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CornHolio posted:I really can't believe I'm considering staying. You've got an unhealthy relationship with your work where you are not thinking about it purely in the context of you exchanging your time for some money, but I assure you that's exactly what your present job thinks of you. If you are this torn up over getting an additional $20k / year, maybe you can use some of that money to start visiting a therapist to resolve your feelings about making more money from different exploitative capitalists.
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Mar 24, 2021 16:59
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content, stale, and not developing
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Mar 24, 2021 17:01
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There are better jobs than others and 20k doesn’t mean much if you hate your job. Money very quickly becomes normalized. That said, it does sound like you’re just afraid of change here.
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Mar 24, 2021 17:16
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:It makes me wonder if it might be a better measure of past (or present) jobs to see how many folks you keep in touch with. I still have several from my last job, but I’m not sure I’d have anyone from either of my current gigs. Makes u think. I don't really think so. You naturally drift away from folks when you don't work with them, even if you are good friends. Especially if you move towns. Heck just with the pandemic I have been in contact with way less people and not sure I will ever see them again.
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Mar 24, 2021 17:18
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I’m quitting my current job in a few weeks and had been thinking about staying in contact more. I’d put past coworkers in a few tiers: 1. Friends I talk to daily (stay in contact via text message/Instagram/social media) 2. Friendly, but we mostly just talk about work (Maybe friends on social media) 3. Colleagues, people I don’t really care about but work with (LinkedIn) 4. gently caress you (  )
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Mar 24, 2021 17:29
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Outside the context of forced work interaction it's amazing how many work friends aren't actually your real friends, even if they feel that way day to day. Many of them are just people you shoot the poo poo and commiserate with because they are who happen to be around. I've been fortunate to like many/most of the people I've worked with, and each time I've changed jobs I've agonized over "great people or money/career". I totally get it. But I've also found that there are great people all over the place. All those old work friends got replaced with new ones. And I'm sure most of them will get replaced again eventually. The handful of folks that I actually built a meaningful friendship with (or at least business relationship) I do still talk to, but by and large everyone else faded away. Completely normal. We've all got our own lives. The only part in your situation, CornHolio, that gives me a little pause is that you aren't excited about the new job. I think the important question to ask is whether it's actually the company/work that you are not excited about, or is it carry-over attachment from the "people" aspect of your current job? If you are truly not excited about the job I understand not taking it. But don't let your feeling of attachment to your current coworkers cloud your judgement on that. A lot of jobs are all kind of the same thing just in different flavors. Changing is always hard but I think it's often a good challenge personally and for your career. Ideally you can find things you enjoy, or at least get satisfaction from, in any job and the company/culture doesn't grind you down too badly. Through that lens, it's really hard to say that a job that pays 20% less for the "same" work is better. My most recent job change was the hardest because I was leaving a small company of 7 years where I knew everyone, to a much more corporate job in a different sector coming in at a high-ish level. But the money difference was simply not possible to ignore. It was hard to press reset and do all that relationship building and knowledge gathering again, but I can say that it has been completely worth it. More than I imagined. Guinness fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 17:38
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Yeah, there are good people everywhere. And the people you know and like at your current job will not stay there forever. Remember that you are always one bad new boss away from hating your current job, even if things are going great.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:15
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Guinness posted:
I'm not too keen on the company, really. I'm sure it's a great company and I'm sure there's great people there, but I'd be designing RV refrigerators. Honestly that sounds like awful boring work for an industry I generally hate and have successfully avoided until now. And I get the feeling that as soon as the RV industry turns south, I'd be out the door. As much of a mess as my current job is, I like what we build at least. It's kind of a niche industry but they're somewhat well poised for EV delivery vehicles (think Rivian, but with actual history of manufacturing things). I think in terms of thefuture I'd be safer here. And if I stick around and get the manager of R/D and testing like has been suggested (and that role almost has to be promoted from within), that would put me in a pretty good position for either staying or moving on. The real question is... am I just justifying a decision I've already made? Am I just too afraid of leaving my comfort zone? Or are my qualms real? If I do nothing and stay I'll be happy and content. If I leave I'll make more money for at least a short time. I do think the fact that I'm not at all excited about it is telling, but maybe I'm just weak. It doesn't help that the few people I've talked to that have actually worked there hated it.
