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SonicRulez posted:Though I do want to point to something said about Thanos specifically because I think it's important even outside the realm of fiction. If any of The Avengers actually tackle why erasing half of all life in the universe won't work the way Thanos thinks, they are immediately validating his way of thinking. They are meeting him at the debate table. They're going to battle with him in the marketplace of ideas. That would be wrong. They don't need to explain why specifically his methods won't solve a resource crisis across the galaxy. Killing 50% of all living creatures is wrong and that's genuinely the extent of the conversation that needs to be had. Sometimes you need to have genuine discussion with a person who has bad ideas or thoughts because it will help them gain understanding. Sometimes there's real debate to be had on right and wrong. But for me, any version of explaining Thanos' poor logic is meeting him half way and that's a terrible message to send. the characters are characters and don't have a moral responsibility to no-platform eco-fascists, because they're not responsible for what they do or say the writers are the ones who decide what their characters do and say, and they have already platformed Thanos by having two movies about his plan to balance the universe through genocide. in that sense they have already "validated" his way of thinking to be fair though Malthusianism is already in the political discourse - stupid ideas like "poor people have too many children" and "resource scarcity is when there's not enough to go around" were floating around out there before the MCU even existed. depiction isn't endorsement but a stronger rebuttal would always be welcome
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Mar 20, 2021 21:17
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Zzulu posted:It was worth killing 500.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 people so the whales could replenish This is universe wide. The universe in infinite. Half of infinity is still infinity. You're significantly low in your estimate. Also keep in mind half the whales were snapped away too so just cause they were in unusual places doesn't mean they were replenished. They could have been looking for food cause half the kelp got snapped away too.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:17
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A talking coyote posted:It wasn’t validating anything, he was trying to cheer up his friend who he just walked in on and was clearly not doing well. Uh huh. quote:Steve Rogers: You know, I saw a pod of whales when I was coming up the bridge.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:27
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McCloud posted:Uh huh. This isn’t the slam dunk you think it is. Are you high? https://youtu.be/3H-vvLB-LAQ Seems pretty clear cut he’s trying to cheer up his friend, but I guess you watched a different version where he’s secretly part of the black order. A talking coyote fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 21:32
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A talking coyote posted:This isn’t the slam dunk you think it is. Are you high? He mentions he saw whales. He then comments the water is cleaner and less fishing boats. The purpose of his little anecdote doesn't matter, the correlation between less population > less pollution > more whales is crystal clear. McCloud fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 21:38
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After the snap it cuts to Elaine driving a load of junk down the highway and she says "Wide lanes! This is great!" So it seems in support. But then Kramer is dusted and drops a load of turpentine on the road. Newman's mail truck gets hooked onto a piece of debris that came out of Elaine's car and when he scrapes over the turpentine his car is lit on fire, killing him slowly and painfully as he shouts "Oh the humanity!" So it does show both sides.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:39
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McCloud posted:He mentions he saw whales. He then comments the water is cleaner and less fishing boats. The purpose of his little anecdote doesn't matter, the correlation between less population > less pollution > more whales is crystal clear. There's no need to be snarky because you misinterpreted the scene Lol so you’ve graduated from saying “you just don’t get Snyder movies” to “you just don’t get movies in general” 
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Mar 20, 2021 21:43
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Zzulu posted:It was worth killing 500.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 people so the whales could replenish Can't wait for one of the flag smashers to wear a shirt saying "Thanos was right"
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Mar 20, 2021 21:43
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John Wick of Dogs posted:I think the second Martian Manhunter scene is good because it shows Batman's development where now even though he still has nightmares about evil aliens he puts those aside and is willing to take a leap of faith on a stranger. It would feel better I think if his nightmare wasn't so long. I did like Bruce just being kinda exasperated at him showing up, but frankly it was a clumsy scene that just... wasn't very good. As for Barry being creepy... he spent a very long time just staring at her before he went about moving her out of the way. I mean, I don't necessarily blame him because he's an awkward person (I'm kinda an awkward person too, I understand), but I was eventually just like "ok dude, you don't need to stare that long, just get her out of the way." It's kinda weird that the only identification of her as Iris West is in the credits, or that she's not really a character here like I was expecting. At least Jimmy Olsen got named. Phylodox posted:And I really didn’t care for the “I’m not broken” scene. After all the build-up about how the Mother Boxes would defend themselves and use all of your worst fears against you, the actual scene itself seemed weirdly perfunctory. In a bloated, overlong movie, that’s the one scene I wish had been considerably longer. My problem with that was his declaration of "I'm not alone" because I don't feel like there was enough on him and the rest of the League really understanding each other. It was four hours, we couldn't have had a small scene with Barry and Victor having a chat (I'm thinking while Barry chows down on some burgers or something, I don't think he puts anything into his mouth after he gets into the car with Bruce with a pizza and explains his metabolism is through the roof) about... I dunno, anything, to get a sense of developing camaraderie? I feel like there could have been a better sense of the team really coming together as a whole that didn't quite show through. I do like the scene where Cyborg adds the money to that lady's account, especially the bit where after adding the money he pauses and adds the original amount on top, but the bit immediately prior to that of "Son, I know you're hurting, but you can loving nuke the world if you want now" was an... interesting choice. Not a bad one, from what I've heard from people with scientists parents it doesn't strike me as being too absurd, really, but an interesting one.