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DC Murderverse posted:There are also moments where she does something surprising, like being scared of ghosts and it’s just there to be a moment where she jumps into the protag’s arms instead of an interesting character beat. Makoto is such a Velma how did that happen? To be fair, there are a few more moments where she does jump so being easily startled is just a small trait of hers, EG at the end of the 7th palace she and Futaba jump and hug each other when they're startled. Harrow posted:A few of the individual scenes have a focus! It's just that they don't really link together in any way to create, y'know, a narrative. Having her be Tower would feel kinda morbid. Like, in P5 the Tower art has the people jumping off of it.  I really like the P5 tarot cards but uh, the theme of having them being inverted/twisted/corrupt/whatever versions of the regular cards doesn't actually fit for most of them. Acerbatus fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Mar 28, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2021 18:30
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tower doesn't need any twisting, it's one of the cards that has a negative connotation even when it's upright (and it does fit shiho's predicament fairly well) like there's a reason the moon-aligned s. links tend to be kind of difficult to get along with
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Mar 28, 2021 18:44
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Feels Villeneuve posted:not to subs/dubs things (and P5 has notably worse translation than P4 or P5S, which IIRC was a time constraints thing), but it's really rare that i see english-language voice actors do grade-school aged kids well I’m torn because I really don’t like his voice but the lady who did it was Rita Repulsa in the MMPR dub so I don’t think I can criticize her without betraying my 8-year-old self
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Mar 28, 2021 19:46
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I think in Makoto's case, she needed a Confidant link story that was something other than stalk my new best friend to get her to break up with her creepy boyfriend to better flesh out her character.
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Mar 28, 2021 20:11
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Makoto's confidant was so loving bad.
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Mar 28, 2021 20:24
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Harrow posted:I could be biased against gun kid because his English voice acting is some of the worst in all of P5 and it made me laugh when some random other kid in his confidant actually sounded like a kid and I was like "why didn't they just cast that actor as Shinya"
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Mar 28, 2021 21:27
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Commander Keene posted:I just kept hearing Laharl every time Shinya opened his mouth because Barbara Goodson has one voice. It's a very Cool and Good voice however. "AAAAA THIS HACKER IS GIVING ME SUCH A HEADACHE"
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Mar 28, 2021 21:41
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Commander Keene posted:I just kept hearing Laharl every time Shinya opened his mouth because Barbara Goodson has one voice. Rude, she's good in fire emblem https://youtu.be/G7OXHvqpkLQ
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Mar 28, 2021 22:01
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she's too old to voice younger characters, is all. wasn't always the case! she knocked it out of the park in FLCL like the above, she can still put her creaky old-lady pipes to good use
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Mar 28, 2021 22:10
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I'm still not sure what they were going for with Ann's S. Link. The main thing I remember was rooting for her model rival, who was actually putting effort into the modeling job unlike Ann. It might have been better if it built up on what one of the classmates said at the start of the game about Ann getting men after her because she's half-American. An exploration of the kind of issues a biracial teen runs into would be pretty interesting. ...Though I guess that would just make it a retread of what Lisa from P2 did, huh? ApplesandOranges posted:Nope! She gets mentioned once in a passing remark in Strikers, that's it. Spiffster posted:she is mentioned once in strikers that I can remember because she is wanting to buy her something like a souvenir while they are out. I think she is mentioned in Royal as well but I cant remember I had my expectations set low, but OOF. You'd think she'd be more important considering how she's the catalyst for the Phantom Thieves to start what they did.
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Mar 28, 2021 22:35
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Oxxidation posted:tower doesn't need any twisting, it's one of the cards that has a negative connotation even when it's upright (and it does fit shiho's predicament fairly well) Yeah but in Persona it tends to be about characters that are a bit too proud/set in their ways and need to be taken down a peg to grow, and that's a bit uhh... if we're talking about Shiho. Going by previous games she's more of a Star or Sun, someone who keeps their spirit up despite the world making GBS threads on them for no reason. Strength would also work for pretty much the same reasons. Of course, it'd be interesting to explore different approaches to the same card but generally speaking I don't think that the archetypes change all that much between games. Ibram Gaunt posted:Makoto's confidant was so loving bad. There's a lot of party members whose quality of their Social Link is inversely correlated with how good they are in the main plot.
