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It's kinda depressing that Watson being an Afghanistan veteran hasn't dated the character at all.
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Mar 21, 2021 19:57
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One of the few well-done spots of BBC Sherlock. Opening with Watson's PTSD was a very, very smart move on both a textual and metatextual level.
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Mar 21, 2021 19:58
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Ghost Leviathan posted:A big part of the original Holmes stories is that Watson is a very intelligent person and a professional doctor who Holmes keeps on hand because of his medical knowledge, with the common sense and people skills being a bonus. The ideal narrator for a super-intelligent character is almost as smart as they are, and has genuine skills to be of use to them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYosZDMIpY4
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Mar 21, 2021 20:26
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Poirot doesn't have any meaningful relationships with women because the stories aren't really about Poirot. He's just a pile of eccentricities that serves as a familiar base to readers. The majority of the content isn't any different than Agatha Christie's other novels, which are typically easy going, pleasant reads. The longer Sherlock Holmes stories suffer because everything that isn't the setup and resolution of the mystery are not as well done.
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Mar 21, 2021 20:37
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The Russian holmes series is surprisingly good.
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Mar 21, 2021 20:43
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Tunicate posted:The Russian holmes series is surprisingly good. I would read a story where it turns out the guy in a bathtub with two bullet holes in the back of his head really was suicide.
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Mar 21, 2021 20:51
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Fools Infinite posted:Poirot doesn't have any meaningful relationships with women because the stories aren't really about Poirot. He's just a pile of eccentricities that serves as a familiar base to readers. The majority of the content isn't any different than Agatha Christie's other novels, which are typically easy going, pleasant reads. The longer Sherlock Holmes stories suffer because everything that isn't the setup and resolution of the mystery are not as well done. Yes, I was half-joking and probably Christie overlooked the fact, and/or designed Poirot as "do not define anything too specific" beyond the upper class adjacent famous ex-police chief. He did run the Brussels police force at one point, and made a point in his last case about taking life, if it is the only thing he can do to prevent murder from taking a place. But it did not stop Agatha from making him a sort of pervert in that particular case by the standards of the time, considering the capability to observe young women's knees in detail, work in a women-only boarding school, and be able to conclusively deduct things from them. It could sort-of-work if the tennis outfits were above-knee length but they didn't do even that in the TV version IIRC, so basically it made Poirot look like a suspected peeping Tom.
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Mar 21, 2021 20:58
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The thing about Poirot as written is that he is old. In his very first appearance he is supposed to be a retired belgian police officer. Christie herself said it was a major mistake making him so old. It limits him so much - either he's a super creepy old man or he's a grandpa figure to any young people he meets. The knees thing strikes me as something Christie herself noticed as a mother of daughters (which isn't even true but anyway) and gifted to Poirot without considering how weird it would sound coming from an elderly bachelor. Edit: Christie herself grew to loathe Poirot - she hated his egotism, smugness and general character. She actually liked Miss Marple, but said she was a much harder character to introduce into situations because she was a quiet lady in a country village, whereas Poirot was a professional. Pookah has a new favorite as of 21:12 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 21:08
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how about miss marple, she’s pretty cool
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Mar 21, 2021 21:10
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I would read a story where it turns out the guy in a bathtub with two bullet holes in the back of his head really was suicide. "So what you're saying, Holmes, is that Masaryk closed the window after himself when he jumped out of it?" "Sure Watson. It happens all the time...if you know what I mean."
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Mar 21, 2021 21:17
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On the subject of Agatha Christie books that didn't age well: Taken at the Flood(aka There is a Tide...) has a romance subplot where: a young woman just discharged, IIRC, from the WAVES or being a nurse or something similar (it's been years since I read the book) after WWII returns to her rural village, where she finds herself restless and longing for something more. Said village includes a dude who's been pursuing her for marriage since they were young and who she's never really felt any romantic inclination towards (there might also have been something about her doubting the sincerity of his feelings?); she keeps telling him this but in true misogynist fashion, he refuses to take no for an answer. She debates about leaving the village to iirc, take up nursing work in South Africa, but is hesitant to take such a huge life changing step. Meanwhile the dude continues to pester her, to the point where she thinks about accepting his proposal because she's so desperate for a life change but she knows she doesn't feel that way about him and never will. I think she might also have a romantic thing with the guy who ends up being the murderer? So she's also got that. Poirot arrives in the village in pursuit of crime and she tells him about her problems. He very kindly and sensibly advises her to truly figure out what she wants out of life, but in his opinion, she should opt for adventure and the nursing job. She continues to dither. Then, towards the end of the book, something happens that makes Jerk #1 furious with her, to the point that he actually attempts to strangle her out of rage. Does she call the loving cops on him and get him arrested for assault and attempted murder? She does not. Instead, she decides that his rage-induced strangulation proves that he really did love her all along and decides to loving marry him. And does. The TV adaptation changed that poo poo and rightfully so: instead her last scene is her leaving on a plane to start a new life elsewhere.
