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Don't forget to expand your job search range as well. Pretty much everyone has come to terms with hiring remote people right now. Most of our IT jobs are listed as one of our 3 big offices or 100% remote.
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Mar 19, 2021 18:00
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Am I loving up if I don't have a LinkedIn? I don't have any social media and you can't find anything about me if you search my irl name... But I'm getting desperate. A recruiter told me it was completely unreasonable to expect to get a £15k increase yesterday (about 33%) when moving jobs. I had some suspicion that there was some rule with recruitment here that you aren't allowed to go up X amount to a new job.
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Mar 19, 2021 18:14
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loving up? No... I wouldn't go that far. You are hurting yourself though. You are basically eliminating the possibility of recruiters finding you though. If you want to control the jobs you're considered for, thats fine, you don't need a LinkedIn, but you should realize it's like The place to have recruiters find you for a job. Their job postings are pretty good as well. Recruiters use LinkedIn to find potential candidates. A recruiter I used to support literally just searched LinkedIn all day for <keywords><location> and messaged people if they were looking for a new job. Pretty much every recruiter on the planet uses LinkedIn, so if you're not on there, they're not seeing you. Create a LinkedIn page, spend some time fleshing it out with all sorts of juicy key words, put up a photo (no one cares what you look like, but profiles with photos do better), and click the "open to work" button or whatever it is, and you'll start showing up in recruiter searches pretty quickly. You'll also get job posting alerts. Most of the recruiters are going to be looking for short term contract gigs, I don't know what you're looking for, but it's a useful tool. Recruiters can kiss our rear end, it's not their job to tell us what we should make, the market determines that. I got a 25% raise when I started my new job, and I probably left money on the table. A goon a few posts before you is leaving his job for an 82% raise. Get your paper skipdogg fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 18:24
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uhhhhahhhhohahhh posted:Am I loving up if I don't have a LinkedIn? uhhhhahhhhohahhh posted:A recruiter told me it was completely unreasonable to expect to get a £15k increase yesterday (about 33%) when moving jobs. I had some suspicion that there was some rule with recruitment here that you aren't allowed to go up X amount to a new job. I don't know if it's different under the Her Majesty's Rules of Employment, but if you don't tell a recruiter what you're making, they can't tell you a percentage is impossible. NEVER, EVER BE THE FIRST TO SAY A NUMBER. There are exceptions. When they start applying to you, you'll figure them out. ETA: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued by Patrick McKenzie (@patio11 on Twitter) should be required reading for all the IT posters. Wizard of the Deep fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 18:24
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uhhhhahhhhohahhh posted:Am I loving up if I don't have a LinkedIn? I don't have any social media and you can't find anything about me if you search my irl name... But I'm getting desperate. Get LinkedIn setup, it made a huge difference for me. That recruiter is an idiot.
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Mar 19, 2021 18:25
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uhhhhahhhhohahhh posted:A recruiter told me it was completely unreasonable to expect to get a £15k increase yesterday (about 33%) when moving jobs. I had some suspicion that there was some rule with recruitment here that you aren't allowed to go up X amount to a new job. There aren't any rules. If a company thinks it'll make them £45k more, they'll give you a £15k raise. The recruiter just thinks it'll be harder to fit you into one of the positions they have in mind already. People get paid hundreds of thousands to do basically nothing, the idea that there are set-in-stone salary rules is bunk.
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Mar 19, 2021 18:40
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Not sure if it's anyone else's experience, but the more money I make in IT, the less actual work I do. I worked my rear end off for 42K a year when I first started out, now I feel like I barely do poo poo but attend meetings and make almost triple that now.
