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i just spend a fuckton on mine, but it's worth it imo. the previous one was 20 years old and i figured i need to stop tempting fate by continuing to run it to its limits every summer. e: wrong thread lol Slow News Day fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 02:09
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:How people can have a discussion of anything if they disagree on what words mean in the first place? I think at this point we all know what we're talking about. People calling these camps "concentration camps" aren't saying they're as bad as Nazi death camps, and people who call them internment camps or refugee camps aren't deliberately trying to minimize the bad poo poo that's going on inside of them. This discussion is only going to successfully operate if there is a presumption of good faith. If people start using these labels as bludgeoning weapons against each other, or start calling each other deceitful propagandists or blood-gurgling monsters, we, the mod team, will deal with those posts on an individual basis. But outlawing or mandating specific terms, or policing language at this level, is not the solution.
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Mar 24, 2021 02:24
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It's not words, it's about proper communication as after this is supposed to be Debate and Discussion. While the refugee encampments are no doubt terrible concentration camps has a whole different meaning and connotation - Nazi Death Camps. And we know that these aren't actual Nazi Death Camps making it an inaccurate description. This goes far beyond Nazi's and is also directly comparable to Japanese internment camps The ADL doesn't like it either, https://twitter.com/JGreenblattADL/status/1141051354401714177?s=20
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Mar 24, 2021 02:37
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IK Hat On: We're not going to continue the meta-discussion here. If anyone wants to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me or someone else on the mod team, or else start a QCS thread on it. But this thread is for discussing U.S. immigration policy. I'm going to start probating people who keep at it.
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Mar 24, 2021 02:43
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Majorian posted:IK Hat On: We're not going to continue the meta-discussion here. If anyone wants to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me or someone else on the mod team, or else start a QCS thread on it. But this thread is for discussing U.S. immigration policy. I'm going to start probating people who keep at it. This is how rhetorical shifting and tone policing occurs. People raise enough of a stink and it takes over the debate, preventing discussion from occurring. People's "feelings about the terms being used" are now more important than the actual oppression occurring. And it's always an argument that the terms need to be downgraded, never ever that they should be made more stark. This happens all the time in discussions that involve racism, and immigration is absolutely a topic that involves racism. I'm assuming you'll probate me for this, I'm fine with that. QCS is absolutely useless for this kind of thing, and it should occur out in the open here rather than in PM. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 24, 2021 02:53
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:It's not words, it's about proper communication as after this is supposed to be Debate and Discussion. While the refugee encampments are no doubt terrible concentration camps has a whole different meaning and connotation - Nazi Death Camps. And we know that these aren't actual Nazi Death Camps making it an inaccurate description. This goes far beyond Nazi's and is also directly comparable to Japanese internment camps internment camps are concentration camps I don't care what some overpaid idiot at a schmuck club like the ADL says if you want to hide behind my people I'm going to point to the countless Jewish groups who fully agree with the term being used because they loving understand what words mean and have empathy for others who don't look like them. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 24, 2021 03:38
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Edit - On Hold.
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Mar 24, 2021 03:44
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BougieBitch posted:Okay, let's reiterate because it seems that people haven't been reading the posts they reply to. They are not FROM Cuellar, he did not take them, he has not said where he got them, and he literally reposted a FWD:FWD:FWD video of a border crossing that was likely staged, originally posted by a group called Tripwires and Triggers, so assuming that he has some secret inside source rather than just another FWD:FWD:FWD Facebook group is making a huge leap. I posted this literally two pages ago. If you have CONCRETE info on where those photos came from, then feel free to let us know, but he has not demonstrated any level of savvy when it comes to identifying misleading sources, so if CBS is taking his word for it rather than getting in touch with the original photographer then that is just another FWD: in the chain Do you know what would solve this problem? Opening up one of the camps to a press tour. There would still be issues around how much sanitizing the camps were able to do ahead of the press showing up, but it would at least be a pushback and it wouldn't require much time or effort. Biden not allowing the press into the camps to document what is really happening is a massive loving problem. This administration's relationship to the media in general is pretty alarming, but this specific issue is incredibly concerning.
