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Barry Convex posted:I swear to god that when I saw Infinity War on opening night in 2018, a bunch of people in front of me cheered when Falcon got dusted. can't say I share the sentiment but it's hard to forget that Oh my god.  (In my screening people was sad. Then on endgame everyone was losing their poo poo with the "on your left" line, also the whole place went absolute nuts and screaming when Black Panther showed up).
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Mar 21, 2021 03:18
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Desperado Bones posted:Oh my god. My Infinity War screening had two 12 year old kids right next to us loudly talking through the entire dusting scene. "What's happening" "did he snap" "I think they're dying" "Why are they dying" "I think Thanos used the stones". Completely ruined the moment. My Endgame screening was similar to yours though. People lost their poo poo at the "on your left" sequence and it ruled
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Mar 21, 2021 03:34
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Open Source Idiom posted:How can anyone engage you in a good faith argument if you're going to assume they're erasing the notion of racism for disagreeing with you. if the statement is "racism exists" and the response is "I don't believe this is plausible" I'm not entirely sure what other conclusion you'd like me to reach
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Mar 21, 2021 03:50
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In America, just being black and rich doesn’t guarantee trust or dignity. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nfl-s-michael-bennett-says-police-threatened-blow-my-f-n799276 By putting the falcon in this scenario, we show that it could happen to literally anyone, no matter how famous, moral or powerful they are. This is the way many, many people experience structural racism. What’s the falcon gonna say, “My sister who can’t make money was denied a bank loan?” We have absolutely nothing to show that he’s active on social media, or that using his clout that way wouldn’t endanger his current standing with military. lovely people are racist, even if it doesn’t benefit them, even if they can get away with it. Racism isn’t a cost benefit analysis. It’s not even done by “bad people*“ but by everyone at various levels of awareness. *The media‘s portrayal of racism as done by exclusively rich dicks or hicks lets many people off for not addressing their own prejudices. Golden Bee fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 03:53
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Barry Convex posted:I swear to god that when I saw Infinity War on opening night in 2018, a bunch of people in front of me cheered when Falcon got dusted. can't say I share the sentiment but it's hard to forget that Wait... really? I’m guessing you are in the American south. Texas? Why would anyone hate the Falcon? Dude is cool and devotes his life to helping people. Some people might say boring but I can’t imagine anyone cheering him dying. Falcon is cool and was a decent first episode. Looking forward to more. Bucky parts in therapy really hit hard and should be a good ride.
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Mar 21, 2021 03:58
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I remember infinity war ended with a lot of solemnity in my theater. And then everyone went wild during the endgame finale.
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Mar 21, 2021 03:59
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Yeah I'm seriously struggling to figure out why anyone would be excited that Falcon died other than racism, I guess
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Mar 21, 2021 04:03
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Bleck posted:if the statement is "racism exists" and the response is "I don't believe this is plausible" I'm not entirely sure what other conclusion you'd like me to reach I think you're mischaracterising people's arguments in ways that aren't accurate, but, like, I get it? It's loving frustrating to see this kind of gesture -- and it's Disney doing this, so it can only ever be a gesture -- be undermined in the discourse like this. But, at the same time, it's a difficult gesture to engage with because of all the sci-fi gubbins, and the loose way the setting has established its world building, and the way the scene doesn't really examine the privilege of the characters involved, blah blah blah. It just doesn't work for me. But I think your assessment of other posters is based on a false premise. I don't find the scene plausible, but do you really think I believe racism is over?
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Mar 21, 2021 04:07
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Just to be clear, the show is not saying that Sam is "poor." It's not saying that he has no income. It's not saying that he couldn't get money if he wanted to. The conflict here is that, in the aftermath of a crisis, the bank isn't willing to lend bailout money to a black-owned business on a complete technicality. That's it. And I find that a pretty believable situation. On a sidenote, the very first thing they teach you in a business school is to not get into business with your family members.  This is the sort of thing that breaks families apart, and you bet that this is the norm instead of the exception.I mean, if my brother was famous, I'd certainly tell him to whore himself out to whatever means necessary to save my failing businesses, but Sam wasn't even comfortable doing that for himself and it's clear Sarah would rather sink the boat by her own hands than to resort to that. Yes, this might be a case where the problem could be solved if the characters would adjust their attitudes about the problem, but if Sam and Sarah could adjust their attitudes about the problem, then they wouldn't be Sam and Sarah in the first place. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 04:08
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Open Source Idiom posted:But I think your assessment of other posters is based on a false premise. I don't find the scene plausible, but do you really think I believe racism is over? I don't know what you believe but it is difficult to see people go out of their way to [make up unreasonable assumptions about how wealth works in the real world or in this fake one so as to try and avoid the conclusion that, hey, racism exists and is impacting these black people] and not immediately reach the conclusion that this is just another one of many constant and consistent attempts to denigrate any and all art that acknowledges that racism exists via the most inane and asinine methods possible the show is even very clearly carefully written to pre-emptively address everyone's assumptions about how wealth must work and how it totally excuses (or at least obscures) the racism that is obviously at play, and now people are just saying "no that can't be real, that's impossible" "surely the bank would give sam, a black convicted felon in the united states of america, a loan because he is famous" Bleck fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 04:27
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stev posted:Huh, I'm rewatching Winter Soldier and I totally forgot that the Falcon suit was just what Sam was issued in the military rather than something inherently special to him. And he just still has access to it apparently. And no one else has one for reasons. Maybe the Falcon suit was too expensive or difficult to maintain? Maybe Sam was the only one who was able to use the suit to it full potential? The General/senator/contractor that was advocating for the suit went away? A couple of different ways to hand wave it. Like in Batman Begins where Lucius Fox explains to Bruce that the suit of body armor they are using for the bat suit worked really well but cost over ten times normal body armor, which was too high for the military.