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Mar 19, 2021 18:43
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skipdogg posted:Not sure if it's anyone else's experience, but the more money I make in IT, the less actual work I do. I worked my rear end off for 42K a year when I first started out, now I feel like I barely do poo poo but attend meetings and make almost triple that now. Oh yeah, that’s my experience as well. I just broke in to the six-figgie-piggie range and do less work than ever
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Mar 19, 2021 18:45
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Every dollar I’ve made past 100k has been one less hour of work a year, right now I spend all year playing Stardew Valley. I recently shed management responsibility and got a huge raise which is loving 
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Mar 19, 2021 18:59
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrKW58MS12g somewhat IT related, glitter bomb guy teamed up with jim browning.
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Mar 19, 2021 19:01
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Wizard of the Deep posted:
That's not really going to be an option I don't think. If the recruiter calls me and asks what I'm on now, and what I'm looking for, and I just say I'd rather not say they'll just end the call. I'm kind of screwed either way. I had one recruiter call about a job a few weeks back ask what I was looking for and what I'm on now, then he ended the call immediately after. A few hours later, another recruiter called me about the exact same job, I said I was looking for the same number and he said that's what the job paid. The only difference with that call is he didn't ask what I was on now. I don't think I'm being unreasonable with asking for that sort of increase, either. I'm public sector which is just generally worse pay than equivalent private sector jobs, plus the org I work for pays 1 pay band down for the same job title than basically every other NHS organisation, which would close the gap if I was on the higher banding. I am on other job sites here that let recruiters search your profile, just not LinkedIn. Been kind of resisting it because I don't like the idea of my name showing up in Google but doesn't seem like I have much choice at the moment. Gort posted:There aren't any rules. If a company thinks it'll make them £45k more, they'll give you a £15k raise. The recruiter just thinks it'll be harder to fit you into one of the positions they have in mind already. The money I asked for was what the job was offering. It was specifically the increase from what I'm on now that was the problem.
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Mar 19, 2021 19:26
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uhhhhahhhhohahhh posted:Am I loving up if I don't have a LinkedIn? I don't have any social media and you can't find anything about me if you search my irl name... But I'm getting desperate. The UK job market is poo poo, salaries are awful, the recruiters seem to all be literal children. I don't have any suggestions for making this better, though. You can have a LinkedIn without it going on a Google index https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/83 Thanks Ants fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 19:29
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uhhhhahhhhohahhh posted:That's not really going to be an option I don't think. If the recruiter calls me and asks what I'm on now, and what I'm looking for, and I just say I'd rather not say they'll just end the call. I'm kind of screwed either way. They had twice as much budgeted for that role and you shot yourself in the foot. First recruiter thought you were a scrub. You need to get yourself over to the negotiations thread right away. They will teach you how to ask 'what do they have budgeted for the position?' and how to say "I'm currently making [2x current salary], and I'm willing to find a mutually agreeable number'.
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Mar 19, 2021 19:33
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uhhhhahhhhohahhh posted:That's not really going to be an option I don't think. If the recruiter calls me and asks what I'm on now, and what I'm looking for, and I just say I'd rather not say they'll just end the call. I'm kind of screwed either way. If the recruiter calls and asks what you're on now, and these are somehow the only recruiters you're getting, you need to start engineering your profile better. If you really can't find anyone else, then at the very least add 50% or 100% onto your current salary and give that as the number. Definitely get on LinkedIn.