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:49
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Thanos definitely did love Gamora. But not in a good way. He wanted her to be like him, and raised her in a twisted way because Thanos himself is twisted. He even gave her boyfriend his seal of approval when Quill showed he was willing to kill Gamora.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:51
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A talking coyote posted:Lol so you’ve graduated from saying “you just don’t get Snyder movies” to “you just don’t get movies in general” A talking coyote posted:This isn’t the slam dunk you think it is. Are you high? 
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Mar 20, 2021 21:53
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catlord posted:I do like the scene where Cyborg adds the money to that lady's account I liked the idea behind it, but (as with so many other things) that scene went on way too long. I realized about five seconds into the sequence where they were going with it, but they just...kept showing Vic staring at scenes from this woman's life. To the point where it began to feel kind of creepy and voyeuristic. Like, twice during that scene I found myself saying "Yup...this is still going on. We're still watching this."
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Mar 20, 2021 21:55
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The real problem with the MM scene is that Martian Manhunter is for virgins. That's something Johns said, right?
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Mar 20, 2021 21:55
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Yup you got me, the movie is completely validating Thanos because Steve tried to cheer up his friend by being optimistic about having seen whales in the river. Why did the avengers even bother bringing everyone back if the movie made Thanos so undeniably right?
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Mar 20, 2021 22:03
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McCloud posted:Uh huh. Which is immediately rejected by the friend, which makes him apologize for even trying to do some sort of justification. "Sorry. Force of habit." Because, as we saw in a previous scene, he's been leading therapy groups, trying to get very depressed people to keep having the will to go on. That hardly seems like the movie is trying to justify what happened, much less approve of it.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:11
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Vince MechMahon posted:The real problem with the MM scene is that Martian Manhunter is for virgins. That's something Johns said, right? No that was David Goyer. site posted:Can't wait for one of the flag smashers to wear a shirt saying "Thanos was right" I have a feeling this is exactly right. Zemo and The Flag Smashers are going to be very Pro Thanos.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:12
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X-O posted:No that was David Goyer. Got my assholes mixed up.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:19
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might want to get that checked out
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Mar 20, 2021 22:20
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A talking coyote posted:Yup you got me, the movie is completely validating Thanos because Steve tried to cheer up his friend by being optimistic about having seen whales in the river. Why did the avengers even bother bringing everyone back if the movie made Thanos so undeniably right? The problem isn't that the movie believes that Thanos is morally correct, but that it validates Thanos' belief that less population means more resources and less pollution.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:22
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McCloud posted:He mentions he saw whales. He then comments the water is cleaner and less fishing boats. The purpose of his little anecdote doesn't matter, the correlation between less population > less pollution > more whales is crystal clear. Half their food is gone. They're leaving the usual migration routes. When species do stuff like that it's a sign that something's wrong.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:22
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Phylodox posted:I liked the idea behind it, but (as with so many other things) that scene went on way too long. I realized about five seconds into the sequence where they were going with it, but they just...kept showing Vic staring at scenes from this woman's life. To the point where it began to feel kind of creepy and voyeuristic. Like, twice during that scene I found myself saying "Yup...this is still going on. We're still watching this." Yeah because the film is zack Snyder’s justice league. He can make poo poo as long or as short as he pleases and no one can and should tell him what to do in this instance. I was down for every single second of cyborg because of the poo poo Ray Fisher had to deal with.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:22
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Vince MechMahon posted:This is universe wide. The universe in infinite. Half of infinity is still infinity. You're significantly low in your estimate. Also keep in mind half the whales were snapped away too so just cause they were in unusual places doesn't mean they were replenished. They could have been looking for food cause half the kelp got snapped away too. Whales don't eat kelp!
