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Hairy Marionette posted:The US isn’t evil to the core. We’re dominated by racists, but there have been rare occasions of us approaching our ideals. And they are good ideals. This is the strongest defense I can mount of the USA. Your central thesis, that China is less evil than the US is born out by history. arguing over who is "more evil" is pointless because you'll never agree on a metric, and doing it with countries, which are not actors with agency, is even sillier
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Mar 25, 2021 01:16
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BrainDance posted:This is a good example of the issue. The US government line is bullshit manufactured consent nonsense meant to provoke hostility towards China so they can get away with whatever. What exactly would be obvious from a layover in Beijing? Ive been in China and I saw a total of 4 homeless people with serious mental issues. I've also been in the US and it took as about 15 minutes driving away from the middle class enclave to drive past at least a couple dozen homeless. Guaranteed healthcare is enshrined into law even if it doesnt yet reach everyone everywhere. Is the story of Xi false? Have they not reformed economically and politically in order to quell internal dissatisfaction? Was Yanis Varoufakis wrong when he said he was approached with open arms by the chinese when he wanted to renegotiate their deal but when doing the same with western banks was told that democratic elections must not be allowed to dictate economic policy? What exactly was obviously wrong with the post? If youre going to make that statement at least provide one simple example. Edit; the problem is that even giving the mildest kudos to the chinese for doing rational things most of the industrial world does gets a knee jerk reactions from americans going "that cant be true" because youre so primed to think not a single good thing can possibly happen in china. fanfic insert has issued a correction as of 01:19 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 01:16
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THS posted:i really think the degree to which china has become public enemy number 1, as quickly as it has, is incredibly dangerous, incredibly bad, and it doesn’t matter if you don’t think it’s “surprising” or that “it’s how things go” or that “we are all doomed anyway” again though, who the gently caress is saying that it’s not bad other than those fine and honest people at the us state department? the state department thing was sarcasm just so we’re on the same page
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Mar 25, 2021 01:17
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BrainDance posted:This is a good example of the issue. The US government line is bullshit manufactured consent nonsense meant to provoke hostility towards China so they can get away with whatever. nah that is pretty much all true with the exception of healthcare which is a convoluted multi payer mess depending on the region, but still so much preferable to what we have here. also healthcare, like education is something that china hasnt come close to achieving parity with the US
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Mar 25, 2021 01:17
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it’s also dangerous to imagine you can’t go to war with a major trading partner. world powers are no more rational now than they were before world war 1. things can escalate in ways which seem irrational to detached analysis. a cold war will be bad for everyone, and don’t imagine that states aren’t capable of ruining what seems to be prosperous and money-making in favor of geopolitical brinksmanship and regular human folly
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Mar 25, 2021 01:17
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If we’re the leftist forum we claim to be we should attempt to counter the propagandist narrative that’s intended to drum up support for empire on empire hostilities. At the same time, China is an empire just like the US is. And it’s fair to treat it with the same distrust with which we treat our own empire. China is doing a genocide that’s roughly comparable (within an order of magnitude either way) to our genocide is a tough statement to be passionate about.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:19
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Dustcat posted:arguing over who is "more evil" is pointless because you'll never agree on a metric, and doing it with countries, which are not actors with agency, is even sillier exactly all states are evil and all dominant powers are monstrous regardless of how they started out
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Mar 25, 2021 01:21
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THS posted:i really think the degree to which china has become public enemy number 1, as quickly as it has, is incredibly dangerous, incredibly bad, and it doesn’t matter if you don’t think it’s “surprising” or that “it’s how things go” or that “we are all doomed anyway” Can we please define this timescale? Because if I'm reading this chart right,  It seems that prior to covid, public opinion on who the greatest threat to world peace is was pretty evenly divided between Russia, China, and Iran, which I feel lines up with the status quo of the 2010s.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:22
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Nix Panicus posted:As a corollary, start ramping up probes for any apologists for the US penal or immigration systems. literally no one does this in cspam. Every time xinjiang comes up people invent these US apologists that don't exist here to handwave / justify their own dismissal of the topic
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Mar 25, 2021 01:23
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Can we please define this timescale? Because if I'm reading this chart right, what was the other poll i posted in that same post you just quoted. did you not earlier, just the last page, give someone poo poo for only quoting part of your post
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Mar 25, 2021 01:23
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Serf posted:until relatively recently i never heard anyone talk about china as anything other than "that communist country where they make all our stuff" and only in the past few years have i begun to see and hear people talking about china as a threat to the united states There were a ton of attempts to jumpstart The Cold War Again But Vs China at the start of the W. Bush administration right up through about September 10, 2001.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:24
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THS posted:normal poo poo: SpiderHyphenMan posted:Also good job partially quoting a single sentence. That's definitely something someone operating in good faith does.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:24
