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Ferrinus posted:I've actually found this conversation really helpful to my own thinking, particularly your comment about certain fan conceptions of The Thing. I'm realizing that Prometheus and Covenant are actually much closer to, and much more logical elaborations on, the original Alien movies rather than just being cool additions or expansions in their own right. That's fair, and I apologize.
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Apr 1, 2021 01:20
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Leavemywife posted:I do like some level of explanation about things, but I think that's just natural curiosity about things you enjoy, which isn't unusual. Like, sure, I want to know why Micheal wanted to murder his entire family, but I'm also content with it being " There’s a noteworthy chapter at the end of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual where a team of WY scientists review data from the first two movies to try and figure out the Alien’s capabilities using rational science - biology, chemistry, physics. As the chapter goes on they realize none of it makes “rational” sense, so they just start rolling with it.
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Apr 1, 2021 01:36
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I dunno" and that being the explanation.
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i think it just speaks to people enjoying horror and being fascinated in cool ideas. it's fun to think about these things! but the older i get the more i just enjoy sitting down and poring through a Giger artbook and letting the imagination run wild
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Apr 1, 2021 01:38
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BiggerBoat posted:Just about any movie that digs too deep into the origins of the unstoppable murder thing winds up robbing that mechanism of its scariness. Like, the more we know about Michael Myers, the less effective he becomes as a scary ominous force in the Halloween movies. One example. Digging into the origin of the Alien means considering the psychosexual libido/destrudo stuff about humans that fascinates us. You can even say that the original Alien movie did that. I think that the two Alien "prequel" movies "dug in" in an appropriate way. Conjuring demons and all that.
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Apr 1, 2021 06:45
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Indeed he does. Through a lot of the film actually. He's eerily mechanical and singularly focused as if programmed almost, even in his first scene as a child. Watch the last 10 or 15 minutes of that film and tell me he's not machine like in his singular stalking of Laurie. Or the cold, robotic way he gazes at the guy he impaled on the door. His lack of emotion. His indestructibility. Christ, he's practically the Terminator with how much punishment he takes and survives things that no human being could expect to (magnum bullets to the head, knitting needle in the neck, cloths hanger in the eye, the fall off the balcony). And knowing HOW and WHY he did that makes him less frightening, I imagine you're referring to the zany traps he sets and his theatricality in spots, in which case fair enough. I know we're not in the Halloween thread but I'm hardly the first person to compare him to a machine. I didn't think this was a controversial opinion to hold but nor did I think that "Alien isn't scary" was a common take either so to each their own.
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Apr 2, 2021 00:30
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There’s nothing “eerily mechanical” about perving on your sister and stabbing her to death. It’s very much premeditated, we just don’t know the motivation, which could be as simple as “I hate Mondays” but simple as it could be, it’s still a motivation based off of a very human emotion.
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Apr 2, 2021 01:11
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BiggerBoat posted:Indeed he does. Through a lot of the film actually. He's eerily mechanical and singularly focused as if programmed almost, even in his first scene as a child. Watch the last 10 or 15 minutes of that film and tell me he's not machine like in his singular stalking of Laurie. Or the cold, robotic way he gazes at the guy he impaled on the door. His lack of emotion. His indestructibility. Myers is more oddly whimsical - driving around town in this lovely car, breaking into a random hardware store and barely stealing anything, etc. "Mechanical" is like "force of nature" where the phrase is abused to mean just about anything. The alien, like a force of nature, spends most of its time napping in the ductwork.
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Apr 2, 2021 06:15
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Tbf what in nature doesn't love a good napCelticPredator posted:I’m glad you’re doing this for yourself at this point to understand poo poo better or whatever but this is not as interesting to read as you think it might be. No way, this is the most fun and interesting this thread has been to read in months, if not years! Ideally no one should take disagreements on The SpaceMonster movie series too personally, but whatcha gonna do? I still get triggered by peeps dissing my boys Fifield & Millburn, and that movie came out like a whole decade ago! lol they're not even important characters, why do I care so much McSpanky posted:As a peanut gallery spectator to this whole exchange, knock it off with this dumb poo poo. I admit I didn't read the entire conversation that their av links to, but even a cursory skim reveals that it's not really the "ownage" whoever bought it for them thinks it is. Although really Ferrinus, NOT being so hysterically paranoid that you're actively searching for betrayal everywhere, is a bit of a cspam faux pas, just fyi
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Apr 2, 2021 08:14
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ruddiger posted:There’s nothing “eerily mechanical” about perving on your sister and stabbing her to death. The slow way he crosses the street. The deliberate way he sits up in the bedroom. I'm talking about his movement and body language. Also, the sequel is a good example of how over explaining robs a lot of the fear element from things. Revealing Michael as Laurie's sister and whatever the druid "samhain" subplot was, for instance.