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Mar 24, 2021 03:52
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Nix Panicus posted:Do you know what would solve this problem? Opening up one of the camps to a press tour. There would still be issues around how much sanitizing the camps were able to do ahead of the press showing up, but it would at least be a pushback and it wouldn't require much time or effort. Yes, agreed, but a handful of photos from Veritas are not a substitute for actual access, and shouldn't be used as the basis for any rational argument. The best thing to do is continue to push the admin on this backwards policy of not letting people access the facilities and treat the entire situation as if the Veritas photos did not exist - in all functional ways, the Donna facility has not been toured and rather than asking "what are you doing about the conditions depicted in these unverified photos from an unspecified source" the press should be asking "what are you doing about these numbers from your own admin, these reports of bad conditions from advocacy groups, and the lack of access to lawyers, reporters, and congresspeople?" The problem is, CBS is running the photos to catch the eye in that tweet without saying where they came from there or in the article, the Axios story is running them credited to Cuellar even though he explicitly said he got them from someone else, and then Veritas is self-evidently a terrible source. If CBS had instead tweeted "the Biden admin continues to disallow our reporters access to the Donna facility, where concerns have been raised about hygiene and COVID safety" that would be a useful way to pressure Biden to get someone in there to take whatever pictures are needed, but by playing telephone we now have a bunch of places that could have been trying to get their own pictures or something more substantial like video interviews with detainees instead settling for recycling photos. Maybe that's because the Biden admin is just too tough to work with, but maybe they just aren't willing to do their own legwork on one facility of many when they can just crib someone else's notes and try to get the first scoop on the next one instead - the fact that they didn't credit the photos in that tweet in any way is a strike against them imo, and I hope that by the end of this week we have something more substantial out of that facility as well as the Dallas convention center HHS one that they have been spinning up BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 06:58
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BougieBitch posted:Yes, agreed, but a handful of photos from Veritas are not a substitute for actual access, and shouldn't be used as the basis for any rational argument. The best thing to do is continue to push the admin on this backwards policy of not letting people access the facilities and treat the entire situation as if the Veritas photos did not exist - No, the answer is not "just ignore evidence" The Oldest Man posted:They're from a Democratic congressman and every single post in this thread trying to tie those photos to Project Veritas is some grade A+ water muddying because people would rather complain about propagandists who released other, different photos of the facility than talk about the substance of huge numbers of kids being incarcerated under monstrously inhumane conditions. Stop.
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Mar 24, 2021 10:50
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Yinlock posted:No, the answer is not "just ignore evidence" Evidence of what, exactly? What do you think those photos prove? That there are unhappy people in the refugee holding area? That the poo poo built in a matter of days by FEMA looks like every other emergency pop-up shelter? Yes, all of that is true, and it isn't new information, because we already knew that from the actual reporting that has been happening for weeks. But it doesn't answer any of the actual questions about the situation, like whether food is being distributed, whether people are receiving health care if they need it, whether people have the access to showers, or how long people are in this facility before they are moved to a better one. Trying to extrapolate any of these things from 8 photos is a fools' errand, especially when the person who took the photos didn't do anything to add the context that is so desperately needed to answer those questions, and didn't include any quotes from the people being photographed in their FWD to Cuellar and Veritas
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Mar 24, 2021 12:23
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BougieBitch posted:Evidence of what, exactly? What do you think those photos prove? That there are unhappy people in the refugee holding area? That the poo poo built in a matter of days by FEMA looks like every other emergency pop-up shelter? Yes, all of that is true, and it isn't new information, because we already knew that from the actual reporting that has been happening for weeks. But it doesn't answer any of the actual questions about the situation, like whether food is being distributed, whether people are receiving health care if they need it, whether people have the access to showers, or how long people are in this facility before they are moved to a better one. Trying to extrapolate any of these things from 8 photos is a fools' errand, especially when the person who took the photos didn't do anything to add the context that is so desperately needed to answer those questions, and didn't include any quotes from the people being photographed in their FWD to Cuellar and Veritas for one, they're direct evidence that children are being held in overcrowded, unhealthy, and unsafe conditions. you https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1373997915983777793/photo/3 it's ridiculous for you to claim there's "not enough context", "no quotes", and "not enough information" to make any judgement on these photos when the government is being incredibly tight-lipped about anything regarding these facilities. all of those points are the government's fault, which is also the entity being judged here. the lack of information is the government's fault. the lack of context is the government's fault. the lack of quotes from the people in the photos is the government's fault. the government has the wherewithal and the resources to defend itself if these concentration camps are actually "refugee holding areas" and people are only "unhappy".
