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Gringostar posted:to expand what you said, it's pretty much universally accepted that genocide is a targeted policy of ethic repression and/or extermination, it's just that that repression and extermination can take many different forms pretty sure that qualifies
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Mar 25, 2021 18:12
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Dolphin posted:It's an ad hominem because you're attacking the source of the information rather than addressing the argument itself. The points in his argument do not specifically rely on his credentials as an authority, if he said "I work for the Australian such and such and therefore I can say that yes it's a genocide" then you could call it a conflict of interest. uh again this is not what that means like burden of proof ad hom is for arguments, not data. if Jimmy Liesmith the Liar says 'Socrates is a man. all men all mortal, so Socrates is mortal.' and you shout 'Jimmy is is liar' you have to be contesting the that Socrates is not a man. if you say the logic is invalid because Jimmy is a liar, you're engaging in ad hom if Jimmy says 'i saw sally stealing sheep from freddy', you can say 'shut the gently caress up Jimmy, no one believes you'
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Mar 25, 2021 18:14
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Junkozeyne posted:The point is that he used a completely wrong statistic to arrive at his conclusion without bothering to do his own research. By that methodology why not claim ~25million Uighurs are in camps since as everyone knows China puts Uighurs in camps and there are that many Uighurs in Xinjiang. shocking new report that the CCP is multiplying the uighur population by putting their minds into those black mirror egg torture devices. this appalling and i condemn it
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Mar 25, 2021 18:14
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Trabisnikof posted:sure, but also people are also routinely using less expansive terms. In 1951 there was a campaign to have the UN declare US treatment of Black people as genocide. https://depts.washington.edu/moves/CRC_genocide.shtml
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Mar 25, 2021 18:15
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Dolphin posted:With the corrected info what would the number be? this is loving incredible, not only demanding that the people you're arguing with do your homework for you, but literally literally saying that they also have to use the method of a guy who was just proven to be incompetent at his job at best and a blatant liar and falsifier at worst like, what the gently caress do you even say to this? if you mods are still watching, the discourse goes to poo poo precisely because this kinda garbage is tolerated for some strange reason
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Mar 25, 2021 18:15
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Cerebral Bore posted:this is loving incredible, not only demanding that the people you're arguing with do your homework for you, but literally literally saying that they also have to use the method of a guy who was just proven to be incompetent at his job at best and a blatant liar and falsifier at worst
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Mar 25, 2021 18:17
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Cerebral Bore posted:this is loving incredible, not only demanding that the people you're arguing with do your homework for you, but literally literally saying that they also have to use the method of a guy who was just proven to be incompetent at his job at best and a blatant liar and falsifier at worst this one is a sticky point imo. like i don't think dolphin is doing anything wrong, but fundamentally it seems they're not willing to interrogate their ideas and sources. this will just lead to circular arguments that go on until someone gives up or the rules get broken in some other way. one side gets probed and the other declares victory. then it happens all over again. i dunno how you handle this
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Mar 25, 2021 18:18
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Brain Candy posted:uh again this is not what that means like burden of proof and this is literally the opposite moral from the boy who cried wolf and no it doesn't work like the
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Mar 25, 2021 18:19
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Dolphin posted:didn't they only teach English, ban the Japanese language, not teach japanese history, and force them to do all kinds of patriotic bullshit? i know about the only teach in english which to be fair is a bit of a grey area given all public schools in the us only taught in English at the time but was the banning of all things Japanese (language and culture) ever documented outside of rumors?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:19
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Dolphin posted:no actually the thing you just made up does not have the same value as something based on decades of precedent and thousands of reports post evidence of china's treblinkas please
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Mar 25, 2021 18:19
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Atrocious Joe posted:In 1951 there was a campaign to have the UN declare US treatment of Black people as genocide. and in 1951 they were absolutely loving right
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Mar 25, 2021 18:19
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Dolphin posted:https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghurs-other-ethnic-minorities-forced-into-re-education-programs/ a quick search just reveals lots of stuff sourced to adrian zenz in there
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Mar 25, 2021 18:19
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Dolphin posted:https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghurs-other-ethnic-minorities-forced-into-re-education-programs/ lol this is using that same zenz 8 interview data point. c'mon
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Mar 25, 2021 18:20
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Dolphin posted:https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghurs-other-ethnic-minorities-forced-into-re-education-programs/ Oh my god dude this is the same loving study! They interviewed eight people and extrapolated their testimony to apply to the rest of Xinjiang!!!
