|
Mandoric posted:I don't think it has any relation to how Chinese (which is honestly not a very useful collective term, even LESS useful the more we accept that Xinjiang is oppressed!) dissent in China. But your claim is that Chinese dissidents in China are uniquely cowed due to government interference in the practice of their religion, and I'm counterarguing that an American practitioner of that religion was famously extrajudicially executed in the somewhat recent past in order to promote a more moderate strain and thus the cowing is not unique. For the same reason that American Jews don't view synagogue arsons the same as Kristallnacht, not one single American Muslim is 'cowed' by the assassination of Anwar al-Awlaki to the same extent that they would be if a concentration camp for millions of Muslims was built a few miles down the road. The equivalence is ridiculous
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 06:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 18:46 |
|
|
Some Guy TT posted:the datas skewed less by other rural provinces as it is by the fact that negative rates for urban provinces are loving up the overall math in such a way that you cant even interpret the 80% as being relative to a hundred could you do me a favour and either directly label the columns you're talking about or be more clear? I can't read any variety of Chinese and I'm becoming v confused by your 'according to second column of additions and the fourth one of removals'
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 06:53
|
|
|
BrainDance posted:I say 'In China' because I can't even start to speak about anywhere besides China, because China is where I see this. Maybe 'In Germany' or 'in Burkina Faso' too but, I'm not in either of those. Do you believe other people, or Chinese people in other contexts, do not self-censor? If you believe all people self-censor depending on their audience, then you reject eyewitness testimony in all cases, and thus automatically reject the eyewitness testimony of atrocities in Xinjiang since they're collected by someone who obviously wants to hear of them. If you believe that the Chinese uniquely self-censor, then you're making a frankly Orientalist comparison and refusing to even consider contrary evidence. Neither way is an earnest attempt to engage. Eugene V. Dubstep posted:For the same reason that American Jews don't view synagogue arsons the same as Kristallnacht, not one single American Muslim is 'cowed' by the assassination of Anwar al-Awlaki to the same extent that they would be if a concentration camp for millions of Muslims was built a few miles down the road. The equivalence is ridiculous Alternately, you're believing in the concentration camp for millions entirely and solely because its existence is necessary to make it plausible that Uyghur Muslims are exceptionally cowed. e: Millions is also, I'll remind you, 2 million minimum, or 20% of the Uyghur population of Xinjiang. 20%-25% was the total bloodshed inflicted by the Fascist scum on the areas of eastern Europe where they did their worst. We can see the graves, the scars, the empty seats and dead villages quite well even now, how on earth do you think they're hiding that in a tourism-and-agriculture region anyone from a country that isn't a plague pit can just rent a car and drive out to? It's a loving disgusting and inhuman comparison that borders on genocide denial in its own way. Mandoric has issued a correction as of 07:17 on Mar 26, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:00
|
|
|
Mandoric posted:Do you believe other people, or Chinese people in other contexts, do not self-censor? Sure Mandoric posted:If you believe all people self-censor depending on their audience, then you reject eyewitness testimony in all cases, and thus automatically reject the eyewitness testimony of atrocities in Xinjiang since they're collected by someone who obviously wants to hear of them. No, Like that's literally nonsense, I get what you think you are doing but it's not a conclusion that makes any sense, in this context or even logically. The context of self censorship in China is established by the wording of specific Chinese laws and the way those laws have been interpreted and enforced. If it weren't for those laws, or the ways they're enforced, it would not be, but here we are. Outside of the context of these laws, it just wouldn't apply, if there is no enforcement because a law doesn't exist there is nothing to self censor. I guess it would be unique to China in some way, because Chinese law doesn't apply outside of China. Mandoric posted:If you believe that the Chinese uniquely self-censor, then you're making a frankly Orientalist comparison and refusing to even consider contrary evidence. Lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:11
|
|
|
AnimeIsTrash posted:It is wild that Pener left for BNR, he was a good poster imo. he was the most prolific of posters. quality and quantity. a true master.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:14
|
|
|