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Mar 20, 2021 22:26
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no, but they do eat krill, plankton, and fish, which are all forms of life
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Mar 20, 2021 22:28
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Roth posted:The problem isn't that the movie believes that Thanos is morally correct, but that it validates Thanos' belief that less population means more resources and less pollution. It doesn’t though, it’s one anecdote in a movie that’s overwhelmingly negative about the effects the snap had on the universe.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:31
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Loling that in their attempt to show that whales would go to the Hudson because there's now cleaner water, the Russos apparently don't understand marine biology. Somebody fire these men for that blunder
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Mar 20, 2021 22:32
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Please don't engage with McCloud. They are the least good faith poster in this thread.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:34
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Lt. Danger posted:the characters are characters and don't have a moral responsibility to no-platform eco-fascists, because they're not responsible for what they do or say Thanos is the designated villain and is killed multiple times across the two films. That is the film's way of conveying that his ideas are wrong to me. That's the rebuttal. His pitch starts with "We kill 50% of all people" and our heroes say "Ok, stop there. No." Further elaboration just comes across to me like completely missing the point.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:35
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Vince MechMahon posted:Got my assholes mixed up. He's also the one that claimed She-Hulk, who notably is Bruce Banner's cousin, was just a creation to give Hulk someone to gently caress. Great guy.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:37
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This argument is such a stretch. In a movie that goes out of its way to show how despondent and broken everyone and everything has become, one mildly good side effect (that is immediately rebuffed) doesn’t in any way justify a massively horrific act. This seems like a deliberately bad reading of the film.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:38
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Phylodox posted:This argument is such a stretch. In a movie that goes out of its way to show how despondent and broken everyone and everything has become, one mildly good side effect (that is immediately rebuffed) doesn’t in any way justify a massively horrific act. This seems like a deliberately bad reading of the film. It's almost like the person making that point is the same person that always does that poo poo in this thread and that's why this thread should just not engage with that person anymore.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:41
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My bad.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:43
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Didn't some NY goon say something like making life around the city wasn't *that* rare (just unlikely due to commerce lanes and lack of food)?? I take the point about Flash and Cyborg developing a friendship. I think they have a moment where they speak a bit over the grave-robbing. And Flash is right on him when he's injured after his father's bit with the box. And the fist-pound at the end probably is due to their part of the plan succeeding. Phylodox posted:I liked the idea behind it, but (as with so many other things) that scene went on way too long. There's absolutely nothing to stop Cy from doing a panopticon of streamed financial, personal, and private data. And instead of just wallowing in the misery of others or the unlimited reach he has, he finds a way to make someone's day better.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:51
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The Snyder Cut is much better than the Whedon version. I dunno why in the world you cut that Flash scene of him going back in time. Movie was too long and meandering though. It needed some cuts, and a lot of the effects looked like they were budget CGI. Also most of the inclusion of the Manhunter was baffling. I guess it's okay at the end, but him being Martha did nothing for that scene. His design wasn't great, either. And the whole Knightmare sequence needed to be cut. I don't need five minutes of Leto Joker poorly greenscreened who obviously wasn't even on the same set as Affleck. And why does Bruce have extremely prophetic dreams anyway? I liked it much better than BvS, but I think Man of Steel is still the best of the three. I think this needed another pass at the script and some fat trimmed to really hit the mark, but it's worth a watch.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:52
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Codependent Poster posted:And why does Bruce have extremely prophetic dreams anyway? or something.
