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MadScientistWorking posted:Wrong book. She was working on the Ravenloft book and was complaining about how people weren't giving it the benefit of the doubt because look at all the PoC on it which is still a horrible take.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:54
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| # ? May 26, 2024 18:13 |
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The Ravenloft book isn't out yet.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:55
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DesertIslandHermit posted:A bar that says ‘Not racist.’ but Nanny Pupu quickly shifts in and out of the right side of the bar. "Not racist" but a kender steals the "Not"
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Mar 22, 2021 20:57
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ah my bad then.
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Mar 22, 2021 20:57
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I go back and forth on how I feel about Price working on Ravenloft. On the one hand, everybody’s gotta eat, on the other, it feels like she wants to eat her cake and have it too, with her wanting to still be seem as having a moral high ground but working for WotC
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Mar 22, 2021 21:31
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Kurieg posted:"Not racist" but a kender steals the "Not" I think you mean borrow 
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Mar 22, 2021 21:33
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At a glance it seems more that they hired him to write an adventure, and then cut out the stuff they were not paying for. The extra lore, the player options etc.
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Mar 22, 2021 22:53
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Arthil posted:At a glance it seems more that they hired him to write an adventure, and then cut out the stuff they were not paying for. The extra lore, the player options etc. "extra lore" is a hell of a thing to call "the reasons the events of the adventure happen at all and important info about the entire cast of the adventure".
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Mar 22, 2021 22:55
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SkyeAuroline posted:"extra lore" is a hell of a thing to call "the reasons the events of the adventure happen at all and important info about the entire cast of the adventure". The cast of an adventure are the players, everything else is a set piece.
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Mar 22, 2021 22:56
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Arthil posted:At a glance it seems more that they hired him to write an adventure, and then cut out the stuff they were not paying for. The extra lore, the player options etc. They never communicated this to him and, as they were cutting out the lore and story from the adventure, added racist language that he didn't intend, again without communicating with him.
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Mar 22, 2021 22:59
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Arthil posted:At a glance it seems more that they hired him to write an adventure, and then cut out the stuff they were not paying for. The extra lore, the player options etc. There's this stage in writing where you send in your first draft, then get it back with comments on what needs changing. Typically, 'we do not want you to include all this information' is part of this phase.
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Mar 22, 2021 23:02
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Mors Rattus posted:There's this stage in writing where you send in your first draft, then get it back with comments on what needs changing. I could reasonably see this being skipped due to crunch. Having your work edited after the fact just seems... like a common expectation? It always happened with my design work.
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Mar 22, 2021 23:06
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The D&D team at Hasbro deserves no benefits of the doubt until shown otherwise
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Mar 22, 2021 23:09
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Splicer posted:It's not even a new race Wait, why does D&D have so many variations of "tribal frog people"?
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Mar 22, 2021 23:14
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KingKalamari posted:Wait, why does D&D have so many variations of "tribal frog people"? Lots of Monster Manuals.
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Mar 22, 2021 23:34
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theironjef posted:Lots of Monster Manuals. Yeah, but they could at least come up with a different "hat" to put on the frogmen. "This race of frog people are inventive industrialists who make crazy industrial machines out of dragonflies and snails" "This race of frog people wear rad heavy armor that makes them sink to the bottom of the lakes in which they live" "These frog men have an intricate and advanced legal system that takes decades of study to fully understand" Anything other than "These are another race of frog guys that live in hunter gatherer societies in swamps"
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Mar 22, 2021 23:55
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Arthil posted:I could reasonably see this being skipped due to crunch. Having your work edited after the fact just seems... like a common expectation? It always happened with my design work. whydirt posted:The D&D team at Hasbro deserves no benefits of the doubt until shown otherwise
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Mar 23, 2021 00:08
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KingKalamari posted:Anything other than "These are another race of frog guys that live in hunter gatherer societies in swamps" Welcome to D&D and it's history of unquestioned colonialism! It expresses itself in the weirdest ways.