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Mar 24, 2021 12:43
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Condiv posted:for one, they're direct evidence that children are being held in overcrowded, unhealthy, and unsafe conditions. you What assumptions are reasonable or unreasonable to make based on those photos?
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Mar 24, 2021 12:50
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Condiv posted:for one, they're direct evidence that children are being held in overcrowded, unhealthy, and unsafe conditions. you Yes, people are more than "unhappy". You know how we know that? From the actual reporting that has been happening and from the immigrant advocate orgs that have been fighting on this issue for weeks. Not from the photos, which add nothing of substance to the conversation. No one is saying conditions are good. No one is saying that the situation is acceptable. What I am saying is that empty quoting photos at people is not actual evidence, which we DO have and WERE discussing before these stupid photos consumed all the oxygen by completely derailing any sort of productive conversation Edit: just as an example- how can you use these photos as evidence that the facilities are overcrowded? In the photo with the clearest view of people's faces (Bottom left) I count 42 people. According to Cuellar himself, quote:Why it matters: Each of eight "pods" in the so-called soft-sided facility has a 260-person occupancy, said Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-Texas), who provided the photos to Axios to raise awareness about the situation. But as of Sunday, he said, one pod held more than 400 unaccompanied male minors. How do we know there are 400 unaccompanied male minors? It's possible Cuellar got that info from somewhere, but it wasn't the photos! It also wasn't from being there, since: quote:Cuellar, who recently visited a shelter for children, did not tour the Donna facility or take the photos himself. He said the photos were taken over the weekend. So where did this claim come from? Well, we don't know. Maybe the person who sent the photos also told him that, maybe he got it directly from the Biden admin, maybe he got it from a Facebook group he's part of. Without any clear sourcing on the photos, he can say whatever he wants about the conditions and be seen as an authority on the issue because he "provided photos" which he did not take himself. BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 12:58
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:What assumptions are reasonable or unreasonable to make based on those photos? Not directed at me but I'd assume that forcibly detaining a bunch of vunerable and desperate people against their will in close quarters during a pandemic is uhh not good. Giving Biden the benefit of the doubt which he doesn't deserve but why don't they just send the single adults or whole familes back. Give them a bottle of water and put them in Juarez or Tijuana. I don't agree with just turning people lose at the border but if the alternative is packed camps in a pandemic it doesn't seem like a hard choice.
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Mar 24, 2021 13:05
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:What assumptions are reasonable or unreasonable to make based on those photos? hmm well we have a bunch of kids in overcrowded conditions sleeping on the floor. we can tell from this that they're in an unhealthy and unsafe environment, and being put in said environment by our government. BougieBitch posted:Yes, people are more than "unhappy". You know how we know that? From the actual reporting that has been happening and from the immigrant advocate orgs that have been fighting on this issue for weeks. Not from the photos, which add nothing of substance to the conversation. photos add nothing to this conversation? that's patently ridiculous. photos reify the abuses and terrible conditions these immigrant advocate orgs have been describing to you. it's one thing to hear about the atrocities and realities of war in written form, it's another to see photos and video of it. the latter is more powerful, and can add to a discussion against war. likewise photos of the atrocities being inflicted on children at the border concentration camps bolster arguments against said camps.
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Mar 24, 2021 13:12
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BougieBitch posted:Yes, people are more than "unhappy". You know how we know that? From the actual reporting that has been happening and from the immigrant advocate orgs that have been fighting on this issue for weeks. Not from the photos, which add nothing of substance to the conversation. The photos are also evidence. What value is there in drawing this distinction? The impression I get is you don’t like that the photos are unambiguous and thus can’t really be debated with, or talked around.
