Haifisch posted:I kinda wonder if backlash against AA4 in general(it's fun, but it's absolutely the weakest AA game imo) was misinterpreted as backlash against non-playable Nick specifically. It'd also explain why they did jack poo poo with any of the other long-term plot hooks they laid down in it(tell Trucy and Apollo they're siblings already, dammit He can't, he has to wait for the weddign
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 19:20
|
|
).
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 23:30 |
|
|
I can't wait to learn Athena's convoluted backstory in Apollo Justice 2.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 19:56
|
|
|
AA6 was already Apollo Justice 2 tbh.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 21:14
|
|
|
Thinking about the guy at capcom whose job it is to not let takumi do what he wants
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 21:16
|
|
|
Funky Valentine posted:I can't wait to learn Athena's convoluted backstory in Apollo Justice 2. Athena's father is Lamoir's brother and hired the Phantom and is also a magican who dated Morgan Fey at one point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 22:09
|
|
|
No Mods No Masters posted:Thinking about the guy at capcom whose job it is to not let takumi do what he wants Takumi did DaiGyaku.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 22:25
|
|
|
I think Takumi snuck away and made DGS without that guy knowing. Then when he got found out he was put in monster hunter jail
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 22:27
|
|
|
I wonder if the newfound international audience at the time was a factor in Capcom's cold feet about leaving Phoenix behind for 4, maybe not wanting to pull him away so soon after the rest of the world met him.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 23:01
|
|
|
I know general thread opinion has turned away from it but even in this thread at AA6's release there were a bunch of people that hoped the series would be more about Phoenix and that they should drop Athena and Apollo. I don't know how the Japanese fans felt but I definitely had the impression that there was a sizeable part of the Western audience that just wanted the series to be about Phoenix and Maya.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 23:08
|
|
|
There was, and is. I think AA6 struck a good balance personally. But I do also hope Athena gets a game front and center.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 23:15
|
|
|
They just have not known what to do with Athena.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 23:26
|
|
|
they should make another edgeworth game instead. sorry athena.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 23:41
|
|
|
Oughta give us the other one they did make first!!!
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 23:44
|
|
|
f u capcom
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 23:47
|
|
|
Screw all the new characters, I want to see what Gumshoe is doing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2021 23:59
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:Screw all the new characters, I want to see what Gumshoe is doing. Opened up his own zoo after taking in so many animals.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 00:24
|
|
|
dick gumshoe detective investigations, which plays just like the edgeworth games except you're scripted to misconstrue all the evidence and at the end of every case you put the wrong person in prison
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 00:32
|
|
|
One of the subtler touches I enjoyed about the Apollo trilogy is that you're dealing with competent detectives who don't bungle the evidence, and instead all misconceptions about the crime scene are caused by a guilty party manipulating it or Klavier being the prosecutor. Except in the last DLC case where Ema turns into a pale imitation of Gumshoe for nostalgia reasons. Which kinda sucked.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 01:03
|
|
|
Gumshoe is now mayor of Los Angeltokyo. He makes $0.35 an hour.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 01:07
|
|
|
When exactly was "bungling the evidence" a trademark of the series?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 03:45
|
|
|
There are a bunch of cases where you discover a contradiction only to find it's because of an out-of-date autopsy report or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 03:53
|
|
|
The autopsy report happens literally once.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 04:02
|
|
|
That's also why I really like Klavier as a game's prosecutor. His rock star gimmick wasn't my favorite after the first case or so, but he was a cool dude with a solid ethical backbone who never hosed with the cases he was presented with. I understand the appeal of more active antagonists, but I was down with his "your smarter coworker" energy, and I wouldn't be against seeing that kind of vibe again in the future. I haven't played DaiGyaku yet, though I plan to correct that soon. I've listened to the soundtrack of the games (and spoiled myself a little), and some of those songs are killer.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 04:07
|
|
|
Klavier had the most beautifully animated air guitar sprites.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 04:09
|
|
|
Waffleman_ posted:The autopsy report happens literally once. To be fair, it's a very iconic one time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 04:11
|
|
|
