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Slow News Day posted:You should perhaps bookmark the encyclopedic definition posted above so that you can refer to it whenever you find yourself asking this question. "according to webster's dictionary" has never been an acceptable level of discourse in this forum
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Mar 31, 2021 05:38
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paranoid randroid posted:"according to webster's dictionary" has never been an acceptable level of discourse in this forum And the below has been? paranoid randroid posted:youre angrier at the terminology than the existence of the camps
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Mar 31, 2021 05:39
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Slow News Day posted:You should perhaps bookmark the encyclopedic definition posted above so that you can refer to it whenever you find yourself asking this question. Okay fine if you want to play word games, how many days of detention does it take before the word “temporary” no longer applies
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Mar 31, 2021 05:39
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You're arguing about deportation law, I'm arguing about border detention law, Next. Fritz the Horse posted:That seems like an option, but unless I'm misunderstanding we still urgently need to increase caps on the number of immigrants and refugees allowed in through legislation. We still have the bottleneck of a limited number of migrants actually being granted legal status after their hearing. Yes, (these particular) concentration camps are only one part of a much larger persecution system that is vicious at every one of its steps both due to statute and also the outrageous cruelty of the fascist paramilitaries we've recruited en masse to run this nightmare machine. But it would still be hugely beneficial to shutter them immediately and at minimum fire every single CBP official involved in their operation even if no pretext can be found to prosecute them for their crimes against humanity. 
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Mar 31, 2021 05:41
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Yeah you could have a still from that video next to that paragraph in the encyclopedia my dude
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Mar 31, 2021 05:42
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I'm going to go make some food, please everyone take a moment before posting to ask 'does this add anything? is this a shitpost? am I being an rear end in a top hat?' so I don't have to probate a bunch of people when I get backparanoid randroid posted:youre angrier at the terminology than the existence of the camps this isn't helpful
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Mar 31, 2021 05:42
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Slow News Day posted:You should perhaps bookmark the encyclopedic definition posted above so that you can refer to it whenever you find yourself asking this question. Appeals to authority via dictionaries are not acceptable answers in this discussion. Everyone, if you're going to engage in this debate, please put effort into your posts and tell us why you think these camps do or don't count as concentration camps.
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Mar 31, 2021 05:43
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imo the important distinction is: What is the intention of keeping migrants in these facilities? Are we isolating (concentrating!) a group of undesirables (based on ethnicity, religion, political ideology, sexuality, etc) away from the larger society in order to control and oppress them? or Are we housing migrants in deplorable conditions because the system is broken and we don't have the capacity to handle the volume of unaccompanied minors so they're jam-packed sleeping on the floor in plastic-wrapped pens? I think it's some of both and we can argue the degree to which either is at play but it's sort of a distinction without meaning. There are camps on the border. The conditions human beings (kids!) are being subjected to is inhumane, horrifying, and totally unacceptable. The discussion ought not to be "are they concentration camps or internment camps or death camps or maybe summer camps without the acoustic singalongs around a fire??" It's what can we do about them in the real world where those conditions actually exist. edit: grammar, blargh Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 05:46
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Herstory Begins Now posted:this isn't helpful apologies, but im seeing people in USPol talking about how refreshing it is to see a presidential administration that means what it says and intends to be the most progressive force of governance since LBJ signed the civil rights bill, and i will grant that this situation is 12 years in the making and as such cannot be set 100% at the feet of the biden administration. the source of my frustration is that we knew for years that this was going on, to the point where a vote for biden was a vote to end this sort of situation. dems are only just now coming around to acknowledging that old excuses for inaction like the deficit are a fake idea, so when i see people throwing up their hands and crying "well we have no choice but to have things be like this!" i feel its only natural to reply "do we really?" e. i will admit i am being pretty arch at people. apologies again, we probably agree with each other. i just really think the back and forth about which words are according-to-hoyle correct distracts from the salient facts on the ground that these facilities are unacceptable paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 05:47
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The Oldest Man posted:You're arguing about deportation law, I'm arguing about border detention law, Next. I don't think "CBP bad, CBP Nazis, CBP camps bad" are matters anyone here disputes greatly. and one of the more troubling things in the actual recent news content is that CBP is claiming they have actually done the paperwork to transfer kids but ORR facilities and cooperatives are full; imo that's at least as much of a Biden-admin failure as the CBP camps themselves ICE/CBP Nazis mistreating kids because they're Nazis is one thing, not being able to move kids to better conditions is another
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Mar 31, 2021 05:48
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Fritz the Horse posted:imo the important distinction is: it’s clearly one since we have always had the option of not detaining and letting them continue to wherever they were planning to go to. If one is so desperate to properly catalogue them for later processing write down their names, take a photo, and ask for contact information so that their immigration case information can be sent to them. Hell give them a bus ticket too
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Mar 31, 2021 05:52
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Also that at least one domestic government agency is actively rogue and refusing orders to stop committing atrocities. At what point do we start seeing ICE staff detained and prosecuted?
