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Shut the gently caress up about America.
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Apr 2, 2021 03:19
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Slavvy posted:Lmao what the gently caress are you even talking about you walking case of dunning-kruger syndrome. What the gently caress are you talking about? You literally have no point right now. The discussion moved to whether or not a state needed to be authoritarian to handle a quarantine. I was speculating that the state would need to at the very least act like an authoritarian state. Obviously I don’t think that because New Zealand wanted to do the right thing and protect people through mask mandates and a lockdown that it suddenly turned into the “new New Zealand directive”. Are you seriously that dense? For the record I was in a state that only made people work from home and wear masks. There was never a time couldn’t do pretty much anything I wanted. I never knew anyone irl that got sick, or anyone that knew anyone who got sick. That’s just to say how well my state did vs others. I think the west coast was the most ridiculous with their restrictions. fart simpson posted:the united states imprisons more people than any other country in the world, by far. i don’t think the american government actually has a problem with restricting people or telling them what to do Yea I don’t mean to imply that the US is super ultra free and everything there is super great and the best of all time. But I think that problem is more related to private prisons and drug laws.
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Apr 2, 2021 03:22
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well, what do you mean when you say authoritarian? how is the us less authoritarian than other countries mentioned that handled covid better? if it’s just about willingness to tell people what to do or restrict people from doing certain things, i don’t know how you can separate that from the absolutely huge mass of people that are incarcerated or on parole, etc
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Apr 2, 2021 03:35
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Not to mention dead of COVID.
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Apr 2, 2021 03:39
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fart simpson posted:well, what do you mean when you say authoritarian? how is the us less authoritarian than other countries mentioned that handled covid better? That wasn’t meant to be the intention of my post. I think I was saying in order for the US specifically to have done more/better they would have had to have been more strict at a federal level. Most of the lockdowns and mask mandates came from a state level. I actually don’t know of anything the federal government did that impacted my day to day other than some restrictions on travel. China by comparison, had a standardized training that leaked which looked like something out of a clover field movie. And supposedly they were drilling people into their homes. Again, I have no idea if the latter was true, since I know jack about China, hence why I went to the China thread. To be badgered by ignorant New Zealanders on the concept of authoritarianism.
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Apr 2, 2021 03:57
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i live in china and did for all of last year too. it was treated kind of like a wartime effort but for the most part people were willing to do it. is there anything specifically you want to know that someone who was actually here would be able to answer? like i heard of someone under quarantine having their door welded shut but i don’t think that was standard policy. this was more common, and actually a picture i took of my next door neighbor’s door last march:  the door opens outward into the hallway so if they left everyone would know since the paper seal would be broken. it says basically something like “this household is under medical isolation observation” with the start and end dates of the quarantine period and phone numbers for the building and neighborhood management offices Somebody fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 04:17
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fart simpson posted:i live in china and did for all of last year too. it was treated kind of like a wartime effort but for the most part people were willing to do it. is there anything specifically you want to know that someone who was actually here would be able to answer? Did you get a feel for what people thought of the CCP in general? Are people sympathetic to Hong Kong, or do they even give a poo poo? I guess my real question is how much of my perception of china’s gov is bs, most media sources would have you believe China is legitimately exterminating a population of people, oppressing a resisting Hong Kong, and completely shuts down any discussions by covering up/disappearing people who are critical of the governments behavior.
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Apr 2, 2021 04:30
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fart simpson posted:well, what do you mean when you say authoritarian? how is the us less authoritarian than other countries mentioned that handled covid better? Which countries?
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Apr 2, 2021 04:42
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Still living in China and have been for the past 13 years so figured I'd offer my persepctiveSnoochtotheNooch posted:Did you get a feel for what people thought of the CCP in general? In general? Some love them, some deeply distrust them. Overall, sentiment has shifted towards the positive since Xi took over, especially amongst the young (the current curriculum seems to be succeeding in breeding knee-jerk pro-government sentiment). The general consensus has also been that the government handled the pandemic very well. SnoochtotheNooch posted:Are people sympathetic to Hong Kong, or do they even give a poo poo? Don't give a poo poo, pretty much universally. Most common sentiment I've heard is "they're just jealous because they're now eclipsed by mainland cities" SnoochtotheNooch posted:I guess my real question is how much of my perception of china’s gov is bs, most media sources would have you believe China is legitimately exterminating a population of people, oppressing a resisting Hong Kong, and completely shuts down any discussions by covering up/disappearing people who are critical of the governments behavior. Some of that's true. For the first one, I know people who come from Xinjiang and, yeah, it's really bad there. People in the rest of the country either don't believe, don't care, or think they had it coming. Can't speak to Hong Kong, others here may know more there. For the last, nah. Not usually. See ronya's post for a good breakdown of how it works out. Don't get me wrong, there's a stifling of thought and speech here, and it's worse than in western countries no doubt (people complaining about "political correctness" in western universities have no idea how much better they have it), but we're not talking North Korean levels here. You could sit in a restaurant and bitch about the government as much as you like, you just can't shout on the street about it or lecture about it in class. But even if you do lecture about it in class, you're not going to be disappeared, just told not to do it. If you continue you'll be fired. Unless you're particularly famous then, yeah, you might get "re-educated". On another note: some of y'all really need to chill with the insults.