Irisize posted:To be fair, it's a very iconic one time. It’s like the first thing Edgeworth does, top 5 memorable moment series-wide
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 04:33
|
|
|
I watched a playthrough of the first DGS up through the start of case 4. I loved what I watched and was so happy my initial reaction and impression to (is it still appropriate to spoiler characters by now? Just in case...) Sherlock and Watson were very, very wrong, I adore them both. I hope the official translation is just as strong as the lovingly crafted fan one.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 14:09
|
|
|
Amppelix posted:When exactly was "bungling the evidence" a trademark of the series? Maybe that's a bit strong, but there are plenty of contradictions based solely on Gumshoe being a gently caress-up. Like when he presents a knife with a hotel logo on it and says it was the defendant's personal property, or argues that stealing an item with no sale value fits Mask*DeMasque's profile, or messes with a bucket at a murder scene... actually I can't come up with good examples off the top of my head. It may be an exaggeration on my part. Blue Labrador posted:That's also why I really like Klavier as a game's prosecutor. His rock star gimmick wasn't my favorite after the first case or so, but he was a cool dude with a solid ethical backbone who never hosed with the cases he was presented with. I understand the appeal of more active antagonists, but I was down with his "your smarter coworker" energy, and I wouldn't be against seeing that kind of vibe again in the future. Uh? Klavier is by far the sleaziest prosecutor you go up against. He cheats in every single case. Half of case 4-3 is him just wasting your time because he wants to laugh at Ema. In 4-4 you tear his case to shreds and provide evidence of the actual murder weapon, but he says that doesn't count and then starts pressuring the witness to commit perjury in front of everyone. In the flashback he conspires with a third party to frame Phoenix. Everything that happens in that game is because Klavier wanted a cheap win againt Phoenix Wright. The only case he doesn't cheat in is 4-2, and that's only by Ace Attorney standards. He still tries to throw the case out the window for petty reasons multiple times, including the slam dunk "you've proven everything that happened but I will let the murderer go unless you can explain why the victim didn't drive a car to the scene."
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 19:43
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:Maybe that's a bit strong, but there are plenty of contradictions based solely on Gumshoe being a gently caress-up. Like when he presents a knife with a hotel logo on it and says it was the defendant's personal property, or argues that stealing an item with no sale value fits Mask*DeMasque's profile, or messes with a bucket at a murder scene... actually I can't come up with good examples off the top of my head. It may be an exaggeration on my part. he really just gave off that impression more than he actually did it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 20:08
|
|
|
Uh, no, it's pretty explicit that the framing was all Kristoph. Klavier was just as much of a pawn and he gets mad about it. He wasn't told "Let's frame Phoenix Wright," he was told "Hey brother, Phoenix Wright is going to cheat"
Waffleman_ fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Mar 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 20:12
|
|
|
it's not so much that gumshoe presents the wrong evidence as it is he misses things or interprets them wrongly to the benefit of a prosecution that has no interest in correcting him, and setting the record right is basically what you do every time he's on the stand
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 20:36
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:Uh? Klavier is by far the sleaziest prosecutor you go up against. He cheats in every single case. Half of case 4-3 is him just wasting your time because he wants to laugh at Ema. In 4-4 you tear his case to shreds and provide evidence of the actual murder weapon, but he says that doesn't count and then starts pressuring the witness to commit perjury in front of everyone. In the flashback he conspires with a third party to frame Phoenix. Everything that happens in that game is because Klavier wanted a cheap win againt Phoenix Wright. I haven't played AA4 in a long, long while, so you may have some decent points. However, I do agree with Waffleman that he was definitely not guilty of conspiracy in case 3. He was presented as being manipulated by his brother, and his regret for his role in that case is made explicit during the course of the game, and is the emotional core of his character arc. That definitely doesn't make him less foolish (and doesn't excuse his general dickishness during that case), but I feel like it's portrayed as youthful naiveté rather than maliciousness. As for 4-2, you may be correct, but I remember a line in the case's climax where Apollo proposes that Klavier figured out the murderer's identity well beforehand, so I took the latter's drawing out of the case as his way of reinforcing and testing Apollo's logic and mettle, which is--in the AA universe at least--what a prosecutor's job should ideally entail. I don't remember very many other moments of his though, so maybe he does have a lot of sleazebag dickery I didn't catch when I played it, especially because I was a teenager/young adult at the time. I'll have to double check videos or a text dump to see if my points hold water.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 20:40