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Mar 19, 2021 19:42
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Cat Army
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uhhhhahhhhohahhh posted:That's not really going to be an option I don't think. If the recruiter calls me and asks what I'm on now, and what I'm looking for, and I just say I'd rather not say they'll just end the call. I'm kind of screwed either way. I'm gonna slightly disagree with everyone here on never talking salary first. I have no problem with giving a desired range, if recruiters and companies want to negotiate that's fine but I also make it very clear that I don't change employers for pocket change, there should be a significant increase in compensation. My experience so far has been that once you drop a range, recruiters are more than happy to divulge what range they have available for a position. And you can use that number to drive up prices for every other recruiter that comes your way afterwards. edit: And get on Linkedin, all the recruiters live there, especially the recruiters with good openings that are not listed anywhere. Sprechensiesexy fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 19:42
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Is there a LinkedIn thread around here or in BFC? If not someone should start one. A well done LinkedIn profile is basically a requirement these days for finding good tech work. Never say a number is generally good advice, but I usually have a very good grasp on market rates, what current employees are making (glassdoor, levels, etc), so you should have a ballpark idea of what the job pays before you even interview. On the flip side, medium to large corps have a loving salary range already planned. Jobs don't appear through thin air at bigcorp. Headcount requisitions are done with HR and finance, salary bands are figured out (radford scales), and budgets are set. The company knows drat well what their budget is. skipdogg fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 19:45
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Thanks Ants posted:The UK job market is poo poo, salaries are awful, the recruiters seem to all be literal children. I don't have any suggestions for making this better, though. That link will make it much easier for me, thanks. Happiness Commando posted:They had twice as much budgeted for that role and you shot yourself in the foot. First recruiter thought you were a scrub. The second recruiter just emailed me a link to the job posting on the company's website (it was a famous motorsport company) and told me to apply there... It had the same salary on there too  they certainly aren't going to be paying £130k for senior network engineers. Every job with that title in central London is £65k and 95% of those are at banks or MSPs.The Iron Rose posted:If the recruiter calls and asks what you're on now, and these are somehow the only recruiters you're getting, you need to start engineering your profile better. If you really can't find anyone else, then at the very least add 50% or 100% onto your current salary and give that as the number. I'm kind of plumping it up a bit already, that's the worst part  it could also kind of gently caress me though. My organisation has told managers to not respond to references. There's a generic mailbox and any reference request gets a reply with the years you worked there, the amount of sick days you've taken and your salary. They'll see that I've lied and potentially pull the plug on the job offer.
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Mar 19, 2021 19:54
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skipdogg posted:Is there a LinkedIn thread around here or in BFC? If not someone should start one. A well done LinkedIn profile is basically a requirement these days for finding good tech work. I'd be game for this but for those getting hit up my recruiters did you just fill in the resume section? Keywords? Does your current location matter? skipdogg posted:Never say a number is generally good advice, but I usually have a very good grasp on market rates, what current employees are making (glassdoor, levels, etc), so you should have a ballpark idea of what the job pays before you even interview. On the flip side, medium to large corps have a loving salary range already planned. Jobs don't appear through thin air at bigcorp. Headcount requisitions are done with HR and finance, salary bands are figured out (radford scales), and budgets are set. The company knows drat well what their budget is.  While I like my current position I've been scouring across LinkedIn, GlassDoor, etc. and I seriously miss the 2000s era of Craigslist. It's also simultaneously good and bad seeing hundreds of Office 365 Admin roles but only paying $45k/y.
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Mar 19, 2021 19:58
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man the UK market is really poo poo, because you could trivially find a senior network engineer job over here for £130k. In pounds, not dollars. The fact your work provides salary details in the reference is ridiculous, but good news! A: nobody checks references B: it's your current employer, so you can usually request they not contact them anyways and instead provide [ex-manager, friend, your neighbour down the street you paid 20 bucks to pretend to be a tech VP] instead learn to love lying my friend
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Mar 19, 2021 19:59
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Some of y’all have to deal with some hosed up labor laws, if my employer was telling people my salary I’d lawyer up for sure.
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Mar 19, 2021 20:00
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Darchangel posted:That was apparently the feeling when I interviewed for my current position (Desktop Support,) but thankfully, I was the 3rd guy who made the first two look even worse. The 3rd person to interview was super overqualified but has been out of work after his business failed during covid. So, to go with the person who can definitely do the job but will immediately start job hunting, or the ultra-nervous, first IT job, will need a lot of training person.
