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Yinlock posted:the libs on these forums think any anger is just performative to "own your posting enemies" and this has been revealed to be total projection as usual it's really amazing, how many of them are 100% convinced that any opinion that doesn't agree with them MUST be trolling and can't be a real opinion
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Mar 26, 2021 00:27
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commielingus posted:Stfu I didnt say it was bad that the other ideologies had to be eradicated from the world did I?
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Mar 26, 2021 00:27
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Yinlock posted:no, was adding to your "feigning outrage" bit oh ok, sorry that just read strangely to me. Yes, it's absurd. As with Saudi Arabia and Yemen as was posted above
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Mar 26, 2021 00:28
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Junkozeyne posted:China has not officially aknowledged that they want to eradicate Uighur culture, actually quite the opposite. Their official stance is to prevent radicalization towards terrorism, with the camps aiming to combat the material conditions that enable such radicalization. You don't have to believe them and may argue that their actions will lead to the destruction of the culture but claiming they openly admit that as their goal is insane. The official position has been that they have to engage in radical interventions to change the state of the culture, which idk, doesn't seem exactly like they're trying to preserve the culture? F Stop Fitzgerald posted:no they havent. they are trying to stamp out the creeping wahhabist elements coming over the border, which im not going to claim isnt rife with abuses. but picking up some uighur kid because his cousin traveled to syria and making him denounce ETIM, while extremely heavyhanded doesnt even reach "cultural repression" Mentioning that they are engaging in collective punishment does not really help your case here Honestly idk what they should do about the wahhabist stuff, which is very much an extant and internal thing and has been for a while (seriously, uighur's have been turning up in various conflicts for ages now and at one point were a significant fraction of the population in guantanamo)
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Mar 26, 2021 00:28
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WampaLord posted:it's really amazing, how many of them are 100% convinced that any opinion that doesn't agree with them MUST be trolling and can't be a real opinion it's that + lacking any kind of empathy, nobody could ACTUALLY be mad about concentration camps, it must be an elaborate prank
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Mar 26, 2021 00:29
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commielingus posted:Amazing how people think indoctrination = genocide Indoctrination is cultural genocide when it's done by an occupying force against the occupied people's will, in order to alter their culture. I'm taking care to say "cultural genocide" now because that's been a big point of confusion that angries up people's blood. I think you're talking about cultural genocide too, here, because of course nobody thinks getting put in a boarding school is the same as getting taken to an extermination camp.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:30
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Yinlock posted:it's that + lacking any kind of empathy, nobody could ACTUALLY be mad about concentration camps, it must be an elaborate prank it's pretty hosed up!
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Mar 26, 2021 00:30
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commielingus posted:Stfu what are u mad for? daddy xi getting insulted?
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Mar 26, 2021 00:30
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oxsnard posted:I mean those internment camps aren't a great look regardless and raise a whole slew of red flags So is the inverse. Brushing off the camps in china as being nice farms upstate with lots of room to run around in and grass to frolic in, while being horrified and acting like the american concentration camps are full-on nazi style is pretty absurd. Both things can be bad, and what is concerning is how eager a number of people in this very thread seem to be to dismiss any criticism of the Chinese camps as being anything other than schools. Full disclosure: I do not have any relation to any Uighers as far as I am aware, but one of my acquaintances does. Though I haven't spoken to her in around a month, last I heard she'd gone months without hearing from her brother (whom she spoke to daily prior) after he was arrested and put into a camp. That's hosed up. I frankly haven't heard of anyone being released from the camps other than the Chinese government's completely unverifiable claims. Regardless of what is going on, people are being forced to stay there and not allowed to contact the outside world.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:31
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AnimeIsTrash posted:It is wild that Pener left for BNR, he was a good poster imo. drat he did? That sucks, I liked his posting
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Mar 26, 2021 00:32
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Dustcat posted:I'm taking care to say "cultural genocide" now because that's been a big point of confusion that angries up people's blood. I think you're talking about cultural genocide too, here, because of course nobody thinks getting put in a boarding school is the same as getting taken to an extermination camp. Except as mentioned, cultural genocide is genocide. The European settlers did horrible things to the people who lived in America. Some of those things are called cultural genocide, so there's an element of white guilt that says whatever is happening over there is just as bad as the things that were done over here.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:33