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Apr 2, 2021 11:50
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Idunno why people are picking on BiggerBoat's analogy. I agree that The Shape doesn't behave "mechanically." But like any character he is a storytelling device, and the magic curse exposition in Halloween 6 doesn't make him a better one. For that matter, neither does believing the characters who say that he's "pure evil." Michael is better characterized by the things he actually does than by stuff other characters say about him.
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Apr 2, 2021 17:14
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BiggerBoat posted:The slow way he crosses the street. The deliberate way he sits up in the bedroom. I'd characterize that as "casual." Like, what sort of machine are we talking about that crosses streets slowly? Shouldn't a machine be able to cross streets very quickly and precisely? As Jack points out, the characters refer to Michael as pure evil and whatnot, but the stuff he does it pretty banal. He gets clothes, eats food, etc. He stops some kids from bullying another. The character looks emotionless, of course, because he's wearing a rubber mask - but it's more specifically that his emotions are unreadable. And then: why is Michael seemingly desperate to keep his emotions unreadable? Looking at characters as characters is important. As Alien Covenant points out, the 'xenomorph' in Alien 1 is a specific character who is subtly different from the others - born into this space-ship, with no way of knowing what a space-ship even is. If these aliens need some kind of socialization to behave properly, he's certainly not getting it. The point here is not to empathize, of course, but to understand.
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Apr 2, 2021 17:54
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I don't have a bone in the Halloween fight but it's not "picking on people" to disagree with the words they have chosen to type - until Musk can unite our minds with microchips that's all we have to go on! It's unpleasant when I feel I'm being misunderstood (accidentally or purposefully), but sometimes that's on me for not being clear enough and sometimes that's on you for not being reading carefully enough - it's an unavoidable aspect of human communication, all you can do is relax or make an effort or a bit both
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Apr 2, 2021 17:57
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Edit: I don't think anyone is bullying BiggerBoat or anything, I was just surprised because I figured their basic point would be uncontroversial. Something that fascinates me about Michael in particular is that, like the Terminator, fans sometimes talk about him like he's a perfectly efficient killing machine when he's definitely not. The weird stuff he actually does prompts a lot of questions. Like, why does he stalk Laurie wearing a mask in broad daylight? Why does he always steal that exact mask and a boilersuit? Why does he kill dogs and leave them for their owners to find? Why did he eat part of a dog when he could have just stolen some Cheetos or whatever? Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 18:03
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Halloween Jack posted:Edit: I don't think anyone is bullying BiggerBoat or anything, I was just surprised because I figured their basic point would be uncontroversial. And a lot of people seem to have decided that’s because ghosts are like dogs, they just sort of do things arbitrarily
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Apr 2, 2021 21:00
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FWIW, I don't feel bullied. Sorry for the Halloween derail in the Alien thread.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:22
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BiggerBoat posted:FWIW, I don't feel bullied. Sorry for the Halloween derail in the Alien thread. It’s okay, Myers is unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:23
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Xenomrph posted:It’s okay, Myers is unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality. Heh, wonder how Laurie and Loomis would have handled a xenomorph then. Actually, if we want to segue back to the thread; we’ve had a bunch of crossovers in comics and the like with the xenos, any fictional characters or universes that haven’t done a crossover that would be interesting to see deal with them? Or deal with the Engineers/black goo, for that matter. If we want to keep on the Halloween track, other horror protagonists is a good starting point.
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Apr 3, 2021 16:44
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MadDogMike posted:Heh, wonder how Laurie and Loomis would have handled a xenomorph then. Actually, if we want to segue back to the thread; we’ve had a bunch of crossovers in comics and the like with the xenos, any fictional characters or universes that haven’t done a crossover that would be interesting to see deal with them? Or deal with the Engineers/black goo, for that matter. If we want to keep on the Halloween track, other horror protagonists is a good starting point. The Thing vs The Black Goo Edit: make it a three way; vs The Blob
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Apr 3, 2021 17:21
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david_a posted:The Thing vs The Black Goo Four Way with The Stuff. Oh and the...black floating goo from Creepshow 2/The Raft, so 5 way.
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Apr 3, 2021 18:18
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david_a posted:The Thing vs The Black Goo
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Apr 3, 2021 23:09
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Blob 88 owns incredibly hard
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Apr 4, 2021 00:08
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It's the only movie I can think of where they kill a kid. That was shocking the first time I saw it.