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Mar 19, 2021 20:00
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I've not seen references give out salary info, that's a bit weird
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Mar 19, 2021 20:07
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i am a moron posted:Some of y’all have to deal with some hosed up labor laws Lmao
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Mar 19, 2021 20:09
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CLAM DOWN posted:Lmao At least our ability to decide our own fate isn’t as seemingly messed up as the UK where your current employer can snitch on you to your next one and they can sue if you decide you don’t want a 12 week notice period. I’ll grant you, the US needs better labor laws for a billion things but from a myopic point of view none of it comes into play for me. Also you’re in a union, which is cool. But are Canadian labor laws really all that different? I really don’t know how our 51st state does business
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Mar 19, 2021 20:15
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i am a moron posted:Also you’re in a union, which is cool. But are Canadian labor laws really all that different? I really don’t know how our 51st state does business Yes, they are. Out of scope for this thread and I don't want to do a typical clammy thing and derail it, but if you want to chat about it please DM me!!!
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Mar 19, 2021 20:17
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The UK is a trade off. 30 days notice is normal IIRC, but they also can't fire you for no reason, even laying someone off is a pain in the rear end. Not as bad as France though... Salaries tend to be lower in the UK as well compared to the US, but ya'll have the NHS.
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Mar 19, 2021 20:21
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I think germany has some crazy 60 day notice or something.
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Mar 19, 2021 20:22
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The Iron Rose posted:man the UK market is really poo poo, because you could trivially find a senior network engineer job over here for £130k. In pounds, not dollars. I'm always careful with calling a whole market poo poo since there are lots of differences between tax rates, cost of living etc. but yeah, London and UK in general seem to pay very little for what is a very expensive country to live in. jaegerx posted:I think germany has some crazy 60 day notice or something. Based on my experiences interviewing, Germany as excessively long probation and notice periods. Probation can be up to 6 months and notice period: If the employee has worked for the company for: 2 to 4 years, the notice period is one month prior to the last day of the next month; 5 to 7 years, the notice period is two months prior to the last day of the next month; 8 to 9 years, the notice period is three months prior to the last day of the next month; 10 to 11 years, the notice period is four months prior to the last day of the next month; 12 to 14 years, the notice period is five months prior to the last day of the next month; 15 to 19 years, the notice period is six months prior to the last day of the next month; 20 years or longer, the notice period is seven months prior to the last day of the next month. Collective bargaining agreements often designate a longer period of notice. Here in Czechia, 3 months probation and 2 months notice but the notice period is always negotiable. Sprechensiesexy fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 20:23
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skipdogg posted:Not as bad as France though. France's labor laws are freaking great. In France if you change my manager that's essentially the same as laying someone off because to the French Government switching managers is essentially giving someone a different job. That's kind of true.
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Mar 19, 2021 20:26
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CLAM DOWN posted:Yes, they are. Out of scope for this thread and I don't want to do a typical clammy thing and derail it, but if you want to chat about it please DM me!!! Nice. I don’t have PMs, but I should have phrased what I was saying differently. They’re stuff I’m not used to, obviously our lack of mat/pat leave laws, the difficulty of unionizing, company’s being able to do layoffs at will, at will employment in general, few recourses outside of filing lawsuits when wronged, is all very bad.
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Mar 19, 2021 20:29
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uhhhhahhhhohahhh posted:That's not really going to be an option I don't think. If the recruiter calls me and asks what I'm on now, and what I'm looking for, and I just say I'd rather not say they'll just end the call. I'm kind of screwed either way. Can you not share your salary information with people outside the organization, please? Now, you can honestly answer any recruiter with that question that you've been asked not to share specifics around compensation with outside entities. You can say that you're adequately compensated for your skillset in your market. If they push further: "Salary is one factor in considering my next position. Other factors include benefits, vacation, skill development opportunities, and most importantly the team I'd be working with. What's the budgetary range you have established for the role?" Seriously, go back and read the link I posted earlier. I'm rereading it again, and kicking myself for missing one of the tricks in my own recent negotiations.