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John Charity Spring posted:yeah Bread and Roses banned or drove off anyone who said things like "China is treating the Uyghurs badly but it's not a genocide in the sense of death camps" because the admin line there is basically the Rime approach and it was insufficiently strident and condemnatory. also anyone who said they were a communist not an anarchist got labelled a tankie, it was a bad time all round Cspam truly is the last bastion against succ
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Mar 26, 2021 00:33
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Honestly idk what they should do about the wahhabist stuff, which is very much an extant and internal thing and has been for a while (seriously, uighur's have been turning up in various conflicts for ages now and at one point were a significant fraction of the population in guantanamo) I think this is honestly the root of the whole issue. I also don't have a clue what to do about such a thing, but thankfully I'm just some dweeb on a forum. Assuming we take China at their word of wanting to help this population remove itself from those issues in the first place, how does that actually take place? I absolutely don't like how it sounds its being handled, but are there historical examples of other tactics working? Asking because I'm truly curious, even though I am in general coming down more on China's side than not.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:34
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China believes, perhaps cynically perhaps not, that they are preserving Uyghur culture by ridding Xinjiang of "foreign radical" Islam that threatens the much more... liberal (for lack of a better word) Uyghur Islam. Like most central Asian countries, strict adherence to or even widespread literacy of the Koran is a modern phenomenon. Not saying it's right to monitor the religious beliefs of an ethnic group obviously.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:34
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John Charity Spring posted:the main reason for his ban was Anti White Racism because he got exasperated at lots of white americans being racist about China literal baizous
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Mar 26, 2021 00:35
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Acerbatus posted:So is the inverse. Brushing off the camps in china as being nice farms upstate with lots of room to run around in and grass to frolic in, while being horrified and acting like the american concentration camps are full-on nazi style is pretty absurd. I think you need to distinguish between the rabid china defenders (who are weirdos), of which there are only a few I can remember, and people who get upset about the word being thrown around deliberately to obfuscate such nuances as it can become anti-communist propaganda rapidly These two groups of people are very different and don't lump them all together. imo
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Mar 26, 2021 00:35
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oxsnard posted:oh ok, sorry that just read strangely to me. Yes, it's absurd. i just want to make sure peoples' goto example of frustration with western narratives about genocide should be the current on-going US genocide in yemen
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Mar 26, 2021 00:35
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every offsite ends up worse than however bad you think SA is getting
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Mar 26, 2021 00:35
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Lostconfused posted:Except as mentioned, cultural genocide is genocide. The European settlers did horrible things to the people who lived in America. Some of those things are called cultural genocide, so there's an element of white guilt that says whatever is happening over there is just as bad as the things that were done over here. I wish you and others would stop trying to imply that anybody here is denouncing cultural genocide in china out of "white guilt" or out of a need to deflect from the atrocities committed by the United States in the past or ongoing today. We're not.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:37
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Flavius Aetass posted:I can't say I blame anyone for leaving at the time. There are a lot of posters I wish would come back. Yeah absolutely but lol @ what happened in BNR. The goon that was a taintrunner apologist even after the rape stuff came out also mentioned there was a fight between admins and smarxist got pushed out.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:37
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Herstory Begins Now posted:It might be worthwhile to look up the main definitions used for genocide because you very emphatically do not need a literal holocaust-type extermination system to be a genocide by every major definition. Considering china itself has officially acknowleded that they're trying to stamp out uighur culture and forcibly assimilate them via re-education and occupational training, idk how you dispute that when that's what china is doing according to their own official account of the purposes of the camps... and it clearly meets the accepted definitions of genocide. The reason I brought that up is the two definitions can't be decoupled. The reason we're talking about Xinjiang right now is because this is a thread dedicated to deciding whether posters who disagree with western narratives on Xinjiang are essentially Nazis or not. We would not be discussing it if all China was being accused of was cultural chauvinism. We wouldn't be discussing it if we were just trying to decide if their treatment of Uyghurs was problematic or not. The accusation can't be "just" one of those, it's coupled with the dominant narrative, that China is physically exterminating a minority population. We both know that to concede on one is to concede to the other, and the narrative was designed that way intentionally. The greater population has no desire to apply the same nuance to this issue that we do, they want a verdict - guilty or innocent - and the entire western world is telling them China is guilty. That is why I'm frankly not interested in debating whether what's going on is cultural genocide or not - that's not the conversation the world is having. Xinjiang truthers can't be expected to forward this narrative without answering for the dominant narrative that is, intentionally, the harder one to prove - one that has to account for millions of alleged dead. If all you want to have is a conversation on China's cultural chauvinism (and that would be a valid conversation!), I don't think this is the place for it, and it would be disingenuous to insist it is