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Mar 24, 2021 13:14
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Genuinely shocked we've already reached the 'ah but how do you KNOW it's bad to keep kids packed like sardines in cages while we deny them basic rights like lawyers and contact with the outside world' stage so fast. The photos are proof of what activists have been saying, yes, the photos matter because tons of people like you have been shrugging their shoulders at those activist reports and these are visual proof about how loving horrible the conditions are inside.
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Mar 24, 2021 13:33
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misadventurous posted:The photos are also evidence. What value is there in drawing this distinction? The impression I get is you don’t like that the photos are unambiguous and thus can’t really be debated with, or talked around. No, they aren't unambiguous, photos are extremely easy to make misleading. Here's something from the start of the pandemic where angle tricks were used to mislead the eye into assuming a smaller square-footage was pictured than existed in reality: https://www.buzzfeed.com/joeydurso/coronavirus-social-distancing-lockdown-photos The debunkers are able to establish the actual space taken in these examples by using reference objects to determine what angle is being used. Here's the problem - the entire background in these photos is white walls and narrow tentpoles, so it's impossible to establish that context. How many square feet do you think the area pictured in the photos is? You can sort of see where this is happening if you compare the relative visual length of the pole on the left side of the picture to the same pole in the photo on the top right in the photoset - the distance between vertical support poles is probably between 8 and 10 feet, making the entire photo from foreground to background 24 to 30 feet, but the visual effect from the photo gives the impression of a much smaller space
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Mar 24, 2021 13:37
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BougieBitch posted:No, they aren't unambiguous, photos are extremely easy to make misleading. so just to be clear do you believe this democratic politician is working with the bad photo man to sabotage biden for...some reason, or are you just gonna crank off about square footage as if that means anything when the issue is the conditions inside the cages
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Mar 24, 2021 13:41
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BougieBitch posted:No, they aren't unambiguous, photos are extremely easy to make misleading. Are you intimating that these particular photos are using tricks of perspective to mislead, or are you just arguing that journalistic photography is fundamentally invalid? (This is disgusting.)
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Mar 24, 2021 13:42
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BougieBitch posted:No, they aren't unambiguous, photos are extremely easy to make misleading. I’m sorry, are you seriously theorycrafting whether the small space these migrants have been packed into is really that small?? They could turn into a loving magic eye painting if I stared at them long enough, I would still consider them pretty clear cut evidence of the conditions at the border misadventurous fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 13:43
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BougieBitch posted:No, they aren't unambiguous, photos are extremely easy to make misleading. Why do you think square footage matters when the cages in the pictures are clearly full of children? Also I’m sorry the photographer didn’t have the foresight to set up proper lighting and backgrounds in the concentration camps they were documenting. They’re probably just new to the job and didn’t ask the Biden administration for the standard “decompression center glamour shot” kits
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Mar 24, 2021 14:02
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I have a general question for the wait and see crowd, what do you want to see happen to the camps thats possible in our political reality. I can't imagine you're going to get 10 Republican senators to compromise on any immigration reform and it's not like the problems going away. I just can't see how the Biden administration can do anything other than just ignore it and hope the story dies.