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Mar 19, 2021 20:30
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Sprechensiesexy posted:I'm always careful with calling a whole market poo poo since there are lots of differences between tax rates, cost of living etc. but yeah, London and UK in general seem to pay very little for what is a very expensive country to live in. I don't know about London, but we had an office in Saltaire. UK salaries didn't match up to the US equivalent, but my former co-worker lived differently than we do in the US. He had an affordable flat he could walk to work from, his wife took public transportation. They had 1 small car between the two of them that they rarely used. 5 weeks holiday I think, bank holidays, 37.5 hour work week, NHS, not sure about retirement, but overall he seemed happier than those of us in the US.
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Mar 19, 2021 20:31
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I like how the Swedes get the whole month of July to gently caress off and do whatever. That sounds neat.
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Mar 19, 2021 20:36
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uhhhhahhhhohahhh posted:Am I loving up if I don't have a LinkedIn? Yeah. You don't have to be active on LinkedIn at all (I think people who post there are psychotic) but you should make a profile.
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Mar 19, 2021 20:43
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Sprechensiesexy posted:I'm gonna slightly disagree with everyone here on never talking salary first. I have no problem with giving a desired range, if recruiters and companies want to negotiate that's fine but I also make it very clear that I don't change employers for pocket change, there should be a significant increase in compensation. To be fair, this is how to approach things *AFTER* you get to the point in your career where you're comfortable. Many many many people, even in this industry, are not paid well enough to have that buffer, and a lot end up having to settle for scraps while climbing the ladder because they don't think they have any leverage in salary negotiations.
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Mar 19, 2021 20:45
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Also, unfortunately for me, every salary in the NHS is posted on the internet. Very hard to try and stonewall on numbers when it's the first result in Google.
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Mar 19, 2021 21:00
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Wizard of the Deep posted:Can you not share your salary information with people outside the organization, please? it's a really fantastic post and I've bookmarked it for my next negotiation. The link you posted got a bit borked though, here's the correct one: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
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Mar 19, 2021 21:06
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Paladine_PSoT posted:To be fair, this is how to approach things *AFTER* you get to the point in your career where you're comfortable. Many many many people, even in this industry, are not paid well enough to have that buffer, and a lot end up having to settle for scraps while climbing the ladder because they don't think they have any leverage in salary negotiations. I mean the thing is that it's a barometer in its own right. If you lowball yourself and they take it and run to save a few bucks you don't wanna work there anyway, but I guess the problem is you probably won't know that's the case for a while. My recent new job experience was all around a pretty great process and the salary/comp discussion actually helped me really feel good about accepting the offer when it did come in. In my experience, trying to be really hardline about not giving a number or past salary has probably been harmful in my job hunts. At this point, I am fine with the latter part of that because I truly think companies would only want prior salary numbers in order to gently caress you, but giving a number really doesn't seem like it should be such a taboo.
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Mar 19, 2021 21:08
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So the company that just hired me for 82% more is European and my state has a law against asking current comp. It absolutely netted me 5-15K more. I named a number and they flat out said "he can't be on that much at <current employer>, no way." And they asked if the go-between would ask me, and he replied he couldn't. They mulled it over and made me an offer at the bottom of my range (yes I brass balled this one) which was their stretch amount. edit: And it was a blind email on linkedin for a title below my current one but for up to $70,000 more if I had topped the range. I got like 65k more, and I never ever would have seen this job without LinkedIn, even if I were looking, because of the title. I've never met this recruiter before, he lives in the UK and I live on the East Coast USA. bus hustler fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Mar 19, 2021 |
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Mar 19, 2021 21:18
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When people ask me my salary I add 30k to whatever I’m making and I also explain that I’ll add a tax for any benefits that are lovely when it comes time to negotiate. Some recruiters think I’m an rear end in a top hat for the tax thing but I keep getting offers
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Mar 19, 2021 21:18
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