Mandoric posted:Alternately, you're believing in the concentration camp for millions entirely and solely because its existence is necessary to make it plausible that Uyghur Muslims are exceptionally cowed. Let's leave aside the concentration camps, of which there are satellite photos and numerous eyewitnesses. I guess I can also overlook Tiananmen Square and the Cultural Revolution since they're ancient history. Nobody would self-censor based on them, I bet nobody even remembers them! But surely it gives you pause that, in a country with 1.4 billion people split among 56 recognised ethnic groups who speak almost 300 different languages, there exists no political party in opposition to the CCP. It might make you wonder, golly, maybe there's some self-censorship going on here. Heck, maybe even actual external censorship! Eugene V. Dubstep has issued a correction as of 07:23 on Mar 26, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:19
|
|
|
Mandoric posted:how on earth do you think they're hiding that in a tourism-and-agriculture region anyone from a country that isn't a plague pit can just rent a car and drive out to?  e: 
Eugene V. Dubstep has issued a correction as of 07:34 on Mar 26, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:27
|
|
|
Technically there are other parties, they are just very narrowly focused and weirdly subservient to the party. Which is really weird when you think about it, wonder what that's all about.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:29
|
|
|
It also bears noting that the allegations surrounding Xinjiang are part of a larger milieu of capital-B Bad Things that China has been accused of doing over the years: * oppression in Tibet * repression of the so-called Hong Kong independence movement (who turned out to be Trump-supporting hooting reactionaries) * a pending invasion of Taiwan (any day now) * infiltration of South / Latin America * cyber-attacks on the United States * specifically Huawei being a used as a platform for spying (leading up to a ban on their products, which is really just another way to suppress a potential competitor to Qualcomm and the likes) * "debt-trap" diplomacy, especially with regards to Africa * "vaccine diplomacy" and then COVID, which I do want to highlight, because there's a parallel to Xinjiang discourse in that even if you talk someone down from the position of "COVID-19 was a genetically-engineered bioweapon" as overblown kookery, the same way we might say "well, they're not LITERALLY death camps", people are still prone to land on the marginally softer position of "okay, so China didn't CREATE the virus, but they did hide news of it when it first came out, and therefore they bear responsibility for its spread, which could have been contained more if only The World Knew Sooner" Or, more recently, the allegation (as I'd posted earlier in that Politico piece) that China still isn't saying The Whole Story about what went on in Wuhan, which shifts the discourse from "we know they're doing something bad", to at least "it's unknowable at the moment", which still leaves the door open for something more nefarious without having to commit to a specific narrative.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:30
|
|
|
Mandoric posted:We can see the graves, the scars, the empty seats and dead villages quite well even now, how on earth do you think they're hiding that in a tourism-and-agriculture region anyone from a country that isn't a plague pit can just rent a car and drive out to? It's a loving disgusting and inhuman comparison that borders on genocide denial in its own way. You actually cant, it's not as restrictive as Tibet but no you can't just rent a car and freely drive around Xinjiang without at least being heavily monitored and then restricted if you get somewhere they don't exactly feel like you should be at. When you get in the more rural parts of Xinjiang, the villages become a lot more restrictive to outsiders.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:32
|
|
|
Eugene V. Dubstep posted:Let's leave aside the concentration camps, of which there are satellite photos and numerous eyewitnesses. Numerous! Is that number, by any chance, 8? Seriously, though, I think Tiananmen Square (or to be exact, the 6.4 incident--the surrounding slums of Maoist factory workers got it far worse there than the stylish Eurocommunist college kids with a Reuters escort) was loving terrible. I also think that it was a direct factional clash with said Maoists, who had been on top for their own mediocre idea of the Cultural Revolution and their own bad idea of the Great Leap Forward to spot you one. And wew, good fuckin' luck finding an East Asian part of the "free world" that hasn't also done most its big policy debates as between factions in the ruling party while the opposition/coalition parties (of which China has several ineffective ones--it's a good example of how China is not particularly better either!) sat off to the side. My inclination is to mostly write it off as a mismatch between the terms for "party" and "bloc", but if you want to advocate some skull-measuring, there but for the grace of God. e: eternal lololol that your measurement is Moscow to Auschwitz and not Berlin to Auschwitz, way to give away the game Anyway, though, I think we've each laid out more than enough of why we feel as we do, and instead of us fighting over the quality of decades of reporting the thread should be allowed to go back to its main focus on "how plausible are the bad parts of Xinjiang and how bad are the plausible parts of Xinjiang", of which specifically the second doesn't appear to brook much debate at all: it's bad, officials who claim to be better not being better. Mandoric has issued a correction as of 08:01 on Mar 26, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:38