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Mar 24, 2021 14:20
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Terminal autist posted:I have a general question for the wait and see crowd, what do you want to see happen to the camps thats possible in our political reality. I can't imagine you're going to get 10 Republican senators to compromise on any immigration reform and it's not like the problems going away. I just can't see how the Biden administration can do anything other than just ignore it and hope the story dies. I appreciate your question here because imo it's a more productive line of discussion than getting mad about the photos. Which yes, obviously, we should be mad about the conditions migrants are being held in because they're inhumane and the whole US immigration system is inhumane and bad and has been for decades. The question is, what do we do about it? I don't believe anyone here has said anything remotely along the lines of "wait and see." The current discussion seems to be mostly about whether we should trust photos from known liars and right-wing propaganda/smear outlet Project Veritas that show the conditions in camps are bad and unacceptable. Or whether we don't need to lend credibility to Veritas because we already knew the conditions were bad and unacceptable from first-hand reporting by legitimate outlets. The photos don't meaningfully change our understanding of the situation and they don't provide any useful information on how we might address the crisis. They make people (more) mad at the Biden admin which is why right-wing media outlets are wielding them. There are plenty of valid reasons to be mad at the Biden admin on this issue--the inhumane conditions, lack of transparency and journalist access, lack of a strong message to the public, etc. I don't need a right-wing propaganda outlet to validate my anger and it's dangerous to give any credence to them at all. A couple months in the future we might learn that Veritas' photos are completely legitimate and accurately represent the conditions migrant children are being held in. That will be used as evidence that Veritas was right and maybe we should pay attention to them when they peddle their next fabricated smear campaign. You don't gotta hand it to 'em, not even once. There is ample evidence that the conditions are bad and unacceptable without Veritas. The reports from legitimate outlets and photos from Cuellar tell the same story without having to give credence to a loving right-wing smear outlet. You know what I think would be useful information? Specifics of how children are being housed in the ORR camps such as bedding, hygiene, education, legal access. What steps are being taken to speed up their transfer to host families. I'll point out again that these photos are from CBP facilities, not the ORR camps. We don't know what's going on in the ORR camps and that's a problem! To answer your question of "what can we do given political reality" I mean, I don't have all the answers here and that's why I think it's a valuable discussion. We need comprehensive reform of the immigration system and the infrastructure for welcoming refugees and that's going to require Congress. In the short term I'd like to see Biden and co. give a White House address on the issue, admit the conditions are bad, make an appeal to the American people to support comprehensive immigration reform. Allow journalist access to the facilities and generally provide transparency. Deploy emergency personnel to speed up the process of relocating children to host families. FEMA has been deployed which is good, building more camps is a necessary evil but longer-term we need more staffing and resources to quickly and safely relocate kids. We need to build the capacity in the system to quickly and humanely process migrants and not just build more detention facilities as a stopgap. Me personally I'll donate some money to RAICES, any other good charities? I'll call my congressional rep offices on Friday but that's unlikely to have any impact given they're all Republicans. What I'm not going to do is cheerlead for loving Project Veritas.
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Mar 24, 2021 16:22
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I HAVE said wait and see, but I explicitly said "wait and see for no longer than one week" either here or in the USPOL thread. In terms of what to hope for, we have this from this morning: https://www.axios.com/senior-biden-officials-make-border-visit-4eb4c8ea-340b-466c-b3be-c252a7afd86f.html Which, if you read the article and not just the headline, specifically includes letting congresspeople and a news camera in to view the facility, so you can literally just put a lid on this discussion for another day and then start it back up with video evidence, witness testimony, and maybe an interview with some of the people there. In terms of the specific things that need to be fixed, the biggest one to be concerned with is the duration of processing. Right now, it is taking WAY too long to move people from the short-term facilities like the Donna site to longer-term facilities like the hotels that are being leased, and arguably also too long to go from the long-term facilities to actually getting their case heard. Those are the numbers I would be most concerned about, along with COVID rates in facilities (ideally looking at both intake and long-term numbers since there's ample reason to believe things on the Mexican side of the border are bad news in terms of keeping people safe). If we are consistently seeing stuff like the 10% positivity that has been thrown around with regards to the CBP facilities, I think we need to start moving towards having separate facilities or wings for COVID treatment so that people in poor health are able to get treatment quickly and the aid workers being sent by the Red Cross and the like are able to be put to good use. The last thing we want is for these facilities to look like some of the prisons and nursing homes where infection rates are in the mid-double-digits and it becomes impossible to allocate enough hospital beds due to a spike in cases. In terms of immediate action, I think the admin needs to put out a fact sheet that lays out what all facilities exist, who runs them, and what their maximum safe capacity is, then give us daily updates on the numbers for the short-term ones and weekly updates on the numbers for the long-term ones in one place. On top of that, they need to have aggressive COVID testing, beyond just at intake, and they should be reaching out to Mexico to make sure the camps on the other side of the border are also getting tested and people are quarantining when they test positive. These should be things that can be done without congress, to my understanding, although I'm not entirely sure which department would need to ship the tests. There also have already been some overtures to Mexico about this, but I don't think the details have been finalized, or at least they weren't last time I checked.