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Mar 22, 2021 01:07
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I would read a story where it turns out the guy in a bathtub with two bullet holes in the back of his head really was suicide. There is actually is a case where watson shoots a guy and it gets officially reported as a suicide but that wasn't the murder holmes was called in on.
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Mar 22, 2021 01:41
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Tunicate posted:The Russian holmes series is surprisingly good. Which one? The one that came from the Soviet era or another one?
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Mar 22, 2021 10:30
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Best Holmes is Secret of the Pyramid, or at least my decade-old memories of it.
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Mar 22, 2021 11:05
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Best Holmes is In the 22nd Century
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Mar 22, 2021 13:17
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I would read a story where it turns out the guy in a bathtub with two bullet holes in the back of his head really was suicide. I think there was an episode of Forensic Files along these lines. Cheap, poorly maintained handgun was the culprit. I think. Could be remembering incorrectly.
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Mar 22, 2021 13:36
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mind the walrus posted:One of the few well-done spots of BBC Sherlock. Opening with Watson's PTSD was a very, very smart move on both a textual and metatextual level. My personal favourite Holmes adaptation will always be the BBC radio plays with Clive Merrison and Micheal Williams and iirc that version of A Study in Scarlet begins with Watson being injured in Afghanistan too. That's one of the few adaptations I can think of that takes the idea Watson is disabled and traumatised and makes it a believable ongoing thread that's relevant to his character. Honestly, they do a great job throughout the series of building the characters with the voice acting and added vignettes, while still primarily being a very straightforward set of adaptations. The fact that both the main characters are clearly but non-explicitly shown as dealing with mental health problems grounds their friendship without making it maudlin or exploitative. Holmes can be an obsessive, impulsive dick but is still mostly likeable and when he hurts Watson's feelings he's shown as genuinely, if clumsily, contrite. And Watson reacts to Holmes' more worrying behaviour - like shooting up his own wall, or shooting up cocaine - with a very relatable mix of worry, anger and sometimes resigned fondness that's surprisingly realistic to how it feels to have a very dear friend who does impulsive self-destructive things when they're not feeling well. Also they treat the Irene Adler thing straight up as presented in the text, which is nice because I think the character who actually appears in the story - the scandalous woman who outsmarts Holmes and gets to marry her paramour and keep her collateral - is more interesting than the "romantic heroine" or "ambiguously villainous sexy lady" she ends up getting adapted as.
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Mar 22, 2021 15:11
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The already mentioned Hbomberguy's essay has a lenghty section on how Moffat was able to turn a very positive representation (for the time) female character - smart enough to fool Holmes and to earn his respect - into...a dominatrix that is outsmarted by Holmes, needs to be saved by him and also is in love with him. Moffat's Moriarty, while being somewhat closer to the original (IE: his role being Holmes brilliant enemy), is culpable of every possible bad writing stereotype, the worst one being he's a living mystery box with no pay-off, slathered over every single seemingly unrelated thing happening in the world. In fact, Moffat's main issue as a writer is that all of his worlds gravitate 100% around the protagonist, and everything everyone does is either in function or to oppose them. In Sherlock's case, this is made even worse by the reshoots that turn completely unrelated episodes into the big overarching MORIARTY HAS AN EVIL PLAN plot that ultimately goes nowhere. Speaking of Adler and Moriarty at large, one issue both characters share is that they are 1-off characters in the originals and are instead treated as recurring characters in most adaptations. They have the Boba Fett syndrome of being too cool not to remember while actually having very little "screen time" and development in the original material. E: I want to jump on the David Suchet  cause he's such an awesome Poirot he puts every other single actor portraying the belgian detective into a bad light simply by existing.