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Mar 31, 2021 05:55
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Majorian posted:Appeals to authority via dictionaries are not acceptable answers in this discussion. With all due respect, you asked me why I thought they aren't concentration camps, I provided a citation in the form of an encyclopedic resource that explains very clearly and relatively concisely the actual distinction between a concentration camp and other types of camps such as refugee centers. Posting a definition of a term is not an "appeal to authority." Terms don't suddenly change their meaning based on people's opinions. I'm gonna turn this back on you, and politely suggest that if anyone else wants to engage in this debate, maybe they should provide counter-citations and we can discuss those. That is, after all, what this subforum has traditionally been about.
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Mar 31, 2021 05:56
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Raskolnikov38 posted:it’s clearly one since we have always had the option of not detaining and letting them continue to wherever they were planning to go to. If one is so desperate to properly catalogue them for later processing write down their names, take a photo, and ask for contact information so that their immigration case information can be sent to them. This seems like a fundamental misunderstanding in the motivation and resources of the people we are concerned about. While some number of them might have a specific place or person they are headed to, the reason they are refugees is because they are fleeing something, not because they are running towards something. Buying them a bus ticket and nothing else is peak cruelty - it's literally what some lovely states do to get rid of homeless people by making them someone else's problem Edit: that's not even getting into the fact that there were children under 10 in the Donna facility, christ those kids should be on school buses, not Greyhounds BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 05:57
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Also that at least one domestic government agency is actively rogue and refusing orders to stop committing atrocities. At what point do we start seeing ICE staff detained and prosecuted? Yesterday, ideally. Which is another matter that I think most everybody here agrees on.
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Mar 31, 2021 05:58
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or this argument could stop happening and we could just let people use detainment, concentration, and/or holding as a prefix to the word camps as they personally see fit
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Mar 31, 2021 05:59
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:With all due respect, you asked me why I thought they aren't concentration camps, I provided a citation in the form of an encyclopedic resource that explains very clearly and relatively concisely the actual distinction between a concentration camp and other types of camps such as refugee centers. Posting a definition of a term is not an "appeal to authority." Terms don't suddenly change their meaning based on people's opinions. The definition of a "concentration camp" is not as universally agreed-upon as the definition of, say, a table or a bike. A much better response would be one in which you explain why you think these camps do not meet the conditions of your definition of a concentration camp. How are people not being loaded into these camps on a largely ethnic or meta-ethnic basis? Do you feel they are receiving fair indictments or trials? At what point, in your opinion, do they stop being facilities for temporary detainment, and start being permanent facilities for permanent internment?
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Mar 31, 2021 06:01
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Raskolnikov38 posted:or this argument could stop happening and we could just let people use detainment, concentration, and/or holding as a prefix to the word camps as they personally see fit "Concentration camp" is specifically designed to evoke a particular, enraging emotional response that none of the other terms do. Randomly tossing it into an otherwise normal post is a good way to make people angrier at a very low cost (generally, to match the poster's own anger), and if nobody is allowed to rebut it then the cost is even lower. If you don't want people to rebut the terminology, use another term.
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Mar 31, 2021 06:04
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Raskolnikov38 posted:or this argument could stop happening and we could just let people use detainment, concentration, and/or holding as a prefix to the word camps as they personally see fit I've had family members perish in actual concentration camps, so no, I'm strongly against having people use any term they want to describe the refugee centers at the US border. Because what ends up happening then is that people use the strongest term possible for the purposes of evoking the strongest possible reaction in their ideological opponents, and scoring the largest amount of points with their ideological allies. GreyjoyBastard posted:"Concentration camp" is specifically designed to evoke a particular, enraging emotional response that none of the other terms do. Randomly tossing it into an otherwise normal post is a good way to make people angrier at a very low cost, and if nobody is allowed to rebut it then the cost is even lower. Said it better than I could. Thanks! 