|
|
|
Fur20 posted:it's not so much that gumshoe presents the wrong evidence as it is he misses things or interprets them wrongly to the benefit of a prosecution that has no interest in correcting him, and setting the record right is basically what you do every time he's on the stand When I realized this is what was happening to Ema in SoJ's DLC I was so disappointed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 20:55
|
|
|
Waffleman_ posted:Uh, no, it's pretty explicit that the framing was all Kristoph. Klavier was just as much of a pawn and he gets mad about it. He wasn't told "Let's frame Phoenix Wright," he was told "Hey brother, Phoenix Wright is going to cheat" The whole case is sorta contrived, and I'll grant that in-universe Klavier was suckered, but he had enough information to see through it if he really wanted to. Phoenix had only been on the case for a week, and if Klavier had bothered questioning his own surprise witness he'd have figured out that the conspiracy was older than that. Phoenix' investigation into the case stalled because he didn't know who Gramarye's previous representation was, because Gramarye had disappeared and no legal record existed. If Klavier cared about more than cheap victories, he would at least have bothered to look into the second suspect in the case. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Mar 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 20:56
|
|
|
why are you blaming klavier specifically for the contrivance that all opponents in this series share where they have to make you figure out the whole case yourself and can't be too cooperative even when it would make sense to do so
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
That contrivance is more a consequence of a muder mystery series happening in a courtroom. It wouldn't be narratively satisfying to just go "Defendant is not guilty but I guess we don't know who did it" so you do have to solve it yourself.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 21:17
|
|
|
Because I don't like Klavier or the games pretending he plays fair when he very clearly doesn't.  Also "why didn't he drive a car" is super weaksauce. The prosecution's last objection tends to have a lot more punch.Like, Godot's final objection the first time you face him is that you have proven that Atmey is hella sketchy, but not that he was ever even at the scene of the crime. That is a very fair objection. Edgeworth makes no secret of the fact that he is shady as hell and rules lawyering you in case 1-2. Franziska kind of falls apart when her case does but the last question in 2-2 is "who even is the witness" and that's a pertinent question. E: Edited this into a previous post, but I've moved it to this one: In 4-3, he figures that Machi can see and Lamiroir is blind, but doesn't bother to correct anyone when you spend most of the trial operating under these assumptions. When pressed, he says he thought their brand was more important than a murder trial and also that he enjoys watching Ema be wrong. Ema calls him a dick but the courtroom just lets it slide. In 4-4, when you prove that the coffee wasn't poisoned and that there was poison in the stamp frame, he says that that doesn't prove there was a poison stamp. When Apollo then asks Sparkel to testify about seeing the victim post a letter, Klavier says something along the lines of "hey, every second you spend in this courtroom is a second closer to another journalist breaking this story. This is your scoop, right? We all want to wrap this case up as soon as possible. You didn't really see the victim post a letter, did you? I can let you go right now if you happen to 'remember' that your previous testimony was a mistake." 4-0 can be chalked up to youthful indiscretion or blind trust, but the latter two are super egregious. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Mar 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 21:20
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:The whole case is sorta contrived, and I'll grant that in-universe Klavier was suckered, but he had enough information to see through it if he really wanted to. Phoenix had only been on the case for a week, and if Klavier had bothered questioning his own surprise witness he'd have figured out that the conspiracy was older than that. Phoenix' investigation into the case stalled because he didn't know who Gramarye's previous representation was, because Gramarye had disappeared and no legal record existed. I mean, I agree on this, but he was a snotnosed little kid who thought he was gonna be exposing a legend of the legal world as a fraud on his first ever trial.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 21:33
|
|
|
Klavier tends to side with Apollo one he realizes they have the real purp there. Remember that Klavier does not investigate and so just assumes the police brought him the right suspect.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 21:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 23:30 |
|
|
They didn't know how to write a prosecutor who was a good dude but still have him provide a challenge so while they didn't have him actually train witnesses or anything Klavier still goes along with or aids a witnesses lies and then when you point out the contradictions anyway the game has him act like that's what he was hoping would happen. It's an issue they still had with Blackquill but they pulled it off much better with him.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2021 21:37
|
|