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Apr 2, 2021 04:47
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I know that I've heard stories about China behaving badly and trying to cover things up at the beginning of the pandemic, and that would deserve some kind of admonishment, if it weren't for the fact that there was such garbage response by the rest of the world after word got out that it's hard to really think how much difference there'd be.
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Apr 2, 2021 04:54
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SlothfulCobra posted:I know that I've heard stories about China behaving badly and trying to cover things up at the beginning of the pandemic, and that would deserve some kind of admonishment, if it weren't for the fact that there was such garbage response by the rest of the world after word got out that it's hard to really think how much difference there'd be. Yeah, I was always fascinated by people that trotted out the Trump administration's line of "it's all China's fault because they covered up the initial spread". I mean, yeah, sure they did, but the severity was well established by the time it reached the US/UK and the initial response was still disastrous. It's like if someone accidentally starts a fire, tries to hide it, then eventually tells you there's a fire and you respond by turning up the volume on the TV: it's your own drat fool fault you burned to death.
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Apr 2, 2021 05:19
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Daduzi posted:Still living in China and have been for the past 13 years so figured I'd offer my persepctive yes basically i think this is what i see from chinese people to
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Apr 2, 2021 05:25
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:It's hard to be unpopular when you control the propaganda machine, genius. I'm sure it's the media that makes the average Chinese person like the CPC, not the fact that their parents and grandparents lived in unbelievable poverty and they live in a life of material security that wasn't thinkable even during their childhood. If only they didn't read People's World, they wouldn't know to like the organization that literally built their entire village new homes last year.
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Apr 2, 2021 05:35
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Daduzi posted:Yeah, I was always fascinated by people that trotted out the Trump administration's line of "it's all China's fault because they covered up the initial spread". To be fair, the WHO was also being excessively deferential to the Chinese government and wouldn't treat it as an outbreak of international concern that warranted activating pandemic procedures until its spread was already well underway in North America and Europe. There is validity to the argument that if the Chinese government hadn't spent the critical first few weeks of the outbreak covering it up and lying to the world about it, then it probably would have been much, much better contained than it ended up being. But alas, it's a counterfactual.
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Apr 2, 2021 05:37
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it is chinas fault that America deliberately became the unparalleled world leader in coronavirus infections ensuring all of the rest of us will be dragged down by the pandemic for years to come
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Apr 2, 2021 05:50
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Mantis42 posted:I'm sure it's the media that makes the average Chinese person like the CPC, not the fact that their parents and grandparents lived in unbelievable poverty and they live in a life of material security that wasn't thinkable even during their childhood. If only they didn't read People's World, they wouldn't know to like the organization that literally built their entire village new homes last year. Honestly, I don't really think so I don't know too many people who really know all that much or give a poo poo about that. Like people know it in a vague sense, but it's like the history version of 'eat your vegetables there's starving kids out there.' I don't really even know too many old people who like to talk about it. But the media and the political education? poo poo that has big, big influence on what younger people think and say about their country. That and when old people do talk about it it's usually not a perspective that lines up with the one you get in political education classes or from the media, and I hear the latter a lot more from younger people than the former. 'I had to eat bird poo poo during both Henan famines' doesn't make for a good CCTV story. BrainDance fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 06:08
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I'd say that argument is actually pretty equivalent to claiming that boomers in the US tend to be more right wing nationalistic because they remember tales of their parents/grandparents starving in the great depression and associate America's rose in global importance as the source of their material betterment. They've had their brains poisoned by an environment of cold war propaganda and inherent selfishness fits much better as an explanation though. Xi and the party offer a sense of stability and a promise of improved material conditions. People are brought to with the message that they will have a job and get to raise a family thanks to the governance of the CCP and they've got a uniquely wonderful system of government. When the CCP was launching the China dream, that's what they wanted to inculcate in the populace. Also China hosed around with the initial response, the WHO was really way too afraid of calling them out (which is an example of how China's over sensitivity to criticism is just massively toxic for international organisations, not that they're alone in this - the Pan American Health Organisation discourages the use of the term democratisation of medicine to avoid offending some Latin American governments *cough*Bolsonaro*cough*) but they don't bear responsibility for the massive gently caress up of a response in the US. They should be held to account for the initial cover up, not as some punishment but as a general lesson learnt about the cost of such actions. Likewise I'd really like to understand why it seems Europe and the US were almost uniquely bad in terms of outcomes and deaths (ignoring outliers like Brazil who seemed to actively resist taking actions).