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The only point I will give to China w/r/t their camps is that mainstream Islam is essentially under siege by Wahhabists funded by the Sauds, and they love throwing money at random groups to spread their faith no matter how dangerous those groups may be.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:26
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Judakel posted:Under the control of China, that class system does not return. Perhaps, but under the control of China people felt the need to set themselves on fire.  China did Maoism once, they can do similar again.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:27
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also why treat covid as an aberration that “explains” why the anti-china sentiment has gotten so badChomskyan posted:The coronavirus did have a hand in raising animosity against China, but specifically because western politicians and media weaponized that fact to stir up a sinophobic reaction. It’s obvious to anyone not brain dead that China isn’t to blame for a novel virus originating in its territory. And despite much bluster from from the western press, China was able to provide information about the virus to the US and Europe, up to and including its genetic sequencing, early enough to give a real edge to those countries in their response. But those states have utterly failed in their response and thus seek to scapegoat China
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Mar 25, 2021 01:27
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docbeard posted:There were a ton of attempts to jumpstart The Cold War Again But Vs China at the start of the W. Bush administration right up through about September 10, 2001. hell, the tpp was mostly about cutting chinas economic growth off at the knees by encouraging investment in its neighbors and other pacific oceanic states i mean, it was also about enforcing draconian us copyright laws but most people didn’t know about the former
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Mar 25, 2021 01:29
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Judakel posted:Under the control of China, that class system does not return. This post also sucks, because it denies the Tibetans any autonomy and dictates the Chinese takeover in '50 as essentially 'bringing civilization to the savages'. Like it comes with a very heavy implication that Tibet could never and would never by itself throw off the theocracy, and it needed a foreign hand to do so.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:30
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:nah that is pretty much all true with the exception of healthcare which is a convoluted multi payer mess depending on the region, but still so much preferable to what we have here. also healthcare, like education is something that china hasnt come close to achieving parity with the US That's a very big exception though, especially the way it was described compared to the reality of Chinese healthcare. I imagine someone describing the ACA as meaning the same for America, and how ridiculous that would sound. It's subsidized to some extent in every province, which is great I guess, but far from accessible given the wages of Chinese people outside Shanghai. I can't think of a province where this is not true, but maybe some of the far western regions have special schemes? Education too is... Somewhat free, in some ways and in some places, but not in any way thats actually worth celebrating given all the ways it's not. That stuff about Xi's dad yeah that's true and all. Doesn't really seem to matter much for the average Chinese person though, so I don't really give a poo poo about that kind of stuff.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:30
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To be explicit: you are absolutely correct that American's opinions on China have been greatly influenced as their economic power has become more undeniable. I do not think those numbers are cause to say that China has been the undisputed public enemy number one in America the way they are now prior to covid.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:30
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:To be explicit: you are absolutely correct that American's opinions on China have been greatly influenced as their economic power has become more undeniable. I do not think those numbers are cause to say that China has been the undisputed public enemy number one in America the way they are now prior to covid. well now they are public enemy number one, and if the media and government combined obsession with the perils and evils of china continue apace, we should pay very close attention this attempt to manufacture consent for conflict with china - and do our best to stridently oppose it however we can
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Mar 25, 2021 01:33
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THS posted:well now they are public enemy number one, and if the media and government combined obsession with the perils and evils of china continue apace, we should pay very close attention this attempt to manufacture consent for conflict with china - and do our best to stridently oppose it however we can 
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Mar 25, 2021 01:34
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and that includes pointing out when media narratives are being overblown, warped, manufactured, or whatever, as part of this attempt to increase public animosity toward china
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Mar 25, 2021 01:34
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BrainDance posted:That's a very big exception though, especially the way it was described compared to the reality of Chinese healthcare. I imagine someone describing the ACA as meaning the same for America, and how ridiculous that would sound. It's subsidized to some extent in every province, which is great I guess, but far from accessible given the wages of Chinese people outside Shanghai. I can't think of a province where this is not true, but maybe some of the far western regions have special schemes? yeah its not something to admire or anything, but even with their economic growth and reaching/surpassing the US in many ways, there are still areas where they are considered a developing country. because they are! it shouldnt be a mark against them until they start moving backwards
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Mar 25, 2021 01:35