|
|
|
The famous Soviet death camps of Auschwitz, which the Soviets also deviously liberated, perhaps as some elaborate form of Asiatic trickery.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:48
|
|
|
Mandoric posted:e: eternal lololol that your measurement is Moscow to Auschwitz and not Berlin to Auschwitz, way to give away the game Prince Myshkin posted:The famous Soviet death camps of Auschwitz, which the Soviets also deviously liberated, perhaps as some elaborate form of Asiatic trickery.  I chose it to emphasise the distances involved and for the east-to-west route, not to draw a 1:1 historical parallel, you loving mouthbreathers
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:48
|
|
|
Prince Myshkin posted:The famous Soviet death camps of Auschwitz, which the Soviets also deviously liberated, perhaps as some elaborate form of Asiatic trickery.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:50
|
|
|
Prince Myshkin posted:The famous Soviet death camps of Auschwitz, which the Soviets also deviously liberated, perhaps as some elaborate form of Asiatic trickery.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:50
|
|
|
Prince Myshkin posted:The famous Soviet death camps of Auschwitz, which the Soviets also deviously liberated, perhaps as some elaborate form of Asiatic trickery.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:50
|
|
|
Eugene V. Dubstep posted:
Did Auschwitz have an airport with regular transnational flight routes leading there?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:51
|
|
|
Prince Myshkin posted:Did Auschwitz have an airport with regular transnational flight routes leading there? I'm not the one who claimed you could just rent a car from a normal tourist destination and drive there
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:52
|
|
|
Eugene V. Dubstep posted:I'm not the one who claimed you could just rent a car from a normal tourist destination and drive there So your quibble is with the mode of transportation, not the factual accuracy of the claim. I just checked a travel website and there are round trip flights from Shanghai in April for $300.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:54
|
|
|
Prince Myshkin posted:So your quibble is with the mode of transportation, not the factual accuracy of the claim. I just checked a travel website and there are round trip flights from Shanghai in April for $300. Yeah but that would be to Urumqi. Xinjiang is actually a lot bigger than Poland. Like more than a few times bigger. This is all kinda goofy though lol I guess, to make more of a point instead of whatever about maps. The original point was how could they hide stuff there if you can just drive there. And the answer Id say is, super loving easily? Because Xinjiang is absolutely massive and very empty, and you can't actually just drive around checking stuff out freely and completely undisturbed when you get outside the very populated areas. Like that's not saying anything about whether there is or isn't anything there. But are people really going to say in Xinjiang of all places it would be hard to hide... Anything? BrainDance has issued a correction as of 08:08 on Mar 26, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 07:59
|
|
|
Prince Myshkin posted:The famous Soviet death camps of Auschwitz, which the Soviets also deviously liberated, perhaps as some elaborate form of Asiatic trickery.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:06
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:National-scale sanctions are absolutely horrific and should be roundly illegal under international law. idk about sanctioning a handful of administration officials that are explicitly complicit. historically those have been fairly effective at creating pressure and I've never seen really any case made for those causing significant (or even really any?) collateral damage. I've always gotten the impression that individual sanctions are meant to prime the pump for nationwide sanctions and signal to other parties that they shouldn't do business with that country. Even if the sanctioning party continues to do business with that country in order to obtain things we need.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:10
|
|
|
Mandoric posted:And wew, good fuckin' luck finding an East Asian part of the "free world" that hasn't also done most its big policy debates as between factions in the ruling party while the opposition/coalition parties (of which China has several ineffective ones--it's a good example of how China is not particularly better either!) sat off to the side. My inclination is to mostly write it off as a mismatch between the terms for "party" and "bloc", but if you want to advocate some skull-measuring, there but for the grace of God. There are blocs and movements within the UK Conservatives, too, but in spite of this, political parties inexplicably choose to exist outside Johnson's revolutionary vanguard