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Mar 24, 2021 18:43
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It sounds like you shouldn't take that job but maybe keep looking for better pay + industry you're excited for?
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Mar 24, 2021 18:50
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Xguard86 posted:It sounds like you shouldn't take that job but maybe keep looking for better pay + industry you're excited for? Somewhat inclined to agree. If the other company is a known quantity, is not the type of work you want to be doing, and you have several insiders that say it sucks rear end perhaps it is not worth it if it can't be justified as a career stepping stone. Sounds like even if you do get that R&D Manager position that it won't be much of a pay raise. But it would be a great title to parley into a bigger, better job elsewhere. But don't let them string you along for years. Guinness fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Mar 24, 2021 |
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Mar 24, 2021 18:55
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CornHolio posted:As much of a mess as my current job is, I like what we build at least. It's kind of a niche industry but they're somewhat well poised for EV delivery vehicles (think Rivian, but with actual history of manufacturing things). I think in terms of thefuture I'd be safer here. And if I stick around and get the manager of R/D and testing like has been suggested (and that role almost has to be promoted from within), that would put me in a pretty good position for either staying or moving on. If your current company was capable of a successful pivot to EV they wouldn't be loving about with extant product + BMW i3 drivetrain. Your current company isn't innovative and all this other stuff is a pipe dream or lies. Not saying you should take the Dometic job necessarily, but at minimum you should keep looking. If you want automotive, you're going to have to move. You could actually work at Rivian, by all accounts a good and interesting place to work that is actually doing interesting and innovative things rather than stuffing BMW EV powertrains in to Ford commercial vehicle chassis.
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Mar 24, 2021 19:38
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So I had a lengthy conversation with somebody that came from there and they think I should do it. It's a poo poo show and most of it is dealing with China (which she hated) but the guy that would be my boss is apparently a great guy. She was there less than three years though and didn't say why she left. I don't loving know. I'm gonna give myself a goddamn aneurism.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:06
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A good rule of thumb is that if two things look about equally good, you should pick the one that requires change. This is because your brain has a preference for what you know, also known as a conservative bias. So if new job and staying put sound about equal, chances are new job is actually better. Anecdotally, my previous job had everything, great colleagues, meaningful work, career progression, work live balance, benefits and so forth (pay wasn't great in retrospective, but eh, I didn't really care at the time). However, my boss was one of two bad bosses in the organisation, and I couldn't deal with her. So I switched jobs. The new job had a great boss, who was fired soon after I started, whereupon everything went to loving poo poo, I spent most of my time doing nothing while idiots decided idiocy and didn't tell what they wanted while the deadline approached. I got a serious take-a-month-off-doctor's-orders stress diagnosis from bad management and have now successfully landed a new job because gently caress that shithole. My point in all this is that I don't regret the initial change, despite everything getting worse. I wasn't happy, I wasn't gonna get happy, and while I sure as poo poo didn't get happier at the new place, it served as a stepping stone to something that hopefully makes me happy. Or at the very least richer I guess, but in that case it's another stepping stone. Keep going until you get to somewhere you want to be.
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Mar 24, 2021 20:38
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CornHolio posted:I really can't believe I'm considering staying. 401k match at new place? If so, how does it relate to your current company?
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Mar 24, 2021 21:09
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I've had 3 jobs over the last 3 years, having been at the job I left 3 years ago for a total of 7 years. I went from industry to consulting and back to industry. I now make 50% more than I did 3 years ago. I don't regret any of the job switches.
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Mar 24, 2021 21:52
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I’m kind of stuck the same way, new place contacted me, seems to really want me, and would be a big step up in responsibility with a chance to get the company’s US piece growing. But they can’t match dollars against the 2 jobs I’m working now, which are quite comfortable for what I’m earning. I’m talking a potential $30k cut, no. 401k match. I’ve been trying to figure out how to get some insight into new company’s operations and hardware (telematics) to get a better feel for what I’d be responsible for fielding, but not sure what’s kosher as far as research goes. For personal growth and engagement it seems like it might be worth a shot if they can bump salary a bit more, but at the same time my current spot is comfortable and while not 100% secure, looks to be for a while longer, at least. I’m not out to set the world on fire and prefer to be good at what I do as opposed to a go-getter, but I struggle with complacency versus stress.
