|
Dolphin posted:these are getting ridiculous but I’m having fun and that’s the most important part also the cuba embargo cutting off our supplies of excellent rum and cigars
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 05:41 |
|
|
Dolphin posted:can you think of another time a superpower sabotaged its own supply chain over anxiety? The waxing power of monopoly and finance capitalism results in imperialism, and the uneven development of different regions of the world combined with the division and redivision of imperial spoils results in war. Kautsky theorized a "super-imperialism" in which all capitalist states merged into one gigantic extractive power that smoothly cooperated to exploit everything and everyone, but that just doesn't happen. Instead, you get the last hundred years of history.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:18
|
|
|
the embargo acts that contributed to the war of 1812
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:19
|
|
|
Dolphin posted:they were trying to protect their slave economy there has only been a superpower by your definition for what, 60 years? no one is going to come up with a historical example of “the united states, as it’s currently constituted, under these conditions”. there are plenty of examples of non superpowers going to war and loving their own trade badly, nothing about superpower status makes the US immune to that, and i dont know if you noticed but this is a particularly warlike and stupid place that recently elected a gameshow host then followed it up with a demented sex creep. we are not immune from irrational escalations to war, and if anything the US believing itself to be exceptionally rational and not prone to make such mistakes, likely makes it more hubristic and liable to brinksmanship all the way to catastrophe
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:19
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:but I’m having fun and that’s the most important part
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:19
|
|
|
i guess history has ended then
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:21
|
|
|
Admiral Ray posted:Wait, is China actually letting Americans travel there right now? Travel to where, China generally or XUAR in particular? For China generally, I'm not sure but they probably should just keep American plague rats out on principle. I don't know what COVID specific restrictions are in place right now, but I'm not aware of any specific restrictions on Americans or any other nationality with respect to traveling to and within the XUAR, in contrast to Tibet, where there has always been a requirement that you registered and travel with a tour group. Millions of Chinese obviously travel in and out of the XUAR every day. The opposite is sometimes true, e.g. hotels in the rest of China have to go through some additional rigamarole for customers with a XUAR ID, similar to that for foreign customers, and many find it easier to just outright refuse all XUAR customers. This is extremely unpopular as it is obviously equally applied to all XUAR residents regardless of ethnicity but disproportionately affects Han residents who generally have more reasons to travel to other parts of China. Also I think there's some kind extra paperwork for XUAR residents who want to enter Tibet for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:22
|
|
|
F Stop Fitzgerald posted:i guess history has ended then
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:23
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:After having taken some time to think about it, I am increasingly convinced that the reason China Daily refuted an imagined claim about raw number of IUDs added, rather than the actual claim about net number of IUDs added, is that "net IUDs added" is an insane statistic which communicates nothing. The people getting IUDs are different from the people removing IUDs! There might be a lot of young people entering the workforce who want to put off childbirth while, at the same time, the fact that IUDs weren't in widespread use prior (due to poverty, medical access, culture, whatever) means that there's no matching cohort of aging people who either feel ready to have children or who simply no longer have the need to bother. Yeah I have to back off a bit on saying they were being deliberate in that. I don't tend to give media sources, especially state backed ones (eg, NYT to a large degree, Chinadaily), much slack on things like this since it's their entire job, but it is a bizarre metric that I can't say they were being purposeful in lying about after thinking about it for a while. I checked the numbers on the other provinces and since there's net negative removals in some provinces the "80%" is a lot more menacing than it seems. Xinjiang is still over-represented in the IUD stats, but it's not to the degree stated by Zenz. Rather, it is to the degree we might expect from a crackdown on a group that was previously allowed to flout the child policy in China. It's still horrific, and leads to cultural repression and erasure, but honestly going through Zenz's bullshit so closely makes me want to do the same to the other sources for this, because right now the nonsense he put out there makes me doubt the strength of my previous conclusion.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:23
|
|
|
loving around and finding out presents: the yom kippur war and the OPEC oil embargo
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:25
|
|
|
Throatwarbler posted:Travel to where, China generally or XUAR in particular? For China generally, I'm not sure but they probably should just keep American plague rats out on principle. I don't know what COVID specific restrictions are in place right now, but I'm not aware of any specific restrictions on Americans or any other nationality with respect to traveling to and within the XUAR, in contrast to Tibet, where there has always been a requirement that you registered and travel with a tour group. Millions of Chinese obviously travel in and out of the XUAR every day. China in general. I was gonna say that if the CCP was letting in plague carriers from the plagued states of america they really couldn't deny they were trying to kill their own people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:25
|
|
|