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Mar 23, 2021 00:09
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KingKalamari posted:Yeah, but they could at least come up with a different "hat" to put on the frogmen. The hats are largely sizes. Bullywugs are man-sized frogs, Grippli are just barely larger than actual frogs, grungs are the size of halflings. There's other differences as well (grungs are basically based on poison dart frogs). If I were inclined to be charitable to TSR and WOTC, I'd say there's so many frogs so you can make a frog-only dungeon with a lot of different types of cool intelligent and animal frog monsters (giant frogs, froghemoths) and then have the whole thing end in a fight with a Slaad, but I'm pretty sure the "We've got eight monster manuals to fill here and we can't pull that Nilbog trick too many times" explanation is closer to accurate.
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Mar 23, 2021 00:09
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Arthil posted:I could reasonably see this being skipped due to crunch. Having your work edited after the fact just seems... like a common expectation? It always happened with my design work. While details vary between different careers, usually writers who get named credits for their work at minimum get to see and usually actively approve edits. It's specifically to avoid issues like this, where an editor changes text to things that are inaccurate or offensive but then you as author get the blame for the new language.
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Mar 23, 2021 00:18
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Arthil posted:At a glance it seems more that they hired him to write an adventure, and then cut out the stuff they were not paying for. The extra lore, the player options etc. Arthil posted:The cast of an adventure are the players, everything else is a set piece. Arthil posted:I could reasonably see this being skipped due to crunch. Having your work edited after the fact just seems... like a common expectation? It always happened with my design work. Honestly, these are all reasonable positions to hold, and it's almost certain the feedback phase being skipped due to crunch is what happened. This isn't anything special, it's just bad practice. I don't know anything about PanzerLion's work, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he wrote a good adventure. In the most charitable light, WotC's editing process took an adventure that could have traded on one of their flagship setting's major selling points ("The Forgotten Realms is chockablock with interconnected lore") and pared it down to Yet Another Now you can layer on the other racially-charged issues surrounding the work, the author, and WotC, but it's a mess even before you get to that point.
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Mar 23, 2021 00:23
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Notahippie posted:While details vary between different careers, usually writers who get named credits for their work at minimum get to see and usually actively approve edits. It's specifically to avoid issues like this, where an editor changes text to things that are inaccurate or offensive but then you as author get the blame for the new language. Yeah, even if WotC wanted final say on editing approval, they should at least be showing the final version to the author before the book goes to print so the author has a chance to disassociate their name from the final product if the disagree with the direction the final edits take it in.
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Mar 23, 2021 00:44
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Having talked to some of the writers on this book, I'm pretty sure this isn't a situation in which things were so rushed that they took the literal first draft and didn't even give any notes on it for a second. e: and like, saying it's 'reasonable' that the biggest RPG company in the entire industry was somehow so rushed and pressed for time on a book they specifically were doing as an effort to hire more diverse voices and were actively reaching out to the community of people who criticized them in the past about it for that they only took first drafts and didn't go for final drafts is just what? e2: It is normal for further editing after that to happen. That's true. But "you should not have included this kind of material at all" is not a 'further editing' step, it's a 'please change this for your final draft' step. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 23, 2021 02:37
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https://twitter.com/POCGamer/status/1374136820036898820
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Mar 23, 2021 02:52
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Arthil posted:I could reasonably see this being skipped due to crunch. Having your work edited after the fact just seems... like a common expectation? It always happened with my design work. This is absolute complete nonsense especially from a company that has demonstrated over and over again they do this with intent every time.
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Mar 23, 2021 02:56
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Are we sure Mearls hasn't been Kevin Siembieda this whole time? It would explain a lot.
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Mar 23, 2021 02:57
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Halloween Jack posted:Are we sure Mearls hasn't been Kevin Siembieda this whole time? It would explain a lot. i don't think siembieda is that bigoted
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Mar 23, 2021 03:00
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imagine thinking the company that delayed a book cause a guy had jury duty was rushed
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Mar 23, 2021 03:54
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theironjef posted:If I were inclined to be charitable to TSR and WOTC, I'd say there's so many frogs so you can make a frog-only dungeon with a lot of different types of cool intelligent and animal frog monsters (giant frogs, froghemoths) and then have the whole thing end in a fight with a Slaad, but I'm pretty sure the "We've got eight monster manuals to fill here and we can't pull that Nilbog trick too many times" explanation is closer to accurate.