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Apr 2, 2021 09:07
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This is anecdotal, but I’ve been in China for almost 15 years and talked to a bunch of different people. My personal sense is there’s actually a difference between support for the CCP and support for Xi Jinping or nationalistic pride in the government itself. Xi’s support is extremely high, but the party is a much more complex topic that reminds people of much less popular leaders and policies. Overwhelmingly the popular message is not socialist class struggle, but the great rejuvenation of the nation (中华民族伟大复兴, so nation means ethnicity, or people, not country.）Older people are much more likely to be tepid in support of the government, especially if called by name as the CCP, because they associate it with things like famine, corruption, the cultural revolution or forced late-term abortions. Young people might be more supportive, but more because they associate the term “socialism” itself with the current ethno-nationalist message than anything to do with Marxism. Regarding Hong Kong, most people see anyone related to the protests as a rare minority of violent extremists paid by foreign countries. They don’t see the protests as a struggle for rights, but as a separatist movement planted by foreign governments with the intent to weaken China.
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Apr 2, 2021 10:27
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"ah, I haven't read how china is doing in D&D in a while, looking forward to some interesting news about how china is doing"fart simpson posted:the united states imprisons more people than any other country in the world, by far. i don’t think the american government actually has a problem with restricting people or telling them what to do wow, everyone obsessively talking about the usa in the China D&D thread, who could have ever guessed (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 2, 2021 18:23
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:It's hard to be unpopular when you control the propaganda machine, genius. Yes, as I said they are very popular
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Apr 2, 2021 19:46
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Mantis42 posted:I'm sure it's the media that makes the average Chinese person like the CPC, not the fact that their parents and grandparents lived in unbelievable poverty and they live in a life of material security that wasn't thinkable even during their childhood. If only they didn't read People's World, they wouldn't know to like the organization that literally built their entire village new homes last year. This could've been recycled word for word from a pro-Soviet propaganda piece in the 1930s. And frankly, the notion that the party gives even a fraction of a poo poo about rural China is laughable in the extreme.
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Apr 2, 2021 19:56
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:This could've been recycled word for word from a pro-Soviet propaganda piece in the 1930s. And it would have been just as true. Like, seriously, I really don't think people have any clue how poo poo it was to live as a Russian or Chinese peasant pre-revolution, or how much of an improvement the communists made for the vast vast majority of people, regardless of any subsequent violence and corruption.
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Apr 2, 2021 20:18
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ThomasPaine posted:And it would have been just as true. Like, seriously, I really don't think people have any clue how poo poo it was to live as a Russian or Chinese peasant pre-revolution, or how much of an improvement the communists made for the vast vast majority of people, regardless of any subsequent violence and corruption. It wasn't great to live as the rural poor ("peasants", so to speak) in the USA in those eras either. We pulled millions out of poverty in the same timeframe.
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Apr 2, 2021 20:22
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How are u posted:It wasn't great to live as the rural poor ("peasants", so to speak) in the USA in those eras either. We pulled millions out of poverty in the same timeframe. And the US has been trading on that economic miracle (land of opportunity etc) ever since, even as reality has diverged. Bringing material benefit to people does indeed drive a big base level of goodwill, elsewhere as well as the US. It should also be said that "in those eras" is 50 to 100 years before in the US. In any case, you can trade that huge change in material circumstances into a lot of goodwill. Then, since we're pretty tribal critters and nationalism is a things, increased power on the world stage is also something which does a lot to shore up support. Munin fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 21:14
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How are u posted:It wasn't great to live as the rural poor ("peasants", so to speak) in the USA in those eras either. We pulled millions out of poverty in the same timeframe. you should read fanshen
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Apr 2, 2021 22:40
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:This could've been recycled word for word from a pro-Soviet propaganda piece in the 1930s. you get that people don't give a poo poo if the government genuinely 'gives even a fraction of a poo poo about them' but instead just likes when the government has massive programs dedicated to, ya know, building them actual suitable housing for the first time in their entire family's existence, right? Like, they don't care how much Xi genuinely likes them, it's that his government has been pulling entire regions out of pre-industrial level poverty. No poo poo that it's political relations more than genuine empathy, but the houses still get fuckin built my dude.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:47
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Many things can be said about the revolutions in Russia and China but none of the readings I've ever done have said "it got better to be a peasant." It might have been a hairsbreadth less terrible in a few aspects, maybe. But not better.