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Mar 28, 2021 22:40
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Maybe I'm dumb but I'm not sure how Ohya fits into Devil.
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Mar 28, 2021 22:42
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amigolupus posted:I'm still not sure what they were going for with Ann's S. Link. The main thing I remember was rooting for her model rival, who was actually putting effort into the modeling job unlike Ann. Ann's SLink was about how she's a flake, she makes token gestures towards several different methods of self improvement but doesn't commit and gives up easily when it doesn't immediately work out like she thought. This is contrasted by Shiho going through painful rehab so she can walk again, and Mika (had to look that up ) using every dirty trick in the book to advance her career. Ann admires them both for giving their all towards one goal, and resolves to do that herself with her modelling career.Still could have been done better but hey. Acerbatus posted:Maybe I'm dumb but I'm not sure how Ohya fits into Devil. If I recall correctly, Devil is giving up on the world for material pleasures. Ohya has given up on her pursuit of the truth of her partner and instead spends all her free time getting smashed.
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Mar 28, 2021 22:55
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YaketySass posted:Yeah but in Persona it tends to be about characters that are a bit too proud/set in their ways and need to be taken down a peg to grow, and that's a bit uhh... if we're talking about Shiho. Going by previous games she's more of a Star or Sun, someone who keeps their spirit up despite the world making GBS threads on them for no reason. Strength would also work for pretty much the same reasons. I'm... not sure someone who jumps off a roof before you even start the link would work for either Arcana. I... guess she could work for Moon? Don't Strength representatives usually get eaten up by self-doubts they place on themselves? Yuko, Daisuke, Kou. I don't think that works with Shiho's arc either.
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Mar 28, 2021 23:22
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YaketySass posted:Yeah but in Persona it tends to be about characters that are a bit too proud/set in their ways and need to be taken down a peg to grow, and that's a bit uhh... if we're talking about Shiho. Going by previous games she's more of a Star or Sun, someone who keeps their spirit up despite the world making GBS threads on them for no reason. Strength would also work for pretty much the same reasons. Yeah, that's true. Shiho would fit the Tower as a card but not really the way it's used as a character archetype in the Persona series. Maybe Death? Big emphasis on someone already brought low, who no longer believe in themselves and may even think they deserve to suffer, and undergoing a sort of rebirth/reawakening. Takemi is a pretty good confidant, though, and Death is the right arcana for her, too, so I dunno.
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Mar 29, 2021 01:24
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I feel like there's a monkey's paw aspect to this whole "Shiho as an SLink" discussion because there's no way they'd do it and not have her be romanceable.
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Mar 29, 2021 01:35
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are there any writeups for all the arcana about what they represent and how they fit each persona 5 character?
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Mar 29, 2021 01:40
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I could try to throw something together in that vein but it might take a bit.
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Mar 29, 2021 01:47
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Alacron posted:I feel like there's a monkey's paw aspect to this whole "Shiho as an SLink" discussion because there's no way they'd do it and not have her be romanceable.
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Mar 29, 2021 02:45
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I'm glad atlus wasn't cowardly and finally let me date my teacher for real.