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Mar 26, 2021 00:37
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comedyblissoption posted:i dont want you to misunderstand that i was accusing you of anything yes 100% agreed, Yemen is State sponsored genocide. I was trying to say that. IIbrought up the Native American experience because we should have the benefit of less emotions as it's considered a historical event (though it's consequences still hold today)
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Mar 26, 2021 00:38
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Lostconfused posted:Except as mentioned, cultural genocide is genocide. The European settlers did horrible things to the people who lived in America. Some of those things are called cultural genocide, so there's an element of white guilt that says whatever is happening over there is just as bad as the things that were done over here. my understanding is that line of division is that genocide involves killing or creating conditions that hasten death
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Mar 26, 2021 00:39
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Dustcat posted:I wish you and others would stop trying to imply that anybody here is denouncing cultural genocide in china out of "white guilt" or out of a need to deflect from the atrocities committed by the United States in the past or ongoing today. We're not. I am not implying it and I am not deflecting. Raskolnikov38 posted:my understanding is that line of division is that genocide involves killing or creating conditions that hasten death
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Mar 26, 2021 00:40
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What's going on in Yemen is disgusting and no one loving cares it's sick
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Mar 26, 2021 00:41
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Flavius Aetass posted:China believes, perhaps cynically perhaps not, that they are preserving Uyghur culture by ridding Xinjiang of "foreign radical" Islam that threatens the much more... liberal (for lack of a better word) Uyghur Islam. Given the general concentration of islamic extremists (which typically represent ~.5% or less of the total population of the roughly 1.5 billion muslims) I am deeply skeptical that there are enough of them to be anywhere even remotely proportional to the scale of the effort mounted against them. Even in Saudi Arabia, wahabbi islam is a minority branch of Islam.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:42
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we collectively literally stopped caring about concentration camps in our own country the second we got a new president it's hardly surprising
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Mar 26, 2021 00:42
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Deified Data posted:The reason I brought that up is the two definitions can't be decoupled. The reason we're talking about Xinjiang right now is because this is a thread dedicated to deciding whether posters who disagree with western narratives on Xinjiang are essentially Nazis or not. We would not be discussing it if all China was being accused of was cultural chauvinism. We wouldn't be discussing it if we were just trying to decide if their treatment of Uyghurs was problematic or not. The accusation can't be "just" one of those, it's coupled with the dominant narrative, that China is physically exterminating a minority population. We both know that to concede on one is to concede to the other, and the narrative was designed that way intentionally. The greater population has no desire to apply the same nuance to this issue that we do, they want a verdict - guilty or innocent - and the entire western world is telling them China is guilty. thanks for being a lot more articulate for what my main point is too
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Mar 26, 2021 00:42
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i do think china is missing a massive opportunity to point out our black prison population
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Mar 26, 2021 00:43
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Mentioning that they are engaging in collective punishment does not really help your case here collective punishment isnt whats happening, its more like they are using even the most tenuous ties to potential terrorists to try to stop more people getting radicalized. obviously this is going to lead to numbers of innocent people getting swept up, having their lifes ruined, who knows what else. Baykin posted:I think this is honestly the root of the whole issue. I also don't have a clue what to do about such a thing, but thankfully I'm just some dweeb on a forum. Assuming we take China at their word of wanting to help this population remove itself from those issues in the first place, how does that actually take place? I absolutely don't like how it sounds its being handled, but are there historical examples of other tactics working? Asking because I'm truly curious, even though I am in general coming down more on China's side than not. yeah its a lovely damned-if-you-do situation all around
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Mar 26, 2021 00:43
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Given the general concentration of islamic extremists (which typically represent ~.5% or less of the total population of the roughly 1.5 billion muslims) I am deeply skeptical that there are enough of them to be anywhere even remotely proportional to the scale of the effort mounted against them. correct but that still hasn’t stopped us from setting trillions of dollars on fire to trying to stop them while also giving the saudis more money to spread it