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Mar 25, 2021 03:18
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Complacency and fear of change is turning down a raise to stay where you are. Turning down a pay cut is a whole different thing. Don't take a pay cut.
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Mar 25, 2021 03:22
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Yeah I can’t see taking a 30k+ pay cut no matter what. Maybe if a ton of equity was involved and I had a chance at spinning the IPO prize wheel.
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Mar 25, 2021 03:32
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True enough, there is a chance for growth and advancement (which I likely won’t have at either current gig) but the project has to go well and make other companies want to sign on, so no guarantee. If I were to lose one of my current, this new offer would top one by itself, but otherwise I’ve been struggling to make it add up. It’s a small company fighting against one major competitor with overwhelming market share, doesn’t feel too safe. I’m super not used to being sought out.
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Mar 25, 2021 04:25
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Do you have a chance to play the 'I've got my hands full with other projects , but I'd like to deploy and play with these new technoligies you work with, here's my contractor rates and I'm available ___x___ days per week?' card
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Mar 25, 2021 06:20
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Anyone have a recommended response if asked your current salary? I think I have a good handle on responding to questions about how much I'm looking for, but that question always gets me. My current employer used it to anchor my salary which is basically going to cost them.
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Mar 25, 2021 13:24
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Eric the Mauve posted:Complacency and fear of change is turning down a raise to stay where you are. Mine may very well have been that, but now that the door has closed on that I think I made the right choice. I design trucks right now. Like entire trucks. I'm basically head engineer here (though not management yet). We're developing some cool stuff. The company may have its problems and I occasionally hate it and my boss and everything else, but it pays me well enough so I don't have any debt, have good savings and can buy stupid bullshit on a regular basis. The new job paid much better but I'd be designing refrigerators for RVs. No matter how much I tried I couldn't get excited about it. Like, at all. Sure engineering is engineering, but apparently that kind of money wasn't enough to pull me into that industry. Oh well. downout posted:Anyone have a recommended response if asked your current salary? I think I have a good handle on responding to questions about how much I'm looking for, but that question always gets me. My current employer used it to anchor my salary which is basically going to cost them. I've always just politely declined to answer. They understand every time.
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Mar 25, 2021 13:26
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downout posted:Anyone have a recommended response if asked your current salary? How about, "Go gently caress yourself"
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Mar 25, 2021 13:29
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downout posted:Anyone have a recommended response if asked your current salary? I think I have a good handle on responding to questions about how much I'm looking for, but that question always gets me. My current employer used it to anchor my salary which is basically going to cost them. If those don't work. "I'm going to end this here because we're clearing looking for different things."
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Mar 25, 2021 14:46
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Dik Hz posted:"No thanks" "I'd rather not" "There's a reason I'm looking" Yep. Post #1 in this thread, the Original Post if you will, contains the timeless classic answer to the question: bolind posted:“Don’t tell them your current salary”
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Mar 25, 2021 15:13
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move to a cool and good jurisdiction where it's illegal barring that do what those guys said
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Mar 25, 2021 15:51
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yep. doh - thanks, somewhere deep in my subconscious something was yelling "go read the OP again!". It just didn't click where I'd seen those recommendations.
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Mar 25, 2021 16:25
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“Sorry, my employer considers compensation to be confidential information”
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Mar 25, 2021 16:58
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Shiat, I got quoted, grammar mistakes and all. Anyways, don’t disclose current salary, walk away if they press the issue. DO have a suitably shameless number prepared if they ask you what your expectations are. The less they’ve told you about the total package, the bigger the number, because you have to assume the worst.
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Mar 25, 2021 17:26
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downout posted:Anyone have a recommended response if asked your current salary? I think I have a good handle on responding to questions about how much I'm looking for, but that question always gets me. My current employer used it to anchor my salary which is basically going to cost them. Whenever anyone asks this question, I hear something pretty different: "I can't stand for a response to a job application to not end up with a job offer, and so I am terrified of adopting a position which may not align with the prospective company." Job interviews are not a test in school. If you don't end up finding a mutually beneficial outcome, then not getting an offer is a Good Thing. If the only way that an employer will extend you an offer is by you bending over for them by telling them your current salary, then standing your ground and that employer walking away is you helping yourself.