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Mar 21, 2021 04:32
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While watching the open fight sequence of Falcon jet packing around and shooting mooks with wrist mounted grappling hooks and magnetic explosives I realized how much of a The Mandalorian fix I needed. Good times. Also, Sam drives an early 2000s Dodge Ram pickup. It’s not beat to poo poo or rusted out, but I think that’s a “show, don’t tell” of his current financial situation. I’m from rural Kentucky and I instinctually equate those bulbous old Rams with “not doing great”. This is indicative of his wealth, but seeing Sam iron his own shirt in a hotel room immediately grounded the character for me. Small details.
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Mar 21, 2021 04:49
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DogsInSpace! posted:Wait... really? I’m guessing you are in the American south. Texas? Why would anyone hate the Falcon? Dude is cool and devotes his life to helping people. Some people might say boring but I can’t imagine anyone cheering him dying. FlamingLiberal posted:Yeah I'm seriously struggling to figure out why anyone would be excited that Falcon died other than racism, I guess this was in Brooklyn, fwiw. My memory may have inflated the number of people who were cheering but it definitely happened. it was weird!
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Mar 21, 2021 05:02
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Pretty good first episode. But what really nailed it for me was the last scene. Sure, I could come to care about these characters more and the show is putting in the work of developing them, but now I also have a smarmy dude taking up the mantle of Captain America who is definitely gonna get punched before this show is over.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:06
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Bleck posted:this is just another one of many constant and consistent attempts to denigrate any and all art that acknowledges that racism exists via the most inane and asinine methods possible You are not representing what people are saying - it is admirable to communicate some of the racial themes of this character, but it's disingenuous to do that via the mechanism of wealth insecurity for a character who by all rights should have no problem accessing money. Sam Wilson says that he's been working for the government for six months, and he's shown as being recognisable from Tunisia to the US. The loan he wants is as an alternative to selling a boat (which doesn't run when Sam tries to run it) and also to cover the cost of a home kitchen renovation. The scale of the money he needs and what he should be able to access as a global superstar is incongruous. Even if traditional sources of credit were overtly white supremacist, Sam shouldn't need to access them at all.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:11
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Ccs posted:Pretty good first episode. But what really nailed it for me was the last scene. Sure, I could come to care about these characters more and the show is putting in the work of developing them, but now I also have a smarmy dude taking up the mantle of Captain America who is definitely gonna get punched before this show is over. They had to have strategically cast Wyatt Russell in this show because of his punchable face and history of playing annoying characters that the audience wants to see punched.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:14
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Trying to make a character more relatable by adding financial hardships when it’s not clear why they don’t have money is bad writing, IMO. It literally doesn’t make sense that one of the Avengers wouldn’t have all the money they needed. Like I know a bunch of you insist that Tony would make them all sleep on the street because he’s rich and therefore greedy, but he’s constantly shown to be giving people new weapons and gear and toys all the time, it just doesn’t make sense for him to not keep his team fully loaded and comfortable. The Tony Stark we get in these movies would be making sure everyone got paid, that is literally the person we’ve been shown, not the imaginary Elon Musk epic bacon Reddit billionaire you’ve all made up in your heads to be wokely mad at.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:18
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So, Falcon's finances are this show's "what is grief but love persevering?"