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Mar 24, 2021 16:53
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just this morning - https://www.axios.com/senior-biden-officials-make-border-visit-4eb4c8ea-340b-466c-b3be-c252a7afd86f.htmlquote:A number of senior Biden administration officials and members of Congress are taking a trip on Wednesday to a refugee resettlement facility along the U.S.-Mexico border in Texas, Axios has learned. So we'll be getting journalist access to the Carizzo Springs ORR facility. And I included the last bit because holy gently caress the GOP are monsters. edit: haha beaten by one minute
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Mar 24, 2021 16:54
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BougieBitch posted:Yes, agreed, but a handful of photos from Veritas are not a substitute for actual access, and shouldn't be used as the basis for any rational argument. The best thing to do is continue to push the admin on this backwards policy of not letting people access the facilities and treat the entire situation as if the Veritas photos did not exist - in all functional ways, the Donna facility has not been toured and rather than asking "what are you doing about the conditions depicted in these unverified photos from an unspecified source" the press should be asking "what are you doing about these numbers from your own admin, these reports of bad conditions from advocacy groups, and the lack of access to lawyers, reporters, and congresspeople?" Once again, since no one has yet answered: Is there any proof at all that the photos were doctored or taken under a different administration?
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Mar 24, 2021 17:40
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Willa Rogers posted:Once again, since no one has yet answered: Is there any proof at all that the photos were doctored or taken under a different administration? No, and I didn't say that they were. The problem is that people are using them to argue that conditions are "unsanitary", as though they can just SEE the bacteria or something, argue that they prove there are 400 people in a 260-person space when none of the photos have even close to that number of people or that degree of crowding, all while refusing to acknowledge that they are totally unsourced, like not even "an anonymous Border Patrol agent" but just straight "I got this in my inbox" with no capacity for CBS or Axios to ask the person who sent them in any questions about the context, the specifics of when and where they were taken, any sort of evidence of who they are and why they were able to be there, or even a basic caption. It would be one thing if it was just that we personally can't know that, that's just protecting your sources, but the people publishing things ABSOLUTELY need to be able to independently verify the person sending the photos, and when Axios says "photos courtesy of Cuellar" and then issues a correction that "oh wait, he didn't take these himself" it's hard to believe that even a cursory level of checking has been done, especially when they cite Veritas as a source in the same article If I take a picture of my living room and then write a Medium article about how good the conditions REALLY are, that doesn't make the photo reputable or trustworthy, and if CBS picks up the same photo and uses it in a news story, that doesn't make it more real. Obviously, this case is not to that extreme - these at least are probably actual pictures of actual camps, and yeah, I think it's more likely than not that they are of the current ones, but when your source for information amounts to "person on the street" it is HUGELY important that you do a bit of background research to make sure they are who they say they are so you don't end up interviewing "Congressman Booker" for an hour only to find out that the guy you were talking to was pulling a prank on you
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Mar 24, 2021 18:15
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BougieBitch posted:The problem is that people are using them to argue that conditions are "unsanitary", as though they can just SEE the bacteria or something, This is an odd argument to make in the middle of a pandemic caused by an airborne virus. We've all gotten pretty adept at noticing when there are too many people crowded together in too small a space like you can clearly see in the photos.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:28
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As I think I said before, people should be assuming by default that conditions at the border are no less bad than they were under Trump or Obama. This is a situation where you should obviously assume things are bad unless the government provides persuasive evidence otherwise (and the lack of press access should be a huge red flag, and having scheduled future press access to a single facility certainly doesn't change that). Also, the most astoundingly conspicuous thing about this whole situation is the sudden change in rhetoric and attitude that came with Biden taking office. There's no rational basis for this change, and you certainly didn't see people (on these forums) getting defensive like this under Trump.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:39