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:12
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:National-scale sanctions are absolutely horrific and should be roundly illegal under international law. idk about sanctioning a handful of administration officials that are explicitly complicit. historically those have been fairly effective at creating pressure and I've never seen really any case made for those causing significant (or even really any?) collateral damage. "Targeted" sanctions are pretty much bullshit if it's the US imposing them, and they lead to the exact same results as "national" sanctions. The US dollar regime means if you sanction officials in charge of trade or finances you're going to, in practice, be denying the people of a country the fruits of that trade. Economic Sanctions as Collective Punishment: The Case of Venezuela quote:It is important to emphasize that nearly all of the foreign exchange that is needed to import medicine,food, medical equipment, spare parts and equipment needed for electricity generation, water systems, or transportation, is received by the Venezuelan economy through the government’s revenue from the export of oil. Thus, any sanctions that reduce export earnings, and therefore government revenue, thereby reduce the imports of these essential and, in many cases, life-saving goods.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:17
|
|
|
Eugene V. Dubstep posted:But surely it gives you pause that, in a country with 1.4 billion people split among 56 recognised ethnic groups who speak almost 300 different languages, there exists no political party in opposition to the CCP. It might make you wonder, golly, maybe there's some self-censorship going on here. Heck, maybe even actual external censorship! this is absolutely idiotic. of course there are factions within the CCP that vie for political power and seats, but because they arent Named Parties in the Democracy Sense they don't count have you considered that going "well, my country has parties, yours doesnt have them according to this wikipedia page?" is extremely boneheaded when the countries have completely different governmental systems?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:20
|
|
|
Prince Myshkin posted:"Targeted" sanctions are pretty much bullshit if it's the US imposing them, and they lead to the exact same results as "national" sanctions. The US dollar regime means if you sanction officials in charge of trade or finances you're going to, in practice, be denying the people of a country the fruits of that trade. I wonder what it's like to work at the sanction office, making sure everyone is properly sanctioned and in an orderly fashion
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:21
|
|
|
looking at a ballot: how do I know who the good guys are if both candidates are from the same party????
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:22
|
|
|
i might not agree with the falun gong, i might even find them despicable, but the fact that they are banned from holding office is unacceptable
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:23
|
|
|
BrainDance posted:Yeah but that would be to Urumqi. Xinjiang is actually a lot bigger than Poland. Like more than a few times bigger. I got Socratic because that was the way we were trending, in a seriously materialist sense I'm mostly of the hard-learned opinion that the impact on the urban population would have been noticeable.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:26
|
|
|
BrainDance posted:Yeah but that would be to Urumqi. Xinjiang is actually a lot bigger than Poland. Like more than a few times bigger. I think the baseline assumption being contested is that the entire region is a black box, which is obviously untrue. Just because someone traveling there won't be getting a full picture doesn't mean we have to go full tilt in the other direction.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:26
|
|
|
The only way americans have been able to understand the way chinese government works is by either going "well its exactly like ours, but red" or "every elected official is just a red herring, xi jinping has full autocratic control via mind stapling" the idea that any system that isnt exactly our form of democratic republic must be some sort of monarchist autocracy is years of american propaganda poisoning the brain
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:28
|
|
|
Varinn posted:this is absolutely idiotic. of course there are factions within the CCP that vie for political power and seats, but because they arent Named Parties in the Democracy Sense they don't count That's true, and it's why I have a lot of faith in Li Keqiang, but there is 'a party line.' The laws party members have to follow, which have actual legal enforcement, do say they cannot express an opinion that differs from the party's. That's not an implied rule, but a specific, relatively new rule. What percentage of the party's 10s of millions of members would ever have a position where they would actually be able to influence the party's overall position?