Specifically what I think this thread is about is that posts like this:1337JiveTurkey posted:I for one am completely opposed to the tyrannical use of sixers to violently oppress people who just want to talk about the oft-overlooked positive aspects of People's Liberation Army soldiers gang raping Uighur women. lead to user's being incredibly frustrated and responding with posts like this: commielingus posted:Stfu keeps happening repeatedly and the ban reason flat out implies that there is in fact genocide commencing. I'm aware this isn't in CSPAM or how the exact order of posts played out but it's an example of the types of punishment that's been repeatedly handed out in CSPAM lately and this thread thankfully looks likes its going to curb it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:27
|
|
|
what the gently caress free commielingus
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:29
|
|
|
Admiral Ray posted:Yeah I have to back off a bit on saying they were being deliberate in that. I don't tend to give media sources, especially state backed ones (eg, NYT to a large degree, Chinadaily), much slack on things like this since it's their entire job, but it is a bizarre metric that I can't say they were being purposeful in lying about after thinking about it for a while. I checked the numbers on the other provinces and since there's net negative removals in some provinces the "80%" is a lot more menacing than it seems. Xinjiang is still over-represented in the IUD stats, but it's not to the degree stated by Zenz. Rather, it is to the degree we might expect from a crackdown on a group that was previously allowed to flout the child policy in China. It's still horrific, and leads to cultural repression and erasure, but honestly going through Zenz's bullshit so closely makes me want to do the same to the other sources for this, because right now the nonsense he put out there makes me doubt the strength of my previous conclusion. I'm actually glad you brought it up, because I feel like I've seen at least a couple other pro-China sources that have uncritically reposted the 80%->8.7% correction; it looks just enough like a stupid mistake (haw haw, he moved the decimal point! whatta maroon!) than the bizarre octopus ink it actually is that whoever wrote that China Daily article took the easy way out, and people inclined to believe China Daily just reposted it without question. I certainly was! It's good to actually spot this stuff, in part because it underscores how the Inception style use and reuse of what's honestly a small number of sources doesn't represent some kind of conspiracy on the anyone's part, on either side - just confirmation bias and a tendency not to look a gift horse in the mouth. This is also why the prime movers of either side of the debate are so important to dig into and verify, since they'll pop up everywhere. The fact that a place with ~1.3% of the population sees ~8.7% of the use of a particular kind of birth control is significant, Zenz's legerdemain aside. As you say, it squares with the results of an ethnic group no longer getting to ignore nationwide birth control standards and therefore being subject to pressure to get their stats in gear. However, it also squares with just... increased availability of birth control plus reduced poverty, and as the article I linked points out the Uyghur population is still growing and indeed growing faster than the Han population. Pressure to conform can manifest as both threats and incentives, and most governments use a mix of both.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:37
|
|
|
so again, saying "there is no genocide occurring because you don't have receipts" irks people, while "i don't know what's happening, i haven't seen receipts" doesn't. it's the same reason we don't deny victimhood in other situations as well. because it's a lovely gamble that has a bad precedent
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:37
|
|
|
ignoring some of the sillier smaller entities, this is the strategic objective of the US: the united states will not accept secondary status to china. the united states has the strategic interest of maintaining imperial hegemony, not just across most of the globe, but even in east asia. the possible loss is no longer being the global reserve currency, and no longer calling the shots and treating the world like its backyard. this possibility cannot be abided by US establishment thinkers who genuinely do believe in american exceptionalism and will do whatever they can to destabalize china, because left to develop on its own terms, a nation of 1.3 billion people led by a strong centralized stable bureaucracy will likely not just overtake the US in economic and technological power, but eventually military power. add on that it’s not a “liberal democracy” but what establishment american exceptionalists deem as an evil authoritarian state it is really short term thinking to believe that US elites do not have a strategic interest in confronting china and a new cold war losing superpower status is the anxiety which will drive conflict. maintaining superpower status even though that’s impossible with 350 million americans vs. 1.3 chinese is the strategic interest
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:37
|
|
|
Admiral Ray posted:China in general. I was gonna say that if the CCP was letting in plague carriers from the plagued states of america they really couldn't deny they were trying to kill their own people. Dubai (the UAE) was one of the first places to widely administer the Sinopharm vaccine, which is no coincidence given there are direct flights from Dubai to Urumuqi and Yinchuan. It's generally inconvenient for Americans to travel to this part of the world generally because of distance, but not everyone in this thread is American. I also don't think the policy is "get Chinese Vaccine, go straight through" anyway, pretty sure it's just that your paperwork might be processed faster.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:39
|
|
|
THS posted:ignoring some of the sillier smaller entities, this is the strategic objective of the US: I don't necessarily disagree with any of this but I continue to fail to see the relevance to the direct question/discussion of the treatment of the Uyghurs
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:40
|
|
|
Dolphin posted:more like it doesn't make any sense, it doesn't serve us strategic interests. Under capitalism, everyone more or less acts rationally based on their personal incentives and resources, but this all adds up to an insane apocalyptic death cult. Just because the outcome of all the world's nations pursuing their individual interests will probably lead to global ruin doesn't mean they won't do it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:41
|
|
|
Good Soldier Svejk posted:I don't necessarily disagree with any of this but I continue to fail to see the relevance to the direct question/discussion of the treatment of the Uyghurs because im discussing the discussion about the uyghurs and how that impacts public perceptions and the likelyhood of an american public getting primed for a cold war. i think it’s relevant. im also arguing against dolphin who says this isnt in the US strategic interest when it clearly is