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Mar 22, 2021 15:40
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The most puzzling thing about the Moffat-Gatiss collaborations to me is the weird contempt that comes through for the original material. Sherlock, Jekyll, Dracula - I think they genuinely do love the source material, at least I know Gatiss does and i've no real reason to think Moffat doesn't. But then why mock it so ceaselessly? Why make spiteful, contemptuous references to the original stories? Why be cruel to people who are picking up what you're putting down? I mean poo poo, you don't *have* to write TV shows, just don't if it makes you so cross. I dunno.
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Mar 22, 2021 15:51
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HopperUK posted:The most puzzling thing about the Moffat-Gatiss collaborations to me is the weird contempt that comes through for the original material. Sherlock, Jekyll, Dracula - I think they genuinely do love the source material, at least I know Gatiss does and i've no real reason to think Moffat doesn't. But then why mock it so ceaselessly? Why make spiteful, contemptuous references to the original stories? Why be cruel to people who are picking up what you're putting down? I mean poo poo, you don't *have* to write TV shows, just don't if it makes you so cross. I dunno. Insecurity, at a guess. Irony poisoning is a big big thing these days, you can't be caught being completely sincere
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Mar 22, 2021 15:55
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HopperUK posted:The most puzzling thing about the Moffat-Gatiss collaborations to me is the weird contempt that comes through for the original material. Sherlock, Jekyll, Dracula - I think they genuinely do love the source material, at least I know Gatiss does and i've no real reason to think Moffat doesn't. But then why mock it so ceaselessly? Why make spiteful, contemptuous references to the original stories? Why be cruel to people who are picking up what you're putting down? I mean poo poo, you don't *have* to write TV shows, just don't if it makes you so cross. I dunno. That Italian Guy has a new favorite as of 16:01 on Mar 22, 2021 |
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Mar 22, 2021 15:57
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That Italian Guy posted:The already mentioned Hbomberguy's essay has a lenghty section on how Moffat was able to turn a very positive representation (for the time) female character - smart enough to fool Holmes and to earn his respect - into...a dominatrix that is outsmarted by Holmes, needs to be saved by him and also is in love with him. Yeah, Moffat's Adler is by far one of the most egregious. A Scandal in Belgravia was the exact moment I decided to stop giving it a chance; not only was it the least respectful take on the character possible, the plot somehow managed to be way less fun than A Scandal in Bohemia. Like I'd much rather have watched Holmes dick about in disguise and have his elaborate setups clowned on - it's been a while since I read it but I swear she tricks him into officiating her wedding at one point - than whatever boring direction involving the CIA they ended up taking the plot in.
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Mar 22, 2021 17:38
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small ghost posted:Like I'd much rather have watched Holmes dick about in disguise and have his elaborate setups clowned on - it's been a while since I read it but I swear she tricks him into officiating her wedding at one point - They drag him in to be a witness at the wedding, yeah, and he thinks it's really funny.
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Mar 22, 2021 18:49
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IMO Holmes was better when he was a complete weirdo genius that refused to retain any knowledge that wasn't immediately useful to him as a detective so Watson had to be the guy to remind him of poo poo like the earth revolving around the sun.
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Mar 22, 2021 18:54
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christmas boots posted:IMO Holmes was better when he was a complete weirdo genius that refused to retain any knowledge that wasn't immediately useful to him as a detective so Watson had to be the guy to remind him of poo poo like the earth revolving around the sun. Holmes response to being told that was great because he just says "cool now I'm going to forget you said that so I don't waste precious brain space with useless information".
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Mar 22, 2021 20:03
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Since we're talking about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkoGBOs5ecM
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Mar 22, 2021 20:21
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ReidRansom posted:I think there was an episode of Forensic Files along these lines. Cheap, poorly maintained handgun was the culprit. I think. Could be remembering incorrectly. This sounds familiar to me too. Really weird situation.
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Mar 23, 2021 00:35
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Started watching The Monster Squad. Lot of kids saying slurs in this movie.
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Mar 23, 2021 01:27
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I remember watching that because to my then-friend it was "his" special movie he aspired to one day make himself (lol), and even in the 00s I remember being a bit  at all the "realistic" dialogue of slurs coupled with the out-of-nowhere revelation that the scary old German guy was a Holocaust survivor side by side with the goofy Dracula/Wolfman poo poo.Don't get me wrong I see why it was a cult classic-- that is how certain kids would talk back then and overall I commend it for clearly succeeding at its goals, but the dissonance is pretty jarring in a bad way. Definitely keeps it from being "good" good.