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Mar 21, 2021 05:21
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Bust Rodd posted:Trying to make a character more relatable by adding financial hardships when it’s not clear why they don’t have money is bad writing, IMO. It literally doesn’t make sense that one of the Avengers wouldn’t have all the money they needed. They specifically say that he has income, but his sister doesn't want it. The bank acknowledges he has income, but since he has been gone for 5 years and only snapped back 3 months ago that he didn't have a long enough history (also the obvious systemic racism allusions). He isn't in crippling poverty. The issue is that his sister went into massive debt over the last 5 years, doesn't want his charity, and although he has a good source of income, he has only existed on earth for the last 3 months.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:22
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Ravel posted:You are not representing what people are saying - it is admirable to communicate some of the racial themes of this character, but it's disingenuous to do that via the mechanism of wealth insecurity for a character who by all rights should have no problem accessing money. Sam Wilson says that he's been working for the government for six months, and he's shown as being recognisable from Tunisia to the US. The loan he wants is as an alternative to selling a boat (which doesn't run when Sam tries to run it) and also to cover the cost of a home kitchen renovation. The scale of the money he needs and what he should be able to access as a global superstar is incongruous. Even if traditional sources of credit were overtly white supremacist, Sam shouldn't need to access them at all. Omg. This is "I don't think Stormfront is a nazi." all over again. Like, I thought it was hamfisted they literally had to find a treasure chest of nazi memorabilia and a literal picture of Hitler attending her wedding, but apparently any text other than the most obvious text is just gonna fly over people's heads when it comes to racism.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:23
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They specifically say that he has income, but his sister doesn't want it. This also doesn’t make sense. One of the most connected military contractors in the world, and personal friends with the worlds richest tech billionaires and also the king of richest country in the world, doesn’t have ONE friend in the finance industry? He can’t ask anyone to make a phone call on his behalf? It’s just like the story is trying to set up a world famous superhero as this underdog to make them more relatable but the “relatable” position they’ve written for him (racist bank won’t give his family a loan) doesn’t make sense within the context of the show or the character. Also The Blip thing is super stupid, again, because Falcon’s status as an Avenger and elite military operator should be be hugely validating for things like a goddam credit score.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:29
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Thundercracker posted:Omg. This is "I don't think Stormfront is a nazi." all over again. Like, I thought it was hamfisted they literally had to find a treasure chest of nazi memorabilia and a literal picture of Hitler attending her wedding, but apparently any text other than the most obvious text is just gonna fly over people's heads when it comes to racism. Do you think there are posters here who don't think this scene is about racism?
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Mar 21, 2021 05:29
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Thundercracker posted:apparently any text other than the most obvious text is just gonna fly over people's heads when it comes to racism. Nobody is disputing the racism. Sam experiences discrimination as a black man. Sam enjoys privilege as a globally recognisable superstar Avenger and one of the most famous people on Earth. The latter completely dominates his ability to raise 20k dollars without needing to go to a bank in the first place.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:30
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Thundercracker posted:Omg. This is "I don't think Stormfront is a nazi." all over again. Like, I thought it was hamfisted they literally had to find a treasure chest of nazi memorabilia and a literal picture of Hitler attending her wedding, but apparently any text other than the most obvious text is just gonna fly over people's heads when it comes to racism. It’s kind of a mirror of addressing racism that people can’t see something in front of them even when it’s explained over and over and over
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Mar 21, 2021 05:30
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Ravel posted:Nobody is disputing the racism. Sam experiences discrimination as a black man. Sam enjoys privilege as a globally recognisable superstar Avenger and one of the most famous people on Earth. The latter completely dominates his ability to raise 20k dollars without needing to go to a bank in the first place. Which does nothing for the situation where his sister does not want his money or privilege so they go to a bank that denies them a loan. Because it doesn’t my matter how much money or influence Sam has in the face of systematic racism. It’s followed by the American military literally walking all over his ideals and gesture by using the shield he gave to a museum for their new super soldier, who is some white guy with a huge jaw.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:33
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Ravel posted:Nobody is disputing the racism. Sam experiences discrimination as a black man. Sam enjoys privilege as a globally recognisable superstar Avenger and one of the most famous people on Earth. The latter completely dominates his ability to raise 20k dollars without needing to go to a bank in the first place. Yeah I can’t emphasize this enough. It’s not that we don’t understand or recognize racism, it’s that fame and celebrity of a certain status invalidate the specific type of racism being displayed here, to a degree that it feels extremely contrived, and it didn’t have to be.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:34
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Ravel posted:Sam enjoys privilege as a globally recognisable superstar Avenger and one of the most famous people on Earth. I do not know how else it needs to be explained to you that fame does not render black people invulnerable to racism in the United States of America people here keep saying "I don't think anyone is denying racism" in between constant repeated denials of a very basic and observable facet of racism
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Mar 21, 2021 05:35
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Bust Rodd posted:Yeah I can’t emphasize this enough. It’s not that we don’t understand or recognize racism, it’s that fame and celebrity of a certain status invalidate the specific type of racism being displayed here, to a degree that it feels extremely contrived, and it didn’t have to be. Exactly. If the scene had been about the Falcon's anonymous sister trying to secure this loan, and not the Falcon, no one would be having this conversation!