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:29
|
|
|
BrainDance posted:That's true, and it's why I have a lot of faith in Li Keqiang, but there is 'a party line.' The laws party members have to follow, which have actual legal enforcement, do say they cannot express an opinion that differs from the party's. That's not an implied rule, but a specific, relatively new rule. What percentage of the party's 10s of millions of members would ever have a position where they would actually be able to influence the party's overall position? Sure, and I'm not like coming out in ardent defense of any specific thing here, I don't know poo poo about specifics, but its hard to not think that this isn't equally true of most americans, as well. Any american leftist should understand more than anyone that deep political variation can be had within what is considered a single party
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:34
|
|
|
china has more parties represented in their govt than the US lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 08:35
|
|
|
Eugene V. Dubstep posted:could you do me a favour and either directly label the columns you're talking about or be more clear? I can't read any variety of Chinese and I'm becoming v confused by your 'according to second column of additions and the fourth one of removals' It's the two columns with the golf club shaped header. First one should be performed IUDs, second one removed IUDs. As numerous posters have pointed out, a lot of provinces have more removals since the one child policy has been replaced with a universal two child policy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 09:07
|
|
|
BrainDance posted:Yeah but that would be to Urumqi. Xinjiang is actually a lot bigger than Poland. Like more than a few times bigger. The Zenz number is about 25% of the Uighur and something along the line of 10% of the total population in camps. I don't think you could hide something of that order of magnitude if the more populated parts can be readily accessed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 09:11
|
|
|
Deified Data posted:I would like to push back a bit against the assertion that China is being accused of "cultural genocide"
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 09:16
|
|
|
genericnick posted:The Zenz number is about 25% of the Uighur and something along the line of 10% of the total population in camps. I don't think you could hide something of that order of magnitude if the more populated parts can be readily accessed. Well, he's a giant dweeb and I hate him. I don't take anything he says seriously. I can't speak for everyone but where I'm coming from, I'm really, really critical of the party. I'm incredibly suspicious of what they're doing in Xinjiang. I avoid 'genocide or not' discussions because I think, outside of specific situations that's a dumb way to go about it. You get into stupid semantics arguments. The question should be, are they doing something that's morally indefensible? Whatever noun you want for it, that's what really matters. I also believe that clearly the US is manufacturing a poo poo ton of consent right now to portray China as Soviet Russia 2.0, and they're as full of poo poo as ever. Zenz could say that they fed 10 billion babies to dogs, and it wouldn't really surprise me, but it also would not change the rightness or the wrongness of anything the Chinese government or the party are doing. It does gently caress up the conversation though, because there's more bullshit to sift through to get a clear picture of anything. And I get that, if you're actually in America it's probably a lot harder. I'm not saying the truth is in the middle cuz it's not, really. But just how irrelevant America really is if you're actually concerned with coming to a truthful conclusion about a lot of China stuff.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 09:27
|
|
|
i should note that as far as the moderation issue goes i have not seen anyone popping up out of nowhere to defend the camps in xinjiang to the contrary i have seen people come in to threads to poo poo all over people for being tankies on the issue despite it not actually being on topic so i dont know where this weird idea came from that genocide deniers are taking over the subforum
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 09:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 18:46 |
|
|
BrainDance posted:Well, he's a giant dweeb and I hate him. I don't take anything he says seriously. I want to say "they're portraying China as Soviet Russia 2.0 and that should tell you something", but I definitely understand this position, and while I feel it's more comparative than you think I also feel like I misjudged you initially. Thank you for the chance to revise my conceptualization, I've learned something this thread 
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 09:49
|
|