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My speculation is that both the Veritas and Cuellar photos are real and exactly what they purport to be. No journalists have been allowed in so the anonymous source is likely a CBP employee. Again, the photos are from a CBP (under DHS, full of fascists just like ICE) facility, not ORR (under HHS). Recall that CBP and ICE have been resisting the Biden admin after four years of intense politicization under Trump. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/us/politics/biden-trump-immigration.html quote:Liberal immigration activists and former Trump administration officials rarely agree on much, but both parties say Mr. Mayorkas will struggle to get buy-in for Mr. Biden’s immigration agenda from the thousands of border and immigration agents in his 240,000-person department. What seems most likely to me is a right-winger CBP employee leaked the (very much real) photos to Veritas instead of a legitimate outlet because they want to push the right-wing narrative that Biden is creating this crisis by allowing the minors in instead of refusing them entry and forcing them to camp out in Mexican border towns. The GOP and right wing media narrative is that Biden's more humanitarian stance on immigration is causing the crisis at the border, and the solution is to increase enforcement and deterrence, expel minors back into Mexico, support ARE TROOPS in ICE and CBP, etc. Obviously that's horseshit (I would know) and the correct, humane response is to speed processing of migrants, build better housing facilities, allow journalist access, transparency, push comprehensive legislation reform. We don't need to traffic in Project Veritas propaganda. You do not, in fact, gotta hand it to 'em. They're not providing any information we don't already know from Cuellar or legitimate reports, and we're going to get cameras in the ORR facilities soon. Ytlaya posted:As I think I said before, people should be assuming by default that conditions at the border are no less bad than they were under Trump or Obama. This is a situation where you should obviously assume things are bad unless the government provides persuasive evidence otherwise (and the lack of press access should be a huge red flag, and having scheduled future press access to a single facility certainly doesn't change that). edit; also I don't want to derail into word choice and semantics but "processing" migrants feels weird and gross to use for me. edit2: which, feeling uncomfortable about it is good because the whole setup right now is unacceptable. It'd be nice to say we're "welcoming" migrants but that'd be some gross euphemism. Maybe (hopefully) some day. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 18:43
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Ytlaya posted:As I think I said before, people should be assuming by default that conditions at the border are no less bad than they were under Trump or Obama. This is a situation where you should obviously assume things are bad unless the government provides persuasive evidence otherwise (and the lack of press access should be a huge red flag, and having scheduled future press access to a single facility certainly doesn't change that). Because while things haven’t magically resolved there has been a 63% increase in arrival of migrants who are unaccompanied minors, a complete stoppage of the expedited removal process that immediately expelled 100000k people last year, and an improvement in the average holding time in DHS custody before transfer to HHS ORR, from over a week to 117 hours. More people are arriving, less are being ejected immediately and holding time in DHS is trending down. Is it enough? No, no one is saying that. Should we push for better conditions and reduced holding times, yes! We all agree on that. Is Biden as bad as trump? No, not based on the facts we are seeing reported. Is he doing enough? That’s certainly an area that we can all agree needs massive improvement. And lastly is there a magic wand to make it go away? No, there isn’t. But things are improving, resources are being allocated and hopefully this turns into solid action to get Congress to reform immigration.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:56
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Ytlaya posted:As I think I said before, people should be assuming by default that conditions at the border are no less bad than they were under Trump or Obama. This is a situation where you should obviously assume things are bad unless the government provides persuasive evidence otherwise (and the lack of press access should be a huge red flag, and having scheduled future press access to a single facility certainly doesn't change that). Trump's DHS literally went to court to try and force immigrants to share toothbrushes and didn't see a need for them to shower. And that's just a start.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:02
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Fritz the Horse posted:What seems most likely to me is a right-winger CBP employee leaked the (very much real) photos to Veritas instead of a legitimate outlet because they want to push the right-wing narrative that Biden is creating this crisis by allowing the minors in instead of refusing them entry and forcing them to camp out in Mexican border towns. Exactly, their argument is essentially that both parties are the same despite it not being remotely true especially in this circumstance.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:04
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https://twitter.com/DailyMail/status/1374794623365869579 Kamala being put in charge of closing the border
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Mar 24, 2021 19:49
