pushed out by Democratic leaders. Timeless Appeal posted:I don't like the trend of victims coming to terms and finding peace being somehow counter to the victimizer facing consequences. Franken lost his entire career, he did face consequences? I don't get what you are trying to say here. Timeless Appeal posted:Which is maybe what you're implying with these wishy washy statements? I'm not imply anything, I'm merely commenting that the original description of events isn't nearly as cut and dry as it was initially described. Franken's case is much, much different than Cuomo, Biden, Clinton, etc.
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Mar 19, 2021 14:21
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:What I'm saying is that, if Franken didn't resign and asked for an investigation I think that would have been also acceptable. Given the circumstances surrounding the story I don't think he should have been pushed out by Democratic leaders. multiple women accused him of sexual harassment it wasn't just one tasteless pic, how many of them were liars?
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Mar 19, 2021 14:27
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If there are other photo's of Al Franken harassing women, that's freaking gross but news to me. As for the other accusers, yes that did happen, Franken resigned but not before the absolute onslaught of pressure from conservatives media and his own party just because of Tweeden. Which to me, wasn't enough to immediately boot him from office.
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Mar 19, 2021 14:35
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:If there are other photo's of Al Franken harassing women, that's freaking gross but news to me. As for the other accusers, yes that did happen, Franken resigned but not before the absolute onslaught of pressure from conservatives media and his own party just because of Tweeden. Which to me, wasn't enough to immediately boot him from office. what? Do you have some kind of brain disease that makes you say constantly contradictory things? Did a loving witch put a curse on you? Just answer a simple question, was Al Franken a serial sexual harasser, yes or no? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 19, 2021 14:36
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Franken lost his entire career, he did face consequences? I don't get what you are trying to say here.
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Mar 19, 2021 14:39
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Timeless Appeal posted:What I am reading from your posts is that Al Franken did something that was bad but not necessarily worth kicking him out of office. And the fact that his victim accepted his apology should have been weighed in how he faced consequences. I don't think that's true. If Franken had pushed back asking for an investigation, I would have supported that. I think many folks jumped the gun way too soon. On the other hand, folks like Cuomo should absolutely be removed as soon as possible and he the pressure he is receiving from members of his own party is absolutely well deserved. Timeless Appeal posted:And the fact that his victim accepted his apology should have been weighed in how he faced consequences. I don't think that's true. Why not?
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Mar 19, 2021 14:45
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Why not? Well at the very least he's still the sort of person that does that, which means he's likely to do it to other people, he is a public hazard and shouldn't hold office where he can misuse his authority, regardless of whether any individual people might accept apologies from him. Is this guy such a wonderful public official that you can't possibly replace him with someone who isn't a creep?
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Mar 19, 2021 14:47
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OwlFancier posted:Well at the very least he's still the sort of person that does that, which means he's likely to do it to other people, he is a public hazard and shouldn't hold office where he can misuse his authority, regardless of whether any individual people might accept apologies from him. I don't disagree. Consequences differ if someone admits what they did, apologizes for past behavior and makes amends. And Tweeden accepted his apology, to me that's make it genuine.
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Mar 19, 2021 14:52
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Why not? Cuomo and Trump's victims are allowed to forgive them. Some of Biden's have. Victims of child abuse often forgive their parents. Should that matter?
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Mar 19, 2021 14:55
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If you think he shouldn't have resigned but he is a danger in a public office then you're continuing to make very little sense. Either he should be in the office or not. You can't have it both ways. If he's really sorry as you are so bound to think he is then he should see resignation as the proper thing to do. Being sorry isn't just making a frowny face while facing no consequences.
OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 14:55
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It wasn't just the photo but also the forced kiss (wether the scene was written by him or not). Multiple accusers and more then just the pic is the point
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Mar 19, 2021 14:59
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OwlFancier posted:If you think he shouldn't have resigned but he is a danger in a public office then you're continuing to make very little sense. Either he should be in the office or not. You can't have it both ways. I believe him resigning was acceptable but if he asked for an investigation I think that would be acceptable as well. Even though I believe that investigation would have likely have led to his departure. Timeless Appeal posted:Because forgiveness is a personal thing and the idea that such a personal thing should shape the consequences someone receives is grotesque because it presents an added pressure to victims if their choice to forgive or not is what determines another person's future. Courts have been asking the feelings of victims for decades and it does have an impact. Timeless Appeal posted:Cuomo and Trump's victims are allowed to forgive them. Some of Biden's have. Victims of child abuse often forgive their parents. Should that matter? Yes, it should matter? What are you trying to say?