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Mar 28, 2021 14:02
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Whenever anyone asks this question, I hear something pretty different: It hasn't helped that my last few negotiations were not where I was in much of a position to negotiate. It was a job offer where and when I needed and generally included a good enough raise, just not as much as I wanted. I'll try to keep your point in mind in the future.
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Mar 28, 2021 21:30
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downout posted:It hasn't helped that my last few negotiations were not where I was in much of a position to negotiate. I think you answered your own question here- you simply weren't in a position to be able to apply good negotiation tactics. I believe the general consensus of this thread in those situations is basically "do what you have to do, take the job you can get, keep applying to other jobs- you now have a better BATNA since you have a job that is meeting your current bare-minimum needs."
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Mar 29, 2021 15:15
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m0therfux0r posted:I think you answered your own question here- you simply weren't in a position to be able to apply good negotiation tactics. I believe the general consensus of this thread in those situations is basically "do what you have to do, take the job you can get, keep applying to other jobs- you now have a better BATNA since you have a job that is meeting your current bare-minimum needs." Correct. If you internally think you have no good options, then you do not internally have the mindset necessary for negotiation; you need to be able to realistically visualize walking away from the deal. If you have no employment and you need to pay for poo poo and you have only one job offer, you aren't able to negotiate. You are able to put yourself in a position to be able to negotiate in the future.
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Mar 29, 2021 15:23
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My first job interview in *checks watch* 9 years tomorrow. Feels crazy, questions and negotiation. I was literally asking a discord "so, uh, what do I do if I get asked my salary" and got linked here. Thanks for the good OP, OP and contributors. I will be sure to avoid the pitfalls listed there, and instead fall into far dumber pitfalls like getting my own name wrong and then rolling with it instead of correcting it.
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Mar 30, 2021 07:12
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So I accepted an offer requiring relocation, put in my notice, and my last day is tomorrow. I got a call from the CEO telling me they fired the interim person that hired me and they don't even have my resume or offer letter that was agreed to, and the CEO is asking me for this stuff. I sent my resume asking if they planned to pull my offer, which received a response saying he isn't thinking of the offer being pulled but it needs to align with their standards etc etc word salad that was kind of embarrassing. Have a call scheduled tomorrow to go over in more detail my position responsibilities and I'm guessing to discuss what was offered to me, any advice here? I'm definitely bracing for a "well this is outside of what he was authorized to give, we can offer 10k less" whatever.
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Mar 30, 2021 21:33
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Yes that is exactly what is going to happen, if the offer isn't just pulled. That sucks incredibly hard, even if your current employer keeps you on they'll have lost all respect for you and will probably not even interrupt the process of hiring your replacement. Nevertheless I would not budge one iota from the already agreed-upon offer and would tell the CEO to go gently caress himself with a chainsaw, in those precise words, if he tried to renege on it. If someone pulled that poo poo on me I would go full scorched earth on them in every way I can think of. But maybe you don't feel you can do that in the circumstances. Just to clarify, though: Did you, in fact, receive a written offer letter? Because if not, then not to be overly harsh, but you should have seen this coming. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Mar 30, 2021 |
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Mar 30, 2021 21:36
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That is a *horrible* situation, jesus. You have, more or less, zero leverage and they know it. I'd recommend making sure you have an employment lawyer at least ready to call, because that sounds sketchy as *gently caress*.
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Mar 30, 2021 21:37
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Do you have a signed copy of the offer letter at least?
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Mar 30, 2021 21:38
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Yes, I have a signed copy of the negotiated offer letter, I wasn't basing this on any sort of verbal agreement. Not that naive but I do get the sentiment as this thread isn't exactly for the pros to learn from. I really can't get a read on whether they plan on trying to negotiate down (no loving way, I'll just walk) or are just trying to get a legitimate clue as to what I was offered which was nothing absurd - top end of posted range in advertisement was 79k, I negotiated to 84k. Lol I was going to come in here and post about my "victory" earlier too. Ah well my last day is tomorrow, but it's contract work anyway so it wasn't going to last much longer regardless.
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Mar 30, 2021 22:44
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If you have a signed copy of the letter, then I'm pretty sure that the only argument the company could make (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice) that would hold any water was that the letter was signed after the guy had been fired, in which case he wouldn't be acting as a representative of the company any more. So if you do run into issues, find out exactly when the guy got canned before you tell them about the letter.
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