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Apr 2, 2021 23:02
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Many things can be said about the revolutions in Russia and China but none of the readings I've ever done have said "it got better to be a peasant." you, also, should read fanshen
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Apr 2, 2021 23:04
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fart simpson posted:you, also, should read fanshen Could you maybe include a sentence or two describing what "fanshen" is and why we should read it?
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Apr 2, 2021 23:06
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How are u posted:Could you maybe include a sentence or two describing what "fanshen" is and why we should read it? it's literally a book documenting the land reform of the revolution using the perspective of the actual farmers and workers of the land. It's a good read and I'd even say at times the writer lets some biases against the system shine through (he's prone to lumping in landlords with 'well off peasants' in talks about perhaps over-corrections in attitudes people had, ignoring that landlords were much more parasitic than just some guy with a big farm) but it's a good book for actual historic perspective
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Apr 2, 2021 23:09
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How are u posted:Could you maybe include a sentence or two describing what "fanshen" is and why we should read it? it’s a book written by a white american english teacher who was living in rural shaanxi province in the late 1940s. he spent a lot of time observing and interviewing and documenting villagers in a local farming village during the land reform revolution in 1948 to 1950 to talk about their lives before, during, and immediately after the revolution and the process through which land reform was realized for them he went back in the late 70s to the same village and wrote a follow up called shenfan it’s also available as a free pdf if you search for it
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Apr 2, 2021 23:13
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Thank you, that does sound interesting.
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Apr 2, 2021 23:39
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Many things can be said about the revolutions in Russia and China but none of the readings I've ever done have said "it got better to be a peasant." Are you loving insane
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Apr 3, 2021 00:21
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Many things can be said about the revolutions in Russia and China but none of the readings I've ever done have said "it got better to be a peasant." this is complete horseshit and you know it
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Apr 3, 2021 01:11
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You know what completely hosed life expectancy and poo poo for normal people in Russia? The USSR's collapse! I'm sure western powers trying to force political change in China would end well though.
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Apr 3, 2021 01:56
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ThomasPaine posted:Are you loving insane Collectivization....good? I mean, obviously I've never been forced to condemn my neighbor to punitive labor because they owned one more pig than I did, and were therefore in fact secretly capitalists. So what do I know. Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Apr 3, 2021 |
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Apr 3, 2021 02:53
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Collectivization....good? you know we just have, ya know, numbers and statistics right, as well as first hand accounts? You don't need these fake things
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Apr 3, 2021 03:02
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:And frankly, the notion that the party gives even a fraction of a poo poo about rural China is laughable in the extreme. I hate the political situation here, but I do think Xi Jinping is a true believer in his brand of right wing populism and legitimately believes what he’s doing is best for China and probably does really care about lifting rural people out of poverty. Unlike US republicans, the government hasn’t been poisoned by late stage capitalism and insane anti scientific dogma, so they rightfully recognize that developing poor rural areas benefits the whole country. One reason Xi is so popular is that he’s sincere in doing that.
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Apr 3, 2021 04:12
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I think it'd be pretty hard not to see some kind of improvement after decades of war finally faded.Heithinn Grasida posted:I hate the political situation here, but I do think Xi Jinping is a true believer in his brand of right wing populism and legitimately believes what he’s doing is best for China and probably does really care about lifting rural people out of poverty. Unlike US republicans, the government hasn’t been poisoned by late stage capitalism and insane anti scientific dogma, so they rightfully recognize that developing poor rural areas benefits the whole country. One reason Xi is so popular is that he’s sincere in doing that. I can believe he's sincere, it just also seems that he's also sincere about trying to stamp down on multiculturalism and all possible forms of dissent, so there's a limit to the benefits of his egalitarianism towards his subjects. SlothfulCobra fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Apr 3, 2021 |
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Apr 3, 2021 04:14
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I hate the political situation here, but I do think Xi Jinping is a true believer in his brand of right wing populism and legitimately believes what he’s doing is best for China and probably does really care about lifting rural people out of poverty. Unlike US republicans, the government hasn’t been poisoned by late stage capitalism and insane anti scientific dogma, so they rightfully recognize that developing poor rural areas benefits the whole country. One reason Xi is so popular is that he’s sincere in doing that. i lol'd
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Apr 3, 2021 05:01
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