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Trump's DHS literally went to court to try and force immigrants to share toothbrushes and didn't see a need for them to shower. The particular lawsuit was an appeal of a 2017 decision. A 2017 decision asking for the enforcement of a 2015 lawsuit. You can read about it here: https://www.aila.org/File/Related/14111359v.pdf So, just to make it perfectly clear, so that you fully understand what we are talking about, and decide whether it's really about "Trump's DHS." In 2015, there was a lawsuit called Flores v Lynch. Lynch as in Loretta Lynch, Obama's AG. That lawsuit was about the unsanitary and unsafe conditions in detention centers, indefinite detention of children, and family separation, and how they violated the Flores settlement. The federal government lost the case and then appealed to the 9th circuit court of appeals. In that appeal, the case was reversed in part, affirmed in part. The part that was reversed was that the Obama administration successfully argued that that whole thing about sanitary conditions and no indefinite detention based on the Flores settlement did not apply to adults. So the Obama administration "won" the right to not provide sanitary and safe conditions to adults and to be able to hold them indefinitely. But they lost it with regards to both accompanied and unaccompanied minors. http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/07/06/15-56434.pdf To be very clear, here is what the Obama administration had appealed: quote:In 2015, Flores moved to enforce the Settlement, arguing that it applied to all minors in the custody of immigration authorities. The district court agreed, granted the motion to enforce, and rejected the government’s alternative motion to modify the Settlement. The court ordered the government to: (1) make “prompt and continuous efforts toward family reunification,” (2) release class members without unnecessary delay, (3) detain class members in appropriate facilities, (4) release an accompanying parent when releasing a child unless the parent is subject to mandatory detention or poses a safety risk or a significant flight risk, (5) monitor compliance with detention conditions, and (6) provide class counsel with monthly statistical information. The government appealed, challenging the district court’s holding that the Settlement applied to all minors in immigration custody, its order to release parents, and its denial of the motion to modify. So after the loss that said that the Obama administration could not hold children indefinitely in unsanitary conditions, the federal government did nothing to comply with the legal order. So the plaintiffs went to court again to ask the courts to enforce the decision. In October of 2016, the plaintiffs asked the courts to enforce the judgement. This was what was decided in 2017: https://www.aila.org/File/Related/14111359v.pdf Which said that, indeed, the government should follow the court decision. That is when the Trump administration appealed again to not have to comply with the 2015 decision. So, again, just to make it very clear, when you say that "Trump's DHS went to court," what you are referring to is a legal case that started when a lawsuit was filed under Obama, who lost and appealed. They then lost part of the appeal, but did not comply with the decision, so the plaintiffs went to court again, still under Obama. The federal government lost, and then under Trump decided to appeal the enforcement decision. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 19:55
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the 2016 lover posted:https://twitter.com/DailyMail/status/1374794623365869579 LOL really showing your hand by revealing that you have the Daily Heil on your twitter feed. Here's an actually reliable source(which says the same): https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2021/mar/24/joe-biden-gun-control-boulder-colorado-covid-coronavirus-healthcare-live-updates
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Mar 24, 2021 19:56
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Jaxyon posted:LOL really showing your hand by revealing that you have the Daily Heil on your twitter feed. Okay, any thoughts on the story, either the version in the link that was sent to me or the one you posted which you said is the same? Or just angryposting into the void about posters? I'll start: I think the framing of "stemming the flow" is repugnant and dehumanizing, and a further example of the Biden admin's policy of "The border is closed." Also, I think it's a massive liability for Harris to put her directly in charge of this and will probably hurt her status as a "rising star" (not something I particularly care about, as I don't care for her).
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Mar 24, 2021 20:05
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Jaxyon posted:LOL really showing your hand by revealing that you have the Daily Heil on your twitter feed. 'here's another source that says the exact same thing about this international headline, but you're an rear end in a top hat for posting it from the bad place and not the guardian, who has a stellar rep for not platforming fascism' As for the substance of the topic this is a pathetic handoff, the VP isn't in charge of anything here, Biden is head of every agency involved, he's just passing it off because he has no answers and knows for some reason the media likes when Harris does her weird little cackle to avoid answering questions more than they like his stammering and 'look, fat' brain farts. Also framing it as if the 'flow' is the problem is some classic nationalist bullshit, glad Joe's still the same old segregationist gently caress he's always been. The 'flow' is actually lighter than it's been!
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Mar 24, 2021 20:06
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