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THS posted:what are you talking about? i am not making a value judgement i am pointing out relative increases in rhetoric and tone, and in negative public perceptions over time. this literally has happened every time an economically dominant power has had its hegemony threaded like holy poo poo dude you can trace this poo poo back all the way to the peloponnesian wars
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Mar 25, 2021 00:28
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Gringostar posted:this literally has happened every time an economically dominant power has had its hegemony threaded I think the disconnect here is that you keep wanting to make this some kind of natural phenomenon instead of something that is being manufactured by the fascists in charge of America.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:29
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Chomskyan posted:The coronavirus did have a hand in raising animosity against China, but specifically because western politicians and media weaponized that fact to stir up a sinophobic reaction. It’s obvious to anyone not brain dead that China isn’t to blame for a novel virus originating in its territory. And despite much bluster from from the western press, China was able to provide information about the virus to the US and Europe, up to and including its genetic sequencing, early enough to give a real edge to those countries in their response. But those states have utterly failed in their response and thus seek to scapegoat China yeah i really fail to see how a combination of trade war / unfair currency manipulation xinjiang genocide covid hong kong protests pivot to asia / military focus on “protecting our allies” aren’t all part of the same narrative of the US absolutely flipping out that we might (will) lose the “top spot” in the world economy, and then in technology, and then in military capability. if you don’t think that hostile rhetoric in the media has caused a manufacturing consent toward confronting china now - wait a few years! yet i suspect some people will still say stuff like “well I remember back in the day people were worried about china too.. so it’s probably basically the same thing now”
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Mar 25, 2021 00:30
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a few DRUNK BONERS posted:I think the disconnect here is that you keep wanting to make this some kind of natural phenomenon instead of something that is being manufactured by the fascists in charge of America. https://i.imgur.com/fwjYNTW.gifv the point is that if you’re not looking at what’s happening between the us and china with a historical context it’s easy to assume that the us is somehow uniquely evil in engaging in what’s currently going on my point is that it’s not unique at all given a historical context Gringostar has issued a correction as of 00:34 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 00:32
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THS posted:it seems like an extremely simple observation backed up by polls i posted that general attitudes toward china have been worsening well before covid, and it seems extremely obvious that an imperial power on the decline relative to a rising one is going to increase hostile rhetoric toward its competitor. am i really going insane? none of this seems the least bit controversial to me!
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Mar 25, 2021 00:32
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I meant as a hypothetical. Sorry, my intent was to say that you’re right this has been going on for our entire lives. It used to be stories about starving kids in China. Then it was concerns about China’s growth rate continuing at the current pace. Then it was insisting that China’s growth was just a bubble. Now it’s fear-mongering about China having a larger navy and better economy than us. I think the tone has been slowly escalating the entire time. Kind of going through the stages of grief like. We passed denial a few years ago and are onto the anger phase. Us racist nations can’t emotionally handle being number two. And this, for the folks who were wondering earlier, is why racism is ultimately always irrational. Racism requires believing that people who look and act like yourself are better than than everybody else. This belief is often in conflict with reality. When your beliefs conflict with reality you either change your beliefs or you change your perception of reality. A skewed perception of reality leads to irrational behavior.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:32
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Gringostar posted:this literally has happened every time an economically dominant power has had its hegemony threaded and it’s bad! leftists should try to counter it so that we have some possibility of stopping a confrontation that could end Very Badly there is a real trend with some people of thinking that because something is “obvious” it shouldn’t be pointed out and emphasized. often the worst things are very obvious! yet somehow the ideology can become so thick and omnipresent that one ignores the obvious to their great detriment
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Mar 25, 2021 00:33
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Gringostar posted:it’s easy to assume that the us is somehow uniquely evil
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Mar 25, 2021 00:36
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Amerikkka is the most evil country in the world, and if you disagree dont post in this forum
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Mar 25, 2021 00:40
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Dustcat posted:Is the purpose of the thread to factually determine whether or not China is committing genocide? Because I think all we can do is quote Internet sources at each other, unless we want to send a delegation to Xinjiang to see if there's any genocide going on, and China is like sure guys come right in. For real, coming from the "I do not think poo poo in Xinjiang is going down how the US state dept says it's going down" side of things, there's nothing I can share that won't be instantly dismissed as propaganda because A) whatever narrative the west is driving enjoys an unquestioned monopoly on "legitimacy", and B) it is impossible to prove a negative. I can't prove China is not doing a genocide and and will therefore always be a genocide denier because the specific genocide in question was never explicitly disproven lol. It's not even like I'm super invested in the idea of China being super above board with its treatment of minority populations, but people need to appreciate that manufacturing consent on this level is going to get people killed. Sanctioning Xinjiang labor is just going to starve Uygurs and foment unrest, which is exactly the point. It's so nakedly transparent.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:42
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Algund Eenboom posted:Amerikkka is the most evil country in the world, and if you disagree dont post in this forum
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Mar 25, 2021 00:42
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Serf posted:this will never never happen because d&d runs things, but people aren't going to apologize for american crimes. they're going to hem and haw about how this is the way things are and there's no alternatives at the moment and we just have to keep voting blue and eventually something good will happen This is CSPAM. Start reporting anyone who says Biden is doing his best as a genocide denialist, let it all work out in the wash
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Mar 25, 2021 00:42
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THS posted:and it’s bad! leftists should try to counter it so that we have some possibility of stopping a confrontation that could end Very Badly i mean, yes? ive literally never said that the anti chinese rhetoric that’s been ramped up over the last several years has been good my point is that it shouldn’t be surprising to anyone with any historical knowledge beyond that of us public schools also anyone with any historical knowledge beyond that of us public schools should realize that literally every major power turns into loving monsters in order to maintain their hegemonic rule and that being skeptical that somehow china being the new boss is going to break that cycle because leftists somehow know better now this time is naive as hell again though, luckily humanity will be going extinct soon so this debate is entirely academic over who is going to lord over our final demise
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Mar 25, 2021 00:42
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Is Kim Jong Un also the victim of anti-communist lies? should we bring back the tibetan class system?