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Mar 23, 2021 05:26
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Being as absurdly charitable as one can be,The player character race I get being cut, as well as some of the deep lore. Player character Race seems outside the scope of what this project was, and It's conceivable they had some other plans/didn't want some huge reveal or usage of old lore that they have to (theoretically) care about going forward. But even so at the end of the day it's extremely hosed to make all those changes via an editor, and not bounce it off of the initial writer, letting them in on the editing process.
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Mar 23, 2021 07:03
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I guess the real Candlekeep Mysteries were what the adventure was even about in the first place along the way.
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Mar 23, 2021 09:17
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Arthil posted:The cast of an adventure are the players, everything else is a set piece. Eggnogium posted:Yeah, not that I can know what was in PanzerLion's original drafts but the published adventure (spoilers if anyone cares) features a climactic encounter with some Yuan-Ti performing a ritual by sacrificing prisoners. It clarifies that mechanically the players must interrupt the ritual within a certain number of rounds or it will succeed. At no point does it describe what the purpose of the ritual is or what happens if it succeeds other than that the prisoners die. So it's not just pointless background information that is missing, the antagonists have no concrete motivation whatsoever. pog boyfriend posted:if players see these yuan ti acting up and doing evil poo poo, its not unreasonable to assume the players are going to ask themselves "why are the yuan ti doing this?" and this is where that lore comes into play in a very important way. if you say "the yuan ti are evil because yuan ti are all evil" this certainly answers the question but the level of depth in this question is lower than the players interest level. if the players wanted to know the evil guys are doing evil things because they are evil they wouldnt even ask the question, they would just assume that and never ask a question because the fact they are doing evil things is enough of a justification. the reason they are asking for the motives of these characters is because they are interested in the story and want to dig deeper than the immediately obvious and taking the lore out leaves the DM with nothing to work with. Eggnogium posted:Honestly I think you’re overestimating the published product. The answer is even weaker than asserting the Yuan-Ti are evil and therefore do evil things: there are some good Yuan-Ti in the adventure, there is no backstory provided about why one faction of Yuan-Ti is good and the other is evil. They just are and the goals of the evil Yuan-Ti are completely unknown besides “complete a ritual”. What does the ritual do, what makes it evil? Unspecified.
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Mar 23, 2021 09:55
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Splicer posted:It's a set piece that's missing half the pieces. To quote some good posts from the 5e thread (yeah you heard me) But apart from all that Ms Lincoln, how was the play? Is the adventure any good? Which one is it?
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Mar 23, 2021 11:00
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Splicer posted:It's a set piece that's missing half the pieces. To quote some good posts from the 5e thread (yeah you heard me)
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Mar 23, 2021 13:42
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MadScientistWorking posted:Its also something that I've seen major tabletop companies flat out say can reinforce racism so to dismiss the concerns of bad adventure writing like that is pretty lovely and ignorant. ...what, giving your villains motivations?
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Mar 23, 2021 14:38
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Mors Rattus posted:...what, giving your villains motivations? MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 23, 2021 14:48
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MadScientistWorking posted:Actually yes it can but I meant the background information in the an adventure and setting. It's pretty hosed up to pretend that stuff like motivation is ancillary to this whole thing. Uh Dude I literally cannot tell what side of this argument you are on or if you are arguing that “actually, background information and motivations make people racist” To which I say: citation loving needed
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Mar 23, 2021 14:50
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Mors Rattus posted:Uh
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Mar 23, 2021 15:11
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They're saying that the removal of the motivational details is, in addition to general bad practice, actually making the product more racist. You are both on the same side.
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Mar 23, 2021 15:12
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Okay, cool, we cool.
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Mar 23, 2021 15:20
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