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:43
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:Under capitalism, everyone more or less acts rationally based on their personal incentives and resources, but this all adds up to an insane apocalyptic death cult. Just because the outcome of all the world's nations pursuing their individual interests will probably lead to global ruin doesn't mean they won't do it. barbarism and the mutual ruin of all, as the saying goes
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:47
|
|
|
F Stop Fitzgerald posted:what the gently caress free commielingus
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:48
|
|
|
THS posted:barbarism and the mutual ruin of all, as the saying goes Barbarism equals oligarch power plus the Jokerfication of the countryside.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:51
|
|
|
Dolphin posted:so again, saying "there is no genocide occurring because you don't have receipts" irks people, while "i don't know what's happening, i haven't seen receipts" doesn't. it's the same reason we don't deny victimhood in other situations as well. because it's a lovely gamble that has a bad precedent And also yet again, the reason that this is not the same type of situation is that we have absolutely tons of proof that that the US will absolutely make poo poo up to justify horrendous murderous campaigns which would guarantee far worse suffering worldwide, which allowing claims of genocide to fester inherently pushes. Whereas the proof that we have against China is that they are using an overly heavy hand treating the fringes of a minority, which as we've been over repeatedly, really sucks rear end in how its going down. But that nuanced view is not even remotely in the same neighborhood as the general discussions that take place about China. The post about raping Uigher women is far closer to the actual discourse in the general public. The reason that this is an important thing make sure is handled carefully is that even though this is a dumb comedy forum, we are still representative of the general public. If we can't even fix the discourse here, what hope is there of it happening in the broader public.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 02:51
|
|
|
another thing is that there is actually a lot of internal uyghur support for the anti-radicalization efforts. not absolute of course and there is definitely resentment brewing but you gotta remember that "radical islamic terrorism" wasnt some dogwhistle or abstraction in xinjiang like we think of it in the US, this was at their doorstep, they actually were being regularly attacked, terrorized, and these programs have produced favorable results. i mean take whatever you want away from that but just something to keep in mind if you start getting white savior brain
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:06
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:Barbarism equals oligarch power plus the Jokerfication of the countryside.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:08
|
|
|
F Stop Fitzgerald posted:another thing is that there is actually a lot of internal uyghur support for the anti-radicalization efforts. not absolute of course and there is definitely resentment brewing but you gotta remember that "radical islamic terrorism" wasnt some dogwhistle or abstraction in xinjiang like we think of it in the US, this was at their doorstep, they actually were being regularly attacked, terrorized, and these programs have produced favorable results. Syria was Gladio 3.0
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:10
|
|
|
Baykin posted:And also yet again, the reason that this is not the same type of situation is that we have absolutely tons of proof that that the US will absolutely make poo poo up to justify horrendous murderous campaigns which would guarantee far worse suffering worldwide, which allowing claims of genocide to fester inherently pushes. Whereas the proof that we have against China is that they are using an overly heavy hand treating the fringes of a minority, which as we've been over repeatedly, really sucks rear end in how its going down. But that nuanced view is not even remotely in the same neighborhood as the general discussions that take place about China. The post about raping Uigher women is far closer to the actual discourse in the general public. also again, we don't know what's happening. we have rumors. we do have a long history of horrible treatment of this community, and we have atrocities committed by the ccp, sure the us could leverage that to fabricate rumors but we don't know.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:19
|
|
|
F Stop Fitzgerald posted:if you start getting white savior brain Did someone on SA advocate going to war to fix this?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:20
|
|
|
Flying-PCP posted:Did someone on SA advocate going to war to fix this? Probably someone at some time? I dunno lotta weird guys here.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:22
|
|
|
Dolphin posted:no one here is arguing that the us doesn't do those things. Right, just that they're not doing it this time, believe us
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:25
|
|
|
F Stop Fitzgerald posted:another thing is that there is actually a lot of internal uyghur support for the anti-radicalization efforts. not absolute of course and there is definitely resentment brewing but you gotta remember that "radical islamic terrorism" wasnt some dogwhistle or abstraction in xinjiang like we think of it in the US, this was at their doorstep, they actually were being regularly attacked, terrorized, and these programs have produced favorable results.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:25
|
|
|
Deified Data posted:Right, just that they're not doing it this time, believe us
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:25
|
|
|
Dolphin posted:favorable results for whom? the people not dying in knife attacks, presumably
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:25
|
|
|
really its funny that the cpc gets brought up as much as it does considering china's vast governing system of administrative divisions but i guess it doesnt get the nationalism juices going to cover abuses and corruption in a urumqi subdistrict or w/e
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:28
|
|
|
I'm having trouble finding it, does anyone know what china considers "extremism?"