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Mar 25, 2021 18:20
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Gringostar posted:i know about the only teach in english which to be fair is a bit of a grey area given all public schools in the us only taught in English at the time but was the banning of all things Japanese (language and culture) ever documented outside of rumors?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:21
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:shocking new report that the CCP is multiplying the uighur population by putting their minds into those black mirror egg torture devices. this appalling and i condemn it Yes sorry ~13 million Uighurs within a population of ~25 million, I should start working for the Australian government
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Mar 25, 2021 18:25
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gradenko_2000 posted:Oh my god dude this is the same loving study! Are we also throwing out this report from the UN human rights panel?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:26
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Dolphin posted:well first, the dude is making a calculation based on data which constitutes an argument, so no. if Jimmy says 'i saw sally stealing sheep from freddy, sally is a thief, thieves are bad, we should imprison sally', you can say 'shut the gently caress up Jimmy, no one believes you' disputing the priors does not mean ad hom
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Mar 25, 2021 18:27
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the way multiple verified sources works is you get one lovely source, publish that single source on a lot of websites, then you have multiple verified sources data laundering in action!
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Mar 25, 2021 18:27
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Dolphin posted:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-idUSKBN1KV1SU that article sources the same site you just posted that cites adrian zenz
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Mar 25, 2021 18:28
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Dolphin posted:word? Yes. There is actually nothing resembling a worldwide consensus on this - it only seems that way to you because like three sources, all with incredibly shoddy or outright specious research (like that famous sampling of eight (8) people to determine that over a million were in custody) have been multiplied across dozens or hundreds news website, twitter threads, TV bulletins, etcetera. I think you're too deeply immersed to ever be convinced, but you do serve as a very useful example of the dangers of lacking a materialist analysis. Since you've consciously and repeatedly ignored any attempt to suss out an economic or even cultural basis for why China would cage or murder millions of its own people, you're just left bouncing around the discourse, seizing onto anything that sounds spectacular while boasting the barest veneer of professionalism, even though each individual source you put forth never, ever stands up to scrutiny. It doesn't matter, because it feels like they're a dozen others, even though behind the curtain they're all copying off each other's homework.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:28
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Dolphin posted:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-idUSKBN1KV1SU lmao quote:The allegations came from multiple sources, including activist group Chinese Human Rights Defenders, which said in a report last month that 21 percent of all arrests recorded in China in 2017 were in Xinjiang.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:28
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Dolphin posted:It's an ad hominem because you're attacking the source of the information rather than addressing the argument itself. The points in his argument do not specifically rely on his credentials as an authority, if he said "I work for the Australian such and such and therefore I can say that yes it's a genocide" then you could call it a conflict of interest. your doing a pretty bad job itt
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Mar 25, 2021 18:29
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also the idea that the united nations human rights council is somehow an unimpeachable source is very funny to me. its the united nations lmao
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Mar 25, 2021 18:29
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Dolphin posted:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-idUSKBN1KV1SU quote:The allegations came from multiple sources, including activist group Chinese Human Rights Defenders, This was the same group you just linked!!!