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Mar 29, 2021 02:55
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Tarot cards have been interesting to me ever since I first played Persona 4. The important thing to remember about the major arcana is that they’re really just vague themes that you can read whatever you want into, because psychic poo poo is fake! That said, there’s still some light fun to be had in them. So, let’s link all of Persona 5’s major characters to their arcana and see how they’re related. 0: Fool: Igor/Joker The Fool is, of course, the wild card in Persona lore, which allows for infinite possibilities in exchange for not having much of a personality. Upright represents what you’d expect: the beginning of a journey, free-spiritedness, idealism/innocence, stuff like that. Reversed it represents recklessness or carelessness, gullibility or foolishness. Basically, it’s the card of the hero on the start of their journey, who lacks experience and world-weariness for all the bad and good that entails. Igor is the Confidant of the Fool, and… it doesn’t really work too well, IMO? Like, if you squint you can maaaaaybe get Igor being a false mentor working against you from the reversed position, but it doesn’t super work with the way you interact with him in the game. But that’s not the only character we need to look at through that lens, because Joker is the real Fool! And he fits pretty well, in the sense that all the Persona silent protagonists necessarily must, being blank slates. Joker’s selfless intervention at the start of the game leading to his arrest makes him a good candidate for this, though. I: The Magician: Morgana The Magician is typically the “best friend” character in Persona, your closest confidant (heh). In Persona 5, those are two different characters, so they gave it to the latter. The Magician represents willpower and potential, as well as resourcefulness and skill. Reversed, it’s more along the lines of trickery and deception. Honestly, I can kind of see Morgana in both aspects. He’s the Phantom Thief who’s the most resourceful (with his infiltration tools), and he has a strong wish to be human that he chases after without abandon. However, that goal is an illusion, obfuscating his true purpose. II: The High Priestess: Makoto Niijima The High Priestess (or just “Priestess” in Persona) represents intuition and the spiritual. It’s about listening to that intuition instead of your intellect. Reversed, it’s about one’s intuition being suppressed, about confusion and secrecy. Honestly… this one’s kind of a stretch. Makoto is the “smart” member of the team, sure, and I guess if you really squint you might see something in her Confidant about her using her intuition and feeling burdened by raw intelligence? Also, her Persona is the loving Pope, so there’s that. Honestly, I’d switch have her switch arcanas with Strength or even Empress if I could. The last thing I’ll say here is that one of the definitions I found mentions “unattainability” in a romantic sense, which, sure, we’ll go with that, close enough. III: Empress: Haru Okumura The Empress represents femininity, nature, beauty, fertility and nurturing, creativity, stuff like that. Reversed, it’s dependence, negligence and insecurity. Haru’s pretty obvious: besides her green thumb, she’s the most overbearingly sweet member of the party (despite her dark streak), as well as one of the less self-assured. I still might switch her with Makoto, because Makoto’s pretty much the team mom and Haru at least kind of fits Priestess with that part of her Confidant about her need to use her intuition or whatever to trust someone at her company. IV: Emperor: Yusuke Kitagawa Yusuke doesn’t fit neatly into Emperor either, unfortunately. Emperor is about authority, structure, organization, practicality, and protection. It’s about being A Dad, basically. Reversed, it’s about tyranny, rigidity, and stubbornness. Looking at this, Yusuke is… not really any of those things, except maybe “rigid.” This might be the most forced one I’ve seen, honestly. I can sort of see what they’re trying to do with this one, in that Yusuke is a very reserved character (almost to the point of repression), I just don’t think it has anything to do with the main theme of the arcana. D-, see me after class. V: Hierophant: Sojiro Sakura The Hierophant (or the Pope) is the male equivalent to the High Priestess. It represents tradition, conformity, conventionality, and knowledge. Reversed, it’s pretty much exactly the opposite: rebellion, non-conformity, and ignorance. This one makes sense to me; Sojiro is a character who has elements of both positions. He’s kind of set in his ways and distrustful of Joker, but slowly opens up and reveals he’s more like him than he initially let on. Still, I might switch Emperor and Hierophant, that would make a tiny bit more sense to me. That’s all I’m going to do tonight, but I’ll try to get more done tomorrow if people found this informative.
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Mar 29, 2021 02:59
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None of the Emperor characters really fit into the meaning of the Emperor except for maybe the jackass from P3, this goes back to Boy With Earring.
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Mar 29, 2021 03:03
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I finished the main part of the game and the biggest change in the Royal section is everyone getting a fashion upgrade. I dig Futaba’s new hoodie, Akechi and Joker both look less like dweebs, and Kasumi goes 2/2 on outfits in the first two days
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Mar 29, 2021 03:22
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Yeah I was gonna say Kanji doesn't fit in too well under the Emperor arcana given that description. Yosuke, Yukiko and Dojima seem to fit their respective Arcanas, but Margaret as Empress is another stretch.