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Mar 31, 2021 06:08
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GreyjoyBastard posted:"Concentration camp" is specifically designed to evoke a particular, enraging emotional response that none of the other terms do. Randomly tossing it into an otherwise normal post is a good way to make people angrier at a very low cost (generally, to match the poster's own anger), and if nobody is allowed to rebut it then the cost is even lower. Have another look at those pictures, you should be angry
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Mar 31, 2021 06:08
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GreyjoyBastard posted:"Concentration camp" is specifically designed to evoke a particular, enraging emotional response that none of the other terms do. Randomly tossing it into an otherwise normal post is a good way to make people angrier at a very low cost (generally, to match the poster's own anger), and if nobody is allowed to rebut it then the cost is even lower. this is a sincere question - given that we were instructed to "push biden left" as part of the compromise of him being the nominee, shouldn't we be just as angry and forceful with him as we would be under trump yes, it is incendiary to use the term. but if we're serious about pushing him left, shouldnt we be incendiary?
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Mar 31, 2021 06:09
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paranoid randroid posted:this is a sincere question - given that we were instructed to "push biden left" as part of the compromise of him being the nominee, shouldn't we be just as angry and forceful with him as we would be under trump forget it jake, it’s Chinatown (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 31, 2021 06:10
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Majorian posted:The definition of a "concentration camp" is not as universally agreed-upon as the definition of, say, a table or a bike. A much better response would be one in which you explain why you think these camps do not meet the conditions of your definition of a concentration camp. How are people not being loaded into these camps on a largely ethnic or meta-ethnic basis? Do you feel they are receiving fair indictments or trials? At what point, in your opinion, do they stop being facilities for temporary detainment, and start being permanent facilities for permanent internment? The people were on the Mexico side two months ago and could have just...not come in. They weren't rounded up, they came across the border to apply for refugee status using the international refugee agreement that the US is party to. If you want to call them something other than refugee camps, the onus is on YOU to describe something about the conditions or duration that is non-standard as compared to, for example, Syrian refugee camps. paranoid randroid posted:this is a sincere question - given that we were instructed to "push biden left" as part of the compromise of him being the nominee, shouldn't we be just as angry and forceful with him as we would be under trump You can call them anything you want when you call or send a letter to Joe Biden or any other government official, but no one here is in a position to do anything about the conditions and it does nothing to "push Biden left". BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Mar 31, 2021 |
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Mar 31, 2021 06:12
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paranoid randroid posted:this is a sincere question - given that we were instructed to "push biden left" as part of the compromise of him being the nominee, shouldn't we be just as angry and forceful with him as we would be under trump Using the term "concentration camp" does not push Joe Biden left, because Joe Biden does not read these forums. Everyone who actually does is very angry, and in one hundred percent agreement with you that the conditions the refugees are subject to are deplorable and unacceptable.
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Mar 31, 2021 06:15
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Homora Gaykemi posted:Have another look at those pictures, you should be angry paranoid randroid posted:this is a sincere question - given that we were instructed to "push biden left" as part of the compromise of him being the nominee, shouldn't we be just as angry and forceful with him as we would be under trump Within the bounds of the debate and discussion subforum, anger is not an adequate substitute for supported arguments. There is another politics subforum where angryposting as praxis is encouraged. CBP and ICE being full of Nazis, and the Biden administration's failures to date to make the intake process not-horrible, are worth getting angry about. There is no need to use incorrect terminology to make people angrier. I should note that I am not saying, MODHAT ON, that calling them concentration camps is illegal. I am saying MODHAT OFF that I disagree with it. I am, however, saying MODHAT ON that disagreeing with the 'concentration camps' terminology is legal, and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Using an incendiary and arguable term and then objecting to the existence of counterarguments is unacceptable in this case.
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Mar 31, 2021 06:17
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Homora Gaykemi posted:Have another look at those pictures, you should be angry Yes! I'm angry. Getting angry on the Something Awful Forums accomplishes exactly nothing, however. The discussion imo should be less about terminology and more about what can and should happen to address the situation in the real world where these loving abhorrent conditions actually exist. We're arguing dumb hypotheticals and encyclopedia definitions of "concentration camps." The gently caress purpose does that serve other than for us all to  ?I know this is getting heated (and it should be!) but I'm interested in discussing possible solutions, not getting Mad, Red, and Nude Online.
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Mar 31, 2021 06:20
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Nobody seems to have a problem calling ICE and CBP a bunch of Nazis, so I don't understand why calling the camps they run concentration camps is a bridge too far or is drawing inappropriate historical parallels, especially when "Nazi" has a pretty narrow historical meaning while concentrations camps existed both before and after WWII.
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Mar 31, 2021 06:24
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Lester Shy posted:Nobody seems to have a problem calling ICE and CBP a bunch of Nazis, so I don't understand why calling the camps they run concentration camps is a bridge too far or is drawing inappropriate historical parallels, especially when "Nazi" has a pretty narrow historical meaning while concentrations camps existed both before and after WWII. Personally my issue is that when Biden was trying to get more ORR facilities running to get them out of the hands of ICE and CBP people were also calling those concentration camps, it feels by just using blanket terminology they try to shut down all discussion.