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Mar 19, 2021 15:06
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Courts have been asking the feelings of victims for decades and it does have an impact. quote:The apology, sure I accept it, yes. People make mistakes and of course he knew he made a mistake, So yes I do accept that apology. There's no reason why I shouldn't accept his apology. People make mistakes. I’m not calling for him to step down. That’s not my place to say that. Tweden was clear in her actual statement that her personal forgiving of Franken is a separate issue than the question if he should step down or not. quote:Yes, it should matter? What are you trying to say? Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 16:04
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Timeless Appeal posted:That often requires a level of agency and choice on the victim's part, knowingly swaying the outcome for their abuser. Okay but what's your point exactly? The severity of consequences for a hurtful action whether it be in court in between personal friends or in a professional capacity is certainly weighed against many things including if someone admits fault, apologizes and makes amends. Timeless Appeal posted:Tweden was clear in her actual statement that her personal forgiving of Franken is a separate issue than the question if he should step down or not. I agree it is a separate issue but there's overlap. If Franken called her liar and didn't apologize Democrats would have absolutely justified been right to demand his resignation right then and there. I'd be asking for him to step down as well. If she said she thought the apology wasn't genuine and he was lying piece of poo poo. That'd certainly influence my opinion if he should resign or we should have an investigation. Timeless Appeal posted:In the context of if Cuomo should be impeached for example, does it matter? Does what matter? Cuomo hasn't really apologized for his behavior. As far as I can tell, he doesn't believe what he's doing is wrong. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 16:26
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I don't care if every accuser forgives a sexpest. That they forgave does not mean they didn't say it never happened and I will in no situation support the continuation of a sexual harasser in a position of power Edit: want to make it clear I care in the sense of whether they keep power. The emotional wellbeing of accusers is not what I'm referring to World Famous W fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 16:43
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:What I'm saying is that, if Franken didn't resign and asked for an investigation I think that would have been also acceptable. Given the circumstances surrounding the story I don't think he should have been pushed out by Democratic leaders. Keep in mind that at that time, it had been recently disclosed that members of Congress who'd been accused of sexual harassment & sexual assault were "accountable" only to secret congressional tribunals; it could me that the MoC who urged him to resign were knowledgable about additional accusations and charges. (Speaking of which, it's pretty appalling that to this day we have no knowledge of the accusations & outcomes contained within those secret tribunals. Would love to know if our current president, as well as the current MoC, ever faced such inquiries, but the press never found it newsworthy to query for either him or other former/sitting members of Congress.) The Oldest Man posted:The group had just emerged from a frantic effort to respond to allegations that Cuomo’s office had deliberately undercounted covid-related deaths in New York nursing homes. They were “putting that to bed, and then she pipes up. And then it’s sort of a big scramble,” the person with direct knowledge of the effort told me. lol, this graf does a lot of heavy-lifting irony-wise. "Let's put those dead seniors we killed 'to bed'."
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Mar 19, 2021 18:03
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:What I'm saying is that, if Franken didn't resign and asked for an investigation I think that would have been also acceptable. Given the circumstances surrounding the story I don't think he should have been pushed out by Democratic leaders. A pending investigation had already been announced at the time he resigned--but he still chose to resign rather than face an inquiry. eta: Crosby B. Alfred posted:If Franken had pushed back asking for an investigation, I would have supported that. I think many folks jumped the gun way too soon. A pending investigation had already been announced at the time he resigned--but he still chose to resign rather than face an inquiry. etaa: quote:I believe him resigning was acceptable but if he asked for an investigation I think that would be acceptable as well. Even though I believe that investigation would have likely have led to his departure. A pending investigation had already been announced at the time he resigned--but he still chose to resign rather than face an inquiry. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 18:05
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Willa Rogers posted:Keep in mind that at that time, it had been recently disclosed that members of Congress who'd been accused of sexual harassment & sexual assault were "accountable" only to secret congressional tribunals; it could me that the MoC who urged him to resign were knowledgable about additional accusations and charges. That's extremely... weird and doesn't sit right with me at all. I would think we as citizens have a right to know the outcome of these tribunals. Willa Rogers posted:A pending investigation had already been announced at the time he resigned--but he still chose to resign rather than face an inquiry. No doubt but that didn't stop the barrage of leaders demanding his resignation especially Gillibrand and others before an investigation could be completed. That's the crux of my concern. Holding investigations should be the norm and demands for resignation the exception.
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Mar 19, 2021 18:21
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If only it were possible to do both.
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Mar 19, 2021 18:24
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OwlFancier posted:If only it were possible to do both. Not sure what the point of an investigation is if you're just going to force the guy to resign anyway?
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Mar 19, 2021 18:31
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You seem to be coming at this from the idea that the greatest wrong is that the guy could be unfairly maligned by gangs of women rather than that if a bunch of people come forward to say a dude sexually harassed them then his holding a public office is pretty untenable. The point of an investigation, if you are so fixated on having one, is to hopefully lend credence to the accusers or, in the unlikely event that they were all lying, clear the name of the accused. But this is in no way incompatible with the idea that given the power imbalance involved in sexual misconduct allegations that they should not be holding the office effective immediately. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 18:35
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Timeless Appeal posted:Barton, Farenthold, Franks, Kihuen, Meehan, and Murphy. The ones you named are Republicans? Sorry I was only naming democrats. I hold dems to a higher standard just because I feel like the party at least pretends to care about women. Republicans have never pretended that.
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Mar 19, 2021 18:47
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OwlFancier posted:You seem to be coming at this from the idea that the greatest wrong is that the guy could be unfairly maligned by gangs of women rather than that if a bunch of people come forward to say a dude sexually harassed them then his holding a public office is pretty untenable. I don't know how in the hell you are interrupting "gangs of women" from my earlier statement. To be clear, I don't believe that any of them are a part of any gang. The greatest wrong would be an innocent person being hurt. OwlFancier posted:The point of an investigation, if you are so fixated on having one, is to hopefully lend credence to the accusers or, in the unlikely event that they were all lying, clear the name of the accused. Yes, and this should occur. Am not sure where we disagree on this? I don't believe asking people to reserve judgement with an on-going situation where we don't have the all details is being fixated. This ought be the norm.
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Mar 19, 2021 18:56
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silicone thrills posted:The ones you named are Republicans? Sorry I was only naming democrats. I hold dems to a higher standard just because I feel like the party at least pretends to care about women. Republicans have never pretended that.
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Mar 19, 2021 18:59
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