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Mar 23, 2021 01:38
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The virgin stuff is not great either. And Frankenstein’s monster did nothing wrong and should have been able to stay on Earth.
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Mar 23, 2021 01:56
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Our local PBS affiliates tend to show the same handful of Midsomer Murders episodes for months at a time, then will switch to a different handful, seeming to never actually cycle through the whole show or even a full series. Recently we upgraded stuff so now we get the Ovation channel too, which shows ALL the Midsomer Murders episodes, and I thought to myself, how splendid! I can see what I've been missing out on!  I started watching the first episode of the entire show and I'm only about halfway through it but holy poo poo "haha" that casual 1997 homophobia played for laughs  You have troy being a floppy haired douchebag with his commentary, where it's like okay I guess it's plausible we're not supposed to agree with him but it's also definitely not pitting him as being "in the wrong," especially since the gay character in question is written tremendously creepy and stereotypically, including sharing a disquietingly audible on-the-lips kiss with his mother (comfortably resting in the "sissy" subset of mama's boys, who probably turned gay because their moms loved on them too much, of course). Like the character is clearly supposed to be uncomfortable and creepy but looking back from 24 years later, his being flamboyantly gay really shouldn't even factor in to the discomfort equation here! I'm glad as a society we've mostly moved past that in our media but it's really jarring to take in, especially sinc ein all the PBS-safe repeats I've seen, I don't remember seeing anything close to it in tone*, and I'm wondering now if the other episodes I've missed out on are going to feature more fun cultural backsteps to surprise me *i've watched too many british crime solving shows, but i'm pretty certain that later years feature gay characters who aren't portrayed grossly and are in fact presented sympathetically; then again I might just be spoiled by and/or confusing things with Miss Fisher and like, Father freaking Brown
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Mar 23, 2021 02:50
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The only thing I recall about Midsomer Murders is that a few years into the show someone asked one of the showrunners (writer? I forget) whether they'd have a more diverse cast and he said something like he thought it'd spoil the tone of the village involved. It was weird and racist. Sorry to be so vague but it pissed me off even back then.
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Mar 23, 2021 02:56
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It was one of the producers; he was told to step down in 2011 after he said that ""We just don't have ethnic minorities involved. Because it wouldn't be the English village with them. It just wouldn't work" and claimed that the show was "the last bastion of Englishness and I want to keep it that way".
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Mar 23, 2021 04:38
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Angry Salami posted:It was one of the producers; he was told to step down in 2011 after he said that ""We just don't have ethnic minorities involved. Because it wouldn't be the English village with them. It just wouldn't work" and claimed that the show was "the last bastion of Englishness and I want to keep it that way".
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Mar 23, 2021 07:25
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HopperUK posted:The only thing I recall about Midsomer Murders is that a few years into the show someone asked one of the showrunners (writer? I forget) whether they'd have a more diverse cast and he said something like he thought it'd spoil the tone of the village involved. It was weird and racist. Sorry to be so vague but it pissed me off even back then. Angry Salami posted:It was one of the producers; he was told to step down in 2011 after he said that ""We just don't have ethnic minorities involved. Because it wouldn't be the English village with them. It just wouldn't work" and claimed that the show was "the last bastion of Englishness and I want to keep it that way".
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Mar 23, 2021 12:10
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That Italian Guy posted:I mean, this is kinda right in the worst possible way. The other day my (heavily pregnant) wife was walking the dog around the house and a tiny old lady approached her. She muttered "You disgust me" - probably louder than she intended to - then asked my wife directions to a local landmark (that anyone living in the area would know). Then she asked her if she was Brazilian. Finally, she started a rant about all the terrible things immigrants were doing to the neighborhood and how things use to be different and better. So...+1 for accuracy I guess? Eugh. Whereabouts in the UK is this?
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Mar 23, 2021 13:27
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Roblo posted:Eugh. Whereabouts in the UK is this? That Italian Guy has a new favorite as of 14:09 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 23, 2021 14:03
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A lot of these communities consider you an unwelcome stranger if your grandparents didn't know their grandparents.
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Mar 23, 2021 14:26
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Yeah my girlfriend and I were briefly considering moving to a region like that but realized very quickly we'd have better luck climbing a sheer rock face covered in butter.
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Mar 23, 2021 14:32
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Ghost Leviathan posted:A lot of these communities consider you an unwelcome stranger if your grandparents didn't know their grandparents. In America we call that New England parochialism.
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Mar 23, 2021 14:36
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