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Mar 25, 2021 18:29
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A funny story is that this also happened with the Ukrainian famine, like they had their own Adrien Zenz-equivalent. "Thomas Walker", a literal wanted criminal and con man who hadn't been anywhere near the region at the time of the famine, ended up the frequently-cited and re-cited basis for an entire Victims of Communism cottage industry, and of course a bunch of Nazis, but I repeat myself.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:29
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THS posted:i have never seen anyone even attempt to provide evidence for the Grayzone being funded by Russia. i know where at least part of their funding comes from, me, because i donate to their patreon. they are one of a very few media organizations that are fighting against US state dept narratives Max Blumenthal was once in the same which Putin once farted in so theyre clearly huffing that natural gas.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:30
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Brain Candy posted:if Jimmy says 'i saw sally stealing sheep from freddy, sally is a thief, thieves are bad, we should imprison sally', you can say 'shut the gently caress up Jimmy, no one believes you' like you can go "ugh, he lied before but we better check" but you don't go "nah just another lie let's go fishing"
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Mar 25, 2021 18:30
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:At times it feels less like confusion and more like an intentional rhetorical choice, along the same lines as "actually the United States is responsible for the Holocaust because Hitler got all his ideas from Jim Crow." oh gently caress off and go write in kamala again. no one disagrees that human right abuses are occurring in xinjiang or that cultural genocide is occurring on some scale. what people are pushing back against are the bullshit claims that china's opened death camps
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Mar 25, 2021 18:30
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https://twitter.com/whoiszhu/status/1374997477133316096
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Mar 25, 2021 18:32
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Raskolnikov38 posted:oh gently caress off and go write in kamala again. no one disagrees that human right abuses are occurring in xinjiang or that cultural genocide is occurring on some scale. what people are pushing back against are the bullshit claims that china's opened death camps
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Mar 25, 2021 18:32
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Dolphin posted:my dude i haven't even gotten into the academic side of this, this has been an issue for a very long time and i would have immediately gone full skeptic on it if i didn't know multiple people who work in the region you should probably get into your supposed "academic" sources since the non-academic ones are complete poo poo
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Mar 25, 2021 18:34
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Dolphin posted:if jimmy says the grain elevators are on fire and he's lying, you hit him with the beating stick and hope that he doesn't do it again. if he does it again you say "maybe this time it's true" because it would be really bad if the grain all burnt up. im not taking advice on logical fallacies from the guy who got “burden of proof” rear end backwards asking everyone else to prove a negative
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Mar 25, 2021 18:34
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don't know if this was posted already China says reached 'broad consensus' with U.N. after Xinjiang visit quote:The United States and other western countries objected to a visit by the U.N. counterterrorism chief to Xinjiang, where U.N. experts say some one million ethnic Uighurs and other Muslims are held in detention centers. quote:The two sides “had a deep exchange of views on the international counter-terrorism situation and counter-terrorism cooperation between China and the United Nations, and reached a broad consensus”, the ministry said, without giving details. apparently having the UN visit XJ is bad now, who knew?
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Mar 25, 2021 18:35
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Dolphin posted:who said death camps? adrian zenz
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Mar 25, 2021 18:35
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Dolphin posted:if jimmy says the grain elevators are on fire and he's lying, you hit him with the beating stick and hope that he doesn't do it again. if he does it again you say "maybe this time it's true" because it would be really bad if the grain all burnt up. And you think none of us has read anything about this before and are just now discovering the issue? lol, you parroting the same sources we've long dismissed as not credible does not make it necessary to run out and inspect the grain silo again.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:35
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Comrade Koba posted:don't know if this was posted already the loving gall of the united states to accuse anyone else of using "counterterrorism" as a cover for islamophobic military actions lmao
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Mar 25, 2021 18:36
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gradenko_2000 posted:This was the same group you just linked!!!
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Mar 25, 2021 18:36
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THS posted:im not taking advice on logical fallacies from the guy who got “burden of proof” rear end backwards asking everyone else to prove a negative
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Mar 25, 2021 18:37
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We know that the camps exist, and we know that they're "re-education camps" designed to "prevent terrorism" by "eradicating dangerous beliefs". That's straight from the chinese government.
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Mar 25, 2021 18:37
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