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Mar 25, 2021 00:43
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Gringostar posted:i mean, yes? im mostly arguing against people denying the rhetoric is ramping up to begin with. but 2ndly, if you’re such a doomer why even care
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Mar 25, 2021 00:45
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Judakel posted:should we bring back the tibetan class system? Tibetans say no.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:46
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Hairy Marionette posted:Tibetans say no. They're a part of China, so luckily no one can bring it back.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:48
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Nobody here has denied that the rhetoric is ramping up. It feels like the tone of the argument in this thread has gone from "there's no genocide" to "ohh you mean CULTURAL genocide" to "well it's bad to talk about it because it might lead to war between the US and China." But I assume that's just us working through our different assumptions and motivations and assumptions of each others' motivations.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:51
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Gringostar posted:again though, luckily humanity will be going extinct soon so this debate is entirely academic over who is going to lord over our final demise it seems like you have bigger issues to deal with than the moderation of a subset of these dying gay comedy forums
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Mar 25, 2021 00:51
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Gringostar posted:i mean, yes? China has guaranteed housing, universal(legally, practically almost universal) healthcare, free education. The current leader of China is a man born to a father which was sent to compulsory labor, yet still managed to work his way up in the party to become it's leader. The Chinese state has reformed itself politically and economically to better correspond with how the people want it to run several times since Mao died. The trade deals they make as a part of the Belt and Road is much more mutually beneficial than any loan ever given from the US or the IMF on behalf of the US. China is starting out from a more humanitarian point than the US has ever been at, even if you include the worst of western media imagines of Xinjiang onto their crime bill. They're not good, they're just not straight up evil to the core like the US is.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:51
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Judakel posted:They're a part of China, so luckily no one can bring it back. Your conclusion doesn’t follow from your premise.
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Mar 25, 2021 00:52
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Flavius Aetass posted:a thread with "don't be a dickhead" as its #1 rule 
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Mar 25, 2021 00:55
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THS posted:im mostly arguing against people denying the rhetoric is ramping up to begin with. but 2ndly, if you’re such a doomer why even care i mean, literally no one in this thread has been denying that it’s been happening so i don’t know why you’d have to
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Mar 25, 2021 00:59
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Serf posted:it seems like you have bigger issues to deal with than the moderation of a subset of these dying gay comedy forums 
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Mar 25, 2021 01:01
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Hairy Marionette posted:Your conclusion doesn’t follow from your premise. It really does.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:02
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fanfic insert posted:China has guaranteed housing, universal(legally, practically almost universal) healthcare, free education. The current leader of China is a man born to a father which was sent to compulsory labor, yet still managed to work his way up in the party to become it's leader. The Chinese state has reformed itself politically and economically to better correspond with how the people want it to run several times since Mao died. The trade deals they make as a part of the Belt and Road is much more mutually beneficial than any loan ever given from the US or the IMF on behalf of the US. lol, no they’re loving not
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Mar 25, 2021 01:02
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Gringostar posted:i mean, literally no one in this thread has been denying that it’s been happening so i don’t know why you’d have to spiderhyphenman was sharing his anecdotal thoughts that it has not risen aside from anti-covid racism (and that nothing has changed regarding “china will take over the world” rhetoric since his high school days) - and you similarly attributed the rise to only covid and trump, 1) despite the public perception going far south way before that, and 2) despite the fact that covid being politicized by the american ruling class being highly relevant and hardly worth pointing out as something that makes that increasing hostility less important
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Mar 25, 2021 01:02
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even when "china was gonna take over the world" it was always just treated like mandarin was gonna become the lingua franca or some poo poo, and nothing else would change much
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Mar 25, 2021 01:04
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fanfic insert posted:China has guaranteed housing, universal(legally, practically almost universal) healthcare, free education. The current leader of China is a man born to a father which was sent to compulsory labor, yet still managed to work his way up in the party to become it's leader. The Chinese state has reformed itself politically and economically to better correspond with how the people want it to run several times since Mao died. The trade deals they make as a part of the Belt and Road is much more mutually beneficial than any loan ever given from the US or the IMF on behalf of the US. The US isn’t evil to the core. We’re dominated by racists, but there have been rare occasions of us approaching our ideals. And they are good ideals. This is the strongest defense I can mount of the USA. Your central thesis, that China is less evil than the US is born out by history.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:04