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Mar 29, 2021 03:24
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People are too focused on the meanings as applied to the character personalities. Tarot Cards aren't a personality test, they're meant to portray steps in a person's life and circumstances that will befall them. Yusuke is emperor because he was controlled by his teacher. Kanji is emperor because he was controlled by society's expectations of him and tried to take control back by being an aggressive, dominant personality. Kanji especially fits Emperor very well, because there's an element of weakness or softness beneath the attempts at control, which fits Kanji to a T.
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Mar 29, 2021 03:27
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That's fair, my descriptions might have come across incorrectly. High Priestess still doesn't really work for me for Makoto though.
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Mar 29, 2021 03:32
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I love Royal Akechi, he no longer has to hide that he’s a broken sociopath and everything that comes out of his mouth is the most sneering disdain, it’s hilarious. He’s like the real life “I’m going to turn into the Joker” except in this case Joker turned him into like, Two-Face Edit: ah oh my god his showtime turns him into loving psycho batman DC Murderverse fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Mar 29, 2021 |
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Mar 29, 2021 03:35
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DC Murderverse posted:I love Royal Akechi, he no longer has to hide that he’s a broken sociopath and everything that comes out of his mouth is the most sneering disdain, it’s hilarious. He’s like the real life “I’m going to turn into the Joker” except in this case Joker turned him into like, Two-Face It is a much needed change and got me to actually like him as a character.
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Mar 29, 2021 03:37
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It's kind of tricky to apply most of these, honestly. Do they relate to the character? To their personality? To their relation to the main character? Are they entirely circumstantial to their story or Confidant? It's a bit inconsistent at best. The next one on the list was Lovers, which is honestly pretty obvious in its symbolism for Ann's Confidant, though.
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Mar 29, 2021 03:39
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Gay Rat Wedding posted:are there any writeups for all the arcana about what they represent and how they fit each persona 5 character? It's interesting because all of the P5 tarots are 'corrupt' versions, with things like the person in Strength smirking as she hurts the lion or Justice having money outweigh the scales, as if they were supposed to start with the reversed meanings and grow but uh... It doesn't work that way for a lot of them. Maybe next time.  I'll mention the reversals when they come up. A note: Most of what I know about tarots comes from reading Edward Waite's (co-creator of the Rider-Waite tarot deck) Pictorial Key to the Tarot, which I gave a read after playing P4 for the first time because I'd heard that the Rider-Waite deck influenced Persona's tarot motiffs. According to that, reversals don't just mean the opposite of the upright interpretation. 0/Fool: Beginnings, folly and free spirit. Reversed, apathy and vanity. Late spoilers: The way I see it, 'Igor' isn't the fool, so much as he views people through the lens of the reversed Fool. He's a controlling prison master who doesn't think people can make choices for themselves and need to be lead. In this way, he represents both the upright and reversed Fool. In P5, the Fool tarot has the dog attacking the fool instead of joining him on his journey. Perhaps a sign that 'Igor' isn't as benevolent as he seems? 1/Magician: Initiative and confidence Morgana lacks in confidence significantly. He postures a lot but is clearly insecure, constantly picking fights with Ryuji. He wants to take initiative, but ultimately relies on Joker for everything. Ultimately, Morgana starts off just wanting to go do Mementos and palaces go go go. The P5 Magician cut himself with a dagger; Perhaps meaning OVERconfidence? That works for Morgana. 2/The High Priestess: Wisdom. Reversed, shallow knowledge Makoto is academically smart, but when put into more real world situations she's known to know pretty much nothing. She views academic knowledge as being important to the exclusion of everything else. The P5 High Priestess is reading a porno mag instead of scripture, which... Doesn't really fit Makoto. Only number two and we're starting to have issues. 