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Mar 26, 2021 00:43
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Flavius Aetass posted:China believes, perhaps cynically perhaps not, that they are preserving Uyghur culture by ridding Xinjiang of "foreign radical" Islam that threatens the much more... liberal (for lack of a better word) Uyghur Islam. It is insane how radically different these countries are today to just a few centuries ago and the reason they shifted so hard was a reaction to our colonialism. If the US has constantly underestimated something about china, its their ability stomp reaction out.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:43
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Cao Ni Ma posted:It is insane how radically different these countries are today to just a few centuries ago and the reason they shifted so hard was a reaction to our colonialism. If the US has constantly underestimated something about china, its their ability stomp reaction out. do you have any reading suggestions on this topic? Religious conservative fanaticism and violence has done just fine under the biggest imperial power that has ever existed
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Mar 26, 2021 00:46
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Lostconfused posted:I am not implying it and I am not deflecting. How else would one read this though: quote:there's an element of white guilt that says whatever is happening over there is just as bad as the things that were done over here. I think your "I am not deflecting" must be a language barrier issue because obviously I wasn't accusing you of deflecting from the atrocities committed by the United States.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:46
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THS posted:thanks for being a lot more articulate for what my main point is too lol thanks, this topic kinda makes me feel like a raving madman but I just have to remember that's 100% intentional
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Mar 26, 2021 00:46
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Herstory Begins Now posted:It might be worthwhile to look up the main definitions used for genocide because you very emphatically do not need a literal holocaust-type extermination system to be a genocide by every major definition. Considering china itself has officially acknowleded that they're trying to stamp out uighur culture and forcibly assimilate them via re-education and occupational training, idk how you dispute that when that's what china is doing according to their own official account of the purposes of the camps... and it clearly meets the accepted definitions of genocide. It's not about whether "cultural genocide" is or isn't a thing The issue is that China is being accused of the literal, Holocaust type of genocide regardless
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Mar 26, 2021 00:47
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:collective punishment isnt whats happening, its more like they are using even the most tenuous ties to potential terrorists to try to stop more people getting radicalized. obviously this is going to lead to numbers of innocent people getting swept up, having their lifes ruined, who knows what else. bunches of innocent people getting swept up merely for having some kind of suspected association to someone assumed to be guilty is definitionally collective punishment though
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Mar 26, 2021 00:49
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Deified Data posted:lol thanks, this topic kinda makes me feel like a raving madman but I just have to remember that's 100% intentional it’s difficult but we are not just trying to establish the facts, but also the intentional media narrative constructed around it, and what impression this is leaving on a lot of people who come into contact with it it’s very difficult for this not to get murky and frustrating when trying to explain it
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Mar 26, 2021 00:51
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It still seems to me like the defenses boil down to "Well the US is doing/has done worse", "it's not actual genocide, just cultural genocide", and "You're only paying attention to this because the state department wants you to". But none of those things seem to serve to actually diminish the fact that was is happening is an atrocity.
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Mar 26, 2021 00:51
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Hey guys as a former resident of the XUAR and one with close family ties to the region, I just want to point out that there are no restrictions on travel or tourism to any area in Xinjiang. All the arguments here about whether this or that mosque was demolished or whether this or that building is this or that seem very dumb to me because someone could just...walk over there and check it out? It's like people in China who have never read a thing about America having some drawn out debate over the American genocide in Baltimore, MD based on images from Google Earth, because Baltimore, MD is a black hole of information? Also please visit Xinjiang, the economy especially in Uyghur areas is heavily dependent on tourism and there's a lot of food and culture to be enjoyed. Just off the top of my head, There are several museums in Turpan that have great exhibits documenting an ancient system of underground irrigation used by the Uyghurs that used to be common in central Asia but were deliberately destroyed by Genghis Khan in his crushing of the Kwarizm empire that it basically never recovered in most areas. For Europeans, Emirates and Qatar have daily flights to Urumuqi and Yinchuan from their hubs in Dubai and Doha. Finding an English link to it is a bit hard but this description seems broadly in line with what I saw. https://www.farwestchina.com/travel/turpan/uyghur-karez-wells/
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Mar 26, 2021 00:52
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