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Mar 20, 2021 22:55
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SonicRulez posted:I think others have explained why Killmonger and Thanos have a little more nuance than they got credit for in that post. I want it made clear that I don't think anybody has to like those characters. Nobody has to like any MCU film or character. I respect opinions for what they are. I just got rubbed the wrong way by Thanos with no comment and Killmonger explicitly being called on for the color of his skin and apparently not telling a story that suited OP. Just talk about the Justice League movie you really like. No snide comments necessary. Eh, I'm black and I'm fine with that post. Killmonger *should* have been the hero of the film, and instead, they made him stupider with a dumb plan and kill his girlfriend to become generic evil. If anything, the movie should have been BP wanting actual revolution and his counter being a contender that's like "let's build community centers instead" because he's working with Klaw.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:01
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Vince MechMahon posted:It's this. Love isn't always good and hate isn't always bad. Love can be just as damaging and horrific coming from a lovely person as hate. It helps that Gamora's reaction to it isn't happiness at finding out her lovely, abusive dad loved her all along, it's to spit on his name and tell Thanos his twisted form of love doesn't count. Thanos not listening to her at all and still getting the Soul Gem out of it doesn't validate his love for her, it just highlights how much of a selfish bastard he is.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:03
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amigolupus posted:It helps that Gamora's reaction to it isn't happiness at finding out her lovely, abusive dad loved her all along, it's to spit on his name and tell Thanos his twisted form of love doesn't count. Thanos not listening to her at all and still getting the Soul Gem out of it doesn't validate his love for her, it just highlights how much of a selfish bastard he is. Also, you know, that he murders her. Contrast that vs Widow/Hawkeye who fight each other to keep the other from sacrificing themselves. Thanos might love Gamora in some self absorbed way that passes the soul stone's criteria but it doesn't change the fact that every thing he does for 2 films shows him to be a genocidal, psychotic, narcissistic monster. Including murdering the one person he might love. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Mar 20, 2021 |
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Mar 20, 2021 23:06
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CelticPredator posted:Yeah because the film is zack Snyder’s justice league. He can make poo poo as long or as short as he pleases and no one can and should tell him what to do in this instance.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:21
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SonicRulez posted:Thanos is the designated villain I don't think this line of reasoning is necessarily true. villains and antagonists aren't always incorrect by default, often there is some truth or value to their stance that must be synthesised by the hero - even within the MCU alone you have Killmonger or Civil War Tony, never mind anything else. teasing out what bits of e.g. Killmonger's radical pan-Africanism are worth keeping and what bits aren't requires this further elaboration imagine: Thanos says to the heroes that he must destroy half of all life because the Earth is flat. all the heroes say, "you can't kill half of all life because the Earth is flat, that's immoral!" maybe Steve says to Natasha, "at least with half of all boats gone there's less risk of someone falling off the edge of the world" or something. wouldn't you be alarmed? wouldn't you think hey, someone missed a step here? in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, is the Earth actually flat? was Thanos being literal when he talked about "balance"? are the writers actual Flat-Earthers or something? compare, I don't know, Winter Soldier, where (secret double-Nazis and questionable sympathy for security organisations aside) Captain America does provide an explicit rebuttal to safety-over-freedom rhetoric
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Mar 20, 2021 23:23
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I see your version of a terrible scene, but I'm not seeing the good version that was missed. I don't know what Captain America could say to Thanos past "You cannot murder half of our universe" that would be equal to the first part of that sentence. Or worth shouting before Thor decapitates him. In Winter Soldier Cap is explicitly not speaking to the Nazis that have taken over. He's calling on the others to be brave and do the right thing. It's a beautiful scene. He can't do that when there are no Thanos sympathizers and it would be absurd for him to deliver it to the Mad Titan himself. Take from Endgame what you will, I just cannot see why a film inherently needs its characters to look down the camera and say "This person is wrong" every single time. Darko posted:Eh, I'm black and I'm fine with that post. Killmonger *should* have been the hero of the film, and instead, they made him stupider with a dumb plan and kill his girlfriend to become generic evil. If anything, the movie should have been BP wanting actual revolution and his counter being a contender that's like "let's build community centers instead" because he's working with Klaw. That's fine. I'm Black and I wasn't. Proof that we are not a monopoly indeed.
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Mar 20, 2021 23:35
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