3/Empress: Nurturing, Authority, but in a comforting way; Difficulty and doubt. Haru basically always puts the people around her over herself. She worries about how the party members are doing, the employees in the company, and so on. However, she's put into circumstances she never expected or prepared to be in, throwing everything into chaos and making her conflicted and paranoid. The P5 Empress is sitting with her legs spread and brandishing her scepter like she's going to hit someone with it which... Doesn't fit Haru. Yeah uh, they didn't entirely commit to this theme, did they? I really don't know where they were going with this. 4/Emperor: Great people, realization and conviction. Reversed: immaturity Yusuke starts up with a great deal of conviction, his belief in the beauty and value of art being absolute. However after Madarame's palace, he backslides into throwing a fit over how worldly desires corrupt people and art is all tarnished by that. In the end, he starts to understand that it's alright if people want to make a living off of it. One can truly love something for the both it's meaning and make money off of it, and keeping a balance is fine. 5/Hierophant: Tradition and education; To others, servitude and goodness. Sojiro works best for the second interpretation with a bit of the first. He's a good guy, but he tries to keep his head down and stay out of trouble even when taking some initiative is the right thing. He's pretty clear at the start that if Joker just kept his head down, he'd be better off. 6/The Lovers: Beauty, trials overcome. Reversed, foolishness and half-baked plans. Ann's is a bit less "view on life" and more literal. She makes a ton of poorly thought out plans to 'become strong' without really getting what inner strength is. 7/The Chariot: Self control, Vengeance and triumph. Reversed, defeat and arguments The Chariot is Ryuij's character arc. He starts off defeated, helpless against Kamoshida due to a lack of self control (and of course Kamoshida being a huge piece of poo poo, but we're talking about Ryuji here), at least from his perspective. He ultimately gets revenge on Kamoshida, then matures from the entire experience to the point where he tells the guy on the track team to hit him if it'll make him feel better instead of picking a fight like he would have before. 8/Justice: Moral character in the form of honor and fairness. The right side of law winning in the end. Reversed, bigotry and excessive severity Akechi falls victim to the bigotry side of things. He's treated unfairly by society and his father until he decides to punish society (and Shido in particular) for what they've done to him; In his eyes, that is the right side winning at last. Anyways I've spent like 20 minutes on this already, but that's half of them. The meanings for the other tarots are more or less as follows. 9/The Hermit: Treason and corruption, healing and recover over time. Reversed: Hiding, over-caution 10/Wheel of Fortune: Destiny 11/Strength: Gentleness and courage ("Strength" of character, if you will). Reversed: Abuse of power 12/The Hanged Man: Sacrifice, trials 13/Death: Change. Reversed: Hope destroyed 14/Temperance: Moderation. Reversed: Competing interests 15/The Devil: "Ravage, violence, vehemence", whatever that means; Material and physical pleasure. 16/The Tower: Misery, crisis, ruin. Reversed: Negligence, absence 17/The Star: Loss, or hope. Reversed: Arrogance 18/The Moon: Creativity, insanity, fear, deception and a person's true nature 19/The Sun: Truth, happiness and success 20/Judgement: Uh... Judgement. Also punishment and redemption/second chances. 21/The World: Totality and completion Arist posted:It's kind of tricky to apply most of these, honestly. Do they relate to the character? To their personality? To their relation to the main character? Are they entirely circumstantial to their story or Confidant? It's a bit inconsistent at best. I spent awhile on this post and missed you did one too, which brings me to this point: Tarots are heavily interpretive, so I think it's only fitting that the meaning of each tarot for each character is up to the viewer.
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Mar 29, 2021 04:08
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DC Murderverse posted:I love Royal Akechi, he no longer has to hide that he’s a broken sociopath and everything that comes out of his mouth is the most sneering disdain, it’s hilarious. He’s like the real life “I’m going to turn into the Joker” except in this case Joker turned him into like, Two-Face Yeah it absolutely rules. He's such a fun character to watch when he's actually being himself--not the fake detective prince, not the "drive himself psychotic with Loki" slasher mode, but Akechi as he really is. Joker gets to have some fun reactions to him, especially in response to Yoshizawa's confusion at seeing the real Akechi.