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BrainDance posted:That's a very big exception though, especially the way it was described compared to the reality of Chinese healthcare. I imagine someone describing the ACA as meaning the same for America, and how ridiculous that would sound. It's subsidized to some extent in every province, which is great I guess, but far from accessible given the wages of Chinese people outside Shanghai. I can't think of a province where this is not true, but maybe some of the far western regions have special schemes? Okay so youve done some googling now that you scrolled past my post. The healthcare bit is enshrined in law, its legally your right as a citizen to have access to healthcare. its a goal and they're making progress on it and i even implied it wasnt universal in the first post. the ACA is a completely different thing since it very specifically excludes a whole lot of people. The Chinese literally goes out of their way to make it a basic human right. But its the same issue as the education, its a big country and it takes a while to build things when youve been a colony of foreign states for as long as they were. I mean, how can you seriously look at the ways the US is actively limiting who has access to either of those two, and then look at what china is doing to expand access to it, and still claim the US is somehow better, its mind boggling to me. The stuff on Xi's dad? Imagine youre a kid growing up in america, father is sent to jail and youre raised in extreme poverty, what are the odds you end up as President of America? Absolutely loving zero. fanfic insert has issued a correction as of 01:40 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 01:37
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THS posted:and that includes pointing out when media narratives are being overblown, warped, manufactured, or whatever, as part of this attempt to increase public animosity toward china I agree but I do not believe that the path to doing this effectively involves takes about how the CCP is actually Good.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:37
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:yeah its not something to admire or anything, but even with their economic growth and reaching/surpassing the US in many ways, there are still areas where they are considered a developing country. because they are! it shouldnt be a mark against them until they start moving backwards China certainly deserves more latitude regarding healthcare than the US. That our systems are comparable says a lot more about the US than it does about China.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:38
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Grapplejack posted:The only point I will give to China w/r/t their camps is that mainstream Islam is essentially under siege by Wahhabists funded by the Sauds, and they love throwing money at random groups to spread their faith no matter how dangerous those groups may be. how do we define mainstream Islam Hairy Marionette posted:Perhaps, but under the control of China people felt the need to set themselves on fire. That's a Buddhist monk protesting what he saw as persecution by the Catholic leadership of South Vietnam.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:38
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Hairy Marionette posted:China certainly deserves more latitude regarding healthcare than the US. That our systems are comparable says a lot more about the US than it does about China.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:38
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Hairy Marionette posted:Perhaps, but under the control of China people felt the need to set themselves on fire. You have no clue what you're talking about.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:39
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THS posted:and that includes pointing out when media narratives are being overblown, warped, manufactured, or whatever, as part of this attempt to increase public animosity toward china honestly we should be skeptical of any media narrative that any state is pushing and instead try to find out what’s actually happening through the use of independent journalism or at least try to find as unbiased sources as possible prior to accepting anything as fact
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Mar 25, 2021 01:39
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Atrocious Joe posted:That's a Buddhist monk protesting what he saw as persecution by the Catholic leadership of South Vietnam. lmao
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Mar 25, 2021 01:40
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Actually it's an album cover
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Mar 25, 2021 01:41
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fanfic insert posted:The stuff on Xi's dad? Imagine youre a kid growing up in america, father is sent to jail and youre raised in extreme poverty, what are the odds you end up as President of America? Absolutely loving zero. yeah the US hasn't had revolutions and political purges in a while, most of our imprisoned are there for racist reasons
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Mar 25, 2021 01:41
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Hot Karl Marx posted:Actually it's an album cover https://i.imgur.com/lFu06in.gifv
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Mar 25, 2021 01:43
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Gringostar posted:hell, the tpp was mostly about cutting chinas economic growth off at the knees by encouraging investment in its neighbors and other pacific oceanic states A contender for funniest moment of Trump's presidency to me is him killing the TPP because he thought it was a trade giveaway to China.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:43
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Grapplejack posted:This post also sucks, because it denies the Tibetans any autonomy and dictates the Chinese takeover in '50 as essentially 'bringing civilization to the savages'. Like it comes with a very heavy implication that Tibet could never and would never by itself throw off the theocracy, and it needed a foreign hand to do so. Perhaps it wouldn't return, since many do not want it to return. However, the point was that Chinese control guarantees it to a much greater degree than independence. No denying people do not want it to come back, but that doesn't always stop theocracies.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:44
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Dustcat posted:yeah the US hasn't had revolutions and political purges in a while, most of our imprisoned are there for racist reasons Actually,  since weed was criminalized to crack down on minorities and hippies, anyone in jail related to weed-crimes is a political prisoner as well as racist reasons. So nah youve got that going also.
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Mar 25, 2021 01:44
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docbeard posted:A contender for funniest moment of Trump's presidency to me is him killing the TPP because he thought it was a trade giveaway to China. once again us racism is the cause of its downfall
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Mar 25, 2021 01:44
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fanfic insert posted:Actually, fair, but although nixon's intent was to crack down on hippies, guess what it immediately turned into
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Mar 25, 2021 01:45
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Hairy Marionette posted:Perhaps, but under the control of China people felt the need to set themselves on fire. Atrocious Joe posted:That's a Buddhist monk protesting what he saw as persecution by the Catholic leadership of South Vietnam. lolllll
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Mar 25, 2021 01:45
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