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:30
|
|
|
Dolphin posted:are we talking about the us or the ccp now? The one trying to prove the accusation
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:30
|
|
|
Dolphin posted:so again, saying "there is no genocide occurring because you don't have receipts" irks people, while "i don't know what's happening, i haven't seen receipts" doesn't. it's the same reason we don't deny victimhood in other situations as well. because it's a lovely gamble that has a bad precedent The missing thing, which is a quintessentially liberal thing to miss and that's why you're getting so much reflexive pushback, is context, place, and intensity of enforcement, IMO. If the matter was treated to the extent which like matters are elsewhere, we could have some fairly strong critique of China from the Cool Zone thread (for being cops with all that implies) and from the Communist theory thread for loving up national self-determination, with people occasionally copping sixers for defending the indefensible-but-not-unusual or getting too heated on either side. Instead, we've got the feedback thread we're in simultaneously being held up in QCS as incorrigible tankies while also reaching a consensus against broadly normalized-worldwide concepts like mandatory civics education, a reeducation component to jail or prison and a significant jail component to integration of poor areas, government encouragement of less radical sects (the NYPD has sermon-monitoring branches far and wide, nationally and internationally, entirely outside of its legal remit, because they're considered exceptionally good at it!), and availability of contraception and tax policy around children as Communist schemes. All against the backdrop of also being an argument about questionable ad-hoc promotions of mods and IKs, where the current mod team was put in place to change the forum's direction after an admin was run off the site in a wave of moral revulsion that he argued against cooked figures from the same patently-absurd foundation currently in almost sole command of cooking up the cultural hegemony's claims about Xinjiang. Some of those normalized concepts are poo poo with obvious better options that are ignored worldwide. Some of them are poo poo that no one has figured out how to avoid outside of an idealized vacuum. Some require more deft handling than the government of China has yet shown. Some are only troubling as part of a greater pattern and rely on portrayal of the prior three as unique evils to establish that pattern. Some are veiled allusions to the real argument and should be treated as such, and within that some are left vs liberal faultlines and some are abject right wing loon vs. anything else faultlines. The application of the term "genocide" to any and all of them, from the first to the last, is within the context of discussing moderation or foreign policy plainly a disingenuous attempt to call "fire" at not just the smoking section of a theatre, but also only one individual within it, in order to carry through grudges under guise of a clarion call, while simultaneously laughing off the same behavior in one's own backyard as "it can't be genocide--do you see any gas chambers?" e: Dolphin posted:no one here is arguing that the us doesn't do those things. Go on, put your money where your mouth is. We've agreed in this thread that the system of farming out subaltern youth to boarding education in another language from another sect within the same religion is cultural genocide, and that there is no place for genocide denial or apologetics on SA. Go out, press the report button liberally (  ), and get a ban+30 scalp for denial or defense of the current US policy of assigning hispanophone Catholics to the care of anglophone Baptists.It won't happen and I won't be surprised if I get dinged for whataboutism, bringing up feuds, or encouraging forums invasions just for contemplating it--but that's the point I'm making, the academic question "things China is doing: good or bad?" is entirely subsumed in a wider kulturkampf that only tangentially connects to China's actions at all. Mandoric has issued a correction as of 03:54 on Mar 26, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:32
|
|
|
Deified Data posted:The one trying to prove the accusation some people don’t see the US media as an extension for american interests, for the US state. of course it is, doubly so for reporting on overseas issues. but it’s separate to them, as if one can discuss these narratives in a vacuum without critically engaging with where they are coming from or why
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 05:41 |
|
|
Deified Data posted:The one trying to prove the accusation
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 03:35
|
|