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Mar 29, 2021 04:36
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Harrow posted:Yeah it absolutely rules. He's such a fun character to watch when he's actually being himself--not the fake detective prince, not the "drive himself psychotic with Loki" slasher mode, but Akechi as he really is. Joker gets to have some fun reactions to him, especially in response to Yoshizawa's confusion at seeing the real Akechi. The conversations between him and Palace Ruler Maruki are like literal versions of calmhitler.jpg but instead of genocide it’s... whatever the gently caress Maruki is trying to do
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Mar 29, 2021 04:50
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DC Murderverse posted:The conversations between him and Palace Ruler Maruki are like literal versions of calmhitler.jpg but instead of genocide it’s... whatever the gently caress Maruki is trying to do Takuto Maruki: What If Yaldabaoth, But He's Nice?
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Mar 29, 2021 04:53
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Harrow posted:Yeah it absolutely rules. He's such a fun character to watch when he's actually being himself--not the fake detective prince, not the "drive himself psychotic with Loki" slasher mode, but Akechi as he really is. Joker gets to have some fun reactions to him, especially in response to Yoshizawa's confusion at seeing the real Akechi. He’s without question the best Navigator in the series.
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Mar 29, 2021 05:11
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ROFL Octopus posted:He’s without question the best Navigator in the series. 
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Mar 29, 2021 05:13
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thanks for the writeups.
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Mar 29, 2021 05:15
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The whole deal with that is Maruki truly, sincerely, believes he can make the world without pain, without suffering, with his power. Yaldabaoth would have everyone suffer equally under his yoke, bound to his will, Maruki in turn binds himself to the will of others (through his own interpretation of their needs/desires which can of course be false and is always informed by his own bias) to have nobody suffer ever. Both require the sublimation of self to the mastery of a singular god, and as such is untenable, let alone the fallacious nature of Yaldabaoth's argument against freedom (he literally rigs the entire game to get the result he wants from start to finish and still loses) and the impossible to escape bias of Maruki's life (he thinks everyone is himself, and if he could escape pain he'd do so in a heartbeat, his first ever "success" was his girlfriend who he accepted as dead to him when he accidentally gave her amnesia to save her from her traumatic mind-coma). The entire thing is super interesting and I think Royal's new final adds a lot of context and thought to the original ending as well as standing on it's own. Also Akechi is definitely the best narrator, and some of the lines are things like literally enjoying seeing Joker angry and being excited by Joker's capacity for violence and skill when fighting.
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Mar 29, 2021 05:19
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My one P5R hot take is that Maruki was right. His only issue was his lack of experience in making everyone happy (since some of the "realities" conflicted with each other) but give him a couple of years of godhood and he'd have been able to work the kinks out the system.
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Mar 29, 2021 05:54
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I think the most interesting thing about Maruki's plan is how much better it parallels and follows the tones and themes of P3 and P4. Nyx wanted to give people oblivion so they wouldn't suffer. Ameno-sagiri/Izanami wanted to give people ignorance and complacency so they wouldn't suffer. Yaldabaoth wanted to control everyone, but he did it for his own selfish reasons, not because he believed it was what humanity wanted/needed. But Maruki did. He follows the theme of P3 and P4, tries to give humanity what he thinks it really wants and needs. In return, the party and the game rebutts that struggles and trials are what make life what it is, and that the real work, with all of its highs and lows, will always be better than taking that away for a monotone contentment. Whether or not you agree with that is your own choice, but for all of Persona's trouble with consistent tone and theming, that's one thing that's held true.
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Mar 29, 2021 06:09
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Arist posted:IV: Emperor: Yusuke Kitagawa I'd probably object to this on the grounds that the dad SL has consistently been Hierophant. Sojiro, Dojima, even the Bookstore couple. Shinjiro's actual Arcana is Hierophant and he also fits that mold pretty well.
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Mar 29, 2021 06:32
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