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Mar 31, 2021 06:27
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Within the bounds of the debate and discussion subforum, anger is not an adequate substitute for supported arguments. if the material facts of the matter are that the situation is largely unchanged from when we ought to call the camps by one particular term over another, why should we not be furious and demanding the administration act decisively to end a practice that i think everyone can agree is unacceptable? im sorry i simply dont understand why naming these things as one kind of camp as opposed to another is a worthwhile exercise. a once-in-a-generation disease is ripping through them and theyre run by sadists that would cheerfully see everyone within die.
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Mar 31, 2021 06:43
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the camps represent a complete and utter failure that the biden administration had a solid year to walk into. they knew the infrastructure was rotten, they knew the enforcers were all nationalist psychopaths, and now that they're completely failing at their job, with the exercise of the most powerful executive branch in the history of the world, we're supposed to accept "doing things is hard" as an excuse?" i hope i can be excused for not buying it
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Mar 31, 2021 06:51
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BougieBitch posted:The question isn't actually "why are they not concentration camps?", the question is "why are these not refugee camps?" There isn't a question of if they are refugee camps. Obviously, they are. It should not be a controversial point that the set of all refugee camps and the set of all concentration camps are not disjoint sets. Also, since cherry picked dictionary citations are apparently relevant to this conversation, here's one: American Heritage Dictionary posted:concentration camp
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Mar 31, 2021 06:52
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Lester Shy posted:Nobody seems to have a problem calling ICE and CBP a bunch of Nazis, so I don't understand why calling the camps they run concentration camps is a bridge too far or is drawing inappropriate historical parallels Nazis killed millions of people in gas chambers and cremated their bodies in ovens that were specifically designed for that purpose, and spent a lot of time and energy making that funnel as efficient as possible so that they could kill more people faster. That is why the parallels to the US refugee camps are utterly inappropriate. paranoid randroid posted:if the material facts of the matter are that the situation is largely unchanged from when we ought to call the camps by one particular term over another, why should we not be furious and demanding the administration act decisively to end a practice that i think everyone can agree is unacceptable? im sorry i simply dont understand why naming these things as one kind of camp as opposed to another is a worthwhile exercise. The difference is that when a refugee dies in US custody it is a huge loving deal.
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Mar 31, 2021 06:53
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paranoid randroid posted:if the material facts of the matter are that the situation is largely unchanged from when we ought to call the camps by one particular term over another, why should we not be furious and demanding the administration act decisively to end a practice that i think everyone can agree is unacceptable? im sorry i simply dont understand why naming these things as one kind of camp as opposed to another is a worthwhile exercise. Who isn't furious and demanding they change things? Why does disagreeing with you on a term mean we can't be angry? There is this running current of "if you don't say concentration camp it means you don't think the camps should get better" which doesn't make any sense. If it's not a worthwhile exercise and we should be talking changes instead why is every single post of yours in this thread about the terminology?
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Mar 31, 2021 06:57
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Nazis killed millions of people in gas chambers and cremated their bodies in ovens that were specifically designed for that purpose, and spent a lot of time and energy making that funnel as efficient as possible so that they could kill more people faster. why should we not be furious with rage that our systems empower this?? why shouldnt we call every racist exclusionary system held over for what it is?? why should we give a sing iota of credit to the monsters and sickos that determine who gets to be an american and who doesnt?
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Mar 31, 2021 06:59
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edit is not quote
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Mar 31, 2021 07:00
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paranoid randroid posted:why should we not be furious with rage that our systems empower this?? What about his post says he isn't furious? Are we only furious if we use your exact words?
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Mar 31, 2021 07:01
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paranoid randroid posted:why should we not be furious with rage that our systems empower this?? Who isn't angry as gently caress? How does "don't use a term that likens the US refugee centers to Nazi camps" equivalent to "everything is fine and dandy, I'm gonna go get bunch with my fellow liberals now"?
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Mar 31, 2021 07:04
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socialsecurity posted:What about his post says he isn't furious? Are we only furious if we use your exact words? why arent you forcing biden left. we have to be as mad as we were when that Sex Pest Austerity Freak Segregationist got the nom, so let me see you war face
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Mar 31, 2021 07:05
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you cant stop getting mad just cause your guy got elected, cmon
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Mar 31, 2021 07:06
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paranoid randroid posted:why arent you forcing biden left. we have to be as mad as we were when that Sex Pest Austerity Freak Segregationist got the nom, so let me see you war face How does rageposting on a dying forum push Biden left?
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Mar 31, 2021 07:06
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