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why try to argue that covid is the main factor when its only been a factor the last year and there’s a whole kaleidoscope of anti-china narratives including, xinjiang, unfair trade, general unease at a rising non-white power, stealing technology, taiwan, hong kong protests, i could go on. i was arguing against imagining there was some aberration or that we should downplay the anti-china sentiment somehow because of covid or trump
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Mar 25, 2021 01:05
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THS posted:spiderhyphenman was sharing his anecdotal thoughts that it has not risen aside from anti-covid racism (and that nothing has changed regarding “china will take over the world” rhetoric since his high school days) - and you similarly attributed the rise to only covid and trump, 1) despite the public perception going far south way before that, and 2) despite the fact that covid being politicized by the american ruling class being highly relevant and hardly worth pointing out as something that makes that increasing hostility less important bull loving poo poo ive said there are other factors such as trump and covid, not that those are the only ones
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Mar 25, 2021 01:06
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THS posted:spiderhyphenman was sharing his anecdotal thoughts that it has not risen aside from anti-covid racism (and that nothing has changed regarding “china will take over the world” rhetoric since his high school days) - and you similarly attributed the rise to only covid and trump, 1) despite the public perception going far south way before that, and 2) despite the fact that covid being politicized by the american ruling class being highly relevant and hardly worth pointing out as something that makes that increasing hostility less important
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Mar 25, 2021 01:07
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Judakel posted:It really does. China could lose control of Tibet and theocrats could take control again. Or, though this seems very unlikely, China could enforce some form of theocratic self rule on Tibet. Becoming a Chinese Provence is not an end of history sort of thing. To suggest such is to engage in the same arrogance that America has been engaging in for the past eighty years.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:07
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fanfic insert posted:China has guaranteed housing, universal(legally, practically almost universal) healthcare, free education. The current leader of China is a man born to a father which was sent to compulsory labor, yet still managed to work his way up in the party to become it's leader. The Chinese state has reformed itself politically and economically to better correspond with how the people want it to run several times since Mao died. The trade deals they make as a part of the Belt and Road is much more mutually beneficial than any loan ever given from the US or the IMF on behalf of the US. This is a good example of the issue. The US government line is bullshit manufactured consent nonsense meant to provoke hostility towards China so they can get away with whatever. But, so is what's coming out of China, just in the other way. Like half of this post is so insanely untrue about China, so clearly so that I think you could figure it out from a layover in Beijing. But it's a lot more effective on C-Spam because you can't really expect most of an English speaking forum to be in China or something. We should probably be critical of US and any other state backed reporting, entirely, on everything, and probably mod with that in mind. It makes sense to me for that to be the right way to do things in a leftist forum.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:08
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I remember in 2012 when Obama called China the greatest geopolitical foe the United States has and that Mitt Romney was full of poo poo to say that he'd be tough on China. Everyone clapped. Americans never perceived China as an ally or even a neutral entity. i am arguing, backed by polls and increasing military tension, as well as cultural tension over china actually overtaking us economically, and covid, and xinjiang, that it is far worse in 2021 than whatever you remember in 2012
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Mar 25, 2021 01:08
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i really think the degree to which china has become public enemy number 1, as quickly as it has, is incredibly dangerous, incredibly bad, and it doesn’t matter if you don’t think it’s “surprising” or that “it’s how things go” or that “we are all doomed anyway”
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Mar 25, 2021 01:12
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THS posted:i really think the degree to which china has become public enemy number 1, as quickly as it has, is incredibly dangerous, incredibly bad, and it doesn’t matter if you don’t think it’s “surprising” or that it’s how things go” or that “we are all doomed anyway” Ultimately, this should probably be one of the main concerns when it comes to moderation on the issue.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:13
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Hairy Marionette posted:China could lose control of Tibet and theocrats could take control again. Or, though this seems very unlikely, China could enforce some form of theocratic self rule on Tibet. Becoming a Chinese Provence is not an end of history sort of thing. To suggest such is to engage in the same arrogance that America has been engaging in for the past eighty years. Under the control of China, that class system does not return.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:14
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I remember in 2012 when Obama called China the greatest geopolitical foe the United States has and that Mitt Romney was full of poo poo to say that he'd be tough on China. Everyone clapped. Americans never perceived China as an ally or even a neutral entity. and of course this was correct even then, i mean "china will take over the world" is not just antichinese propaganda, it's also now a reasonable assessment of the likely shift in global power in the 21st century, as america's elites grift themselves into oblivion through financializing and offshoring every real asset in america
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Mar 25, 2021 01:14
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THS posted:i really think the degree to which china has become public enemy number 1, as quickly as it has, is incredibly dangerous, incredibly bad, and it doesn’t matter if you don’t think it’s “surprising” or that “it’s how things go” or that “we are all doomed anyway” maybe if you arrange all of this information in a misspelling of the word "trump" they will understand, op
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Mar 25, 2021 01:16
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