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Mar 21, 2021 05:35
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Bust Rodd posted:Yeah I can’t emphasize this enough. It’s not that we don’t understand or recognize racism, it’s that fame and celebrity of a certain status invalidate the specific type of racism being displayed here, to a degree that it feels extremely contrived, and it didn’t have to be. The show has them go through how he has money, a job, is world famous, and still the bank denies him a loan on a technicality because racism (even systematic racism) isn’t logical, that’s the point. Open Source Idiom posted:Exactly. If the scene had been about the Falcon's anonymous sister trying to secure this loan, and not the Falcon, no one would be having this conversation! I mean she is, he’s co-signing as insurance for the bank that the loan will be paid back, either by her income or his existing money, they deny the loan anyway.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:36
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Bleck posted:I do not know how else it needs to be explained to you that fame does not render black people invulnerable to racism in the United States of America You’re basically arguing that Micheal Jackson or Beyoncé or Lebron James couldn’t get a bank loan if they wanted one, which is nonsense.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:37
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What in this episode shows that sam has access to fame or wealth similar to the most famous Black people you can think of?
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Mar 21, 2021 05:40
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Bleck posted:I do not know how else it needs to be explained to you that fame does not render black people invulnerable to racism in the United States of America I think the problem here is that Sam's not just famous, he's a superhero; that's not a role that has a one-to-one correlation with the real world, and therefore different people are going to interpret the level of social power he has differently. It's like Barrack Obama: Alien Killer turned up at my local Bank of America. To me, it makes no sense that a bank would even see him in an open room, let alone deny him a loan. But I guess you see it differently?
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Mar 21, 2021 05:41
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I did laugh at "Oh no! The one thing the US military can never do. Violate Libyan airspace" 
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Mar 21, 2021 05:42
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I’m beginning to believe that a lot you would show your buttholes on OnlyFans while doing ads for medicinal iodine if given the chance. Sam ain’t tacky. Integrity leaves you broke, sometimes.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:42
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The bank is not necessary at all for Sam to access credit. Even if all the banking institutions were overtly white supremacist, Sam can give one speech at a gala and earn ten times the amount that his kitchen renovation would cost He could do a community fundraiser and earn that much. That's the incongruity.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:42
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Is he recognised by Tunisian civilians, or fellow military operators. Because if it’s the second then we’ll, that’s not quite the same thing as being famous, so much as being a known operative by other operatives. I actually cannot immediately recall. I mean, he has to literally prompt the bank employee on him being a hero. He’s not as famous as those people locally, which in of itself is commentary on the structural racism of America. One of their homegrown heroes is having trouble getting a loan even with his world saving, whilst his nominal employees decide to effectively replace him as the chosen legacy of Captain America. Ravel posted:The bank is not necessary at all for Sam to access credit. Even if all the banking institutions were overtly white supremacist, Sam can give one speech at a gala and earn ten times the amount that his kitchen renovation would cost He could do a community fundraiser and earn that much. That's the incongruity. That’s nice, Sam’s ability to access money isn’t the problem, because his sister does not want his money. Hence going to get a loan, where he’s meant to be the assurance it will be paid back because his sister is in debt.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:43
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i love you
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Mar 21, 2021 05:43
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Golden Bee posted:What in this episode shows that sam has access to fame or wealth similar to the most famous Black people you can think of? What in the entire MCU leads you to believe that they aren’t world famous celebrities on a level we don’t have in the real world? Do you really think actual real life superheroes wouldn’t be as famous as movie stars and athletes? Think about how famous they are on OUR earth, where they aren’t even real! You honestly think these people would have gigantic, obsessive cult like fan followings if they really existed? I guess this is the crux of the argument but all the indications are that these are people who are on the news every day, doing incredible, historic things. The idea that they wouldn’t be famous seems incongruous with absolutely everything we’ve been shown, IMO
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Mar 21, 2021 05:44
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Again, conversations in this thread would go a lot smoother if people talked about what's in the show instead of what they want the show to say in order to support their positions. Sarah does not want pity money from Sam. She would rather the business go under than to take charity in that way. That was part of their deal. Sam is the one who convinced her that they could revitalize the business by taking a loan from the bank, which does not technically count as him as swooping in and giving her the money that he gets from saving the world, which is his own completely separate venture that she does not want to benefit from. The bank denied them the loan on a silly technicality. But dark-skinned people being denied opportunities in the system through silly technicalities all the time is the whole point. Fame does not protect you from institutional, systemic racism and people who keep saying "Sure it would!" are denying the presence of institutional racism in the same breath that they keep saying they aren't.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:45
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Lord_Magmar posted:Is he recognised by Tunisian civilians, or fellow military operators. Because if it’s the second then we’ll, that’s not quite the same thing as being famous, so much as being a known operative by other operatives. I actually cannot immediately recall. It's a civilian family.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:46
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