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Apr 4, 2021 00:16
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Leavemywife posted:It's the only movie I can think of where they kill a kid. That was shocking the first time I saw it. The writer is Frank Darabont. Outside of writing KOES3 and directing Shawshank and such he's known for directing The Mist. You may want to watch it.
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Apr 4, 2021 00:25
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Blob 88 has some great kills. The sink and the hospital scenes in particular! It's also stacked with character actors, including Bill Mosely briefly
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Apr 4, 2021 00:35
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Leavemywife posted:It's the only movie I can think of where they kill a kid. That was shocking the first time I saw it. They kill many kids in AvP-R and it sucks. That movie has it out for pregnant women too.
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Apr 4, 2021 00:47
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CelticPredator posted:They kill many kids in AvP-R and it sucks. That movie has it out for pregnant women too. Actually just the one at the start if I remember right. Didn’t a kid get killed in the original ‘Assault on Precinct 13’? And of course there’s ‘Twilight Zone: The Movie’ I’m going to hell for that one
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Apr 4, 2021 00:55
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alf_pogs posted:Blob 88 has some great kills. The sink and the hospital scenes in particular! I straight up yelled “hell yeah, motherfucker” at the phone booth sequence when, after being built up as a responsible ally figure a la blob 58, the sheriff’s partially digested corpse gets pressed against the glass.
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Apr 4, 2021 00:56
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think there's a few kid deaths in Mimic as well, as well as the big scene in Hereditary
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Apr 4, 2021 00:58
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Blob 88 is a bit too cutesy with the “bet you didn’t expect this character to die!” stuff. It gives the impression that the blob is self-aware about its status as a movie villain and is actively trying to subvert tropes. It’s a lot more interesting in AV|P:R, where the humans simply aren’t the protagonists.
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Apr 4, 2021 01:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Blob 88 is a bit too cutesy with the “bet you didn’t expect this character to die!” stuff. It gives the impression that the blob is self-aware about its status as a movie villain and is actively trying to subvert tropes. It predates the point where things like that happened in mainstream movies though. We knew it was self conscious from the in movie Friday the 13th movie, but outside of Sleepaway Camp 2 and kindaaaaa F13 6, movies just didn't really cross that boundary then. It predated Scream by a decade for what it was doing more subtly.
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Apr 4, 2021 01:15
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Leavemywife posted:It's the only movie I can think of where they kill a kid. That was shocking the first time I saw it. Alien 3? Not on screen, but it does and we get an autopsy. CelticPredator posted:They kill many kids in AvP-R and it sucks. That movie has it out for pregnant women too. I'm glad it has the balls to do so, but it doesn't make the movie any better.
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Apr 4, 2021 01:39
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sigher posted:Alien 3? Not on screen, but it does and we get an autopsy. That scene was really sloppy l, I can easily admit. But if the movie had been legible, it would have at least been a decent watch. It was literally the old AvP comics on screen, just swapping aesthetically for modern day which is also in the discussion for comic movies.
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Apr 4, 2021 01:43
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I love Blob 88 but the Platoon callback is a bit much.
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Apr 4, 2021 01:50
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sigher posted:I'm glad it has the balls to do so, but it doesn't make the movie any better. You'd think it would work more in the movie's favor adding the additional shock value of targeting them like that, remove the "we're used to what Aliens and Predators do" factor for the monsters, but for some reason it just felt too mean to me, kind of turned me off the film. Maybe I just expected a certain level of goofy given the inherent silliness of the concept of Aliens and Predator smacking together (the first movie certainly had that), about the only deaths I recall that hit that feel were the one kid who got a face full of acid when the Alien on top of him got shot, the two idiots the Predator blasted the heads off of, and the one girl getting nailed with the disk. Or maybe my issue is more what SMG noted about humans not being the protagonists, which left nobody to root for since both the Predator and Aliens were too vicious to support for me (though I'm kind of glad the movie ended with both losing to a human nuke). As for the Blob, not sure how the Aliens would fair against it (either they're both immune to each other because both use acid, or the Aliens are kind of screwed since don't know they can do much to the Blob). Blob vs. black goo could be very interesting though; what the heck does a hostile space amoeba get mutated into, and how would the Blob wind up channeling xenomorph traits?
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Apr 4, 2021 04:09
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Leavemywife posted:It's the only movie I can think of where they kill a kid. That was shocking the first time I saw it. There's two different cuts of the kid popping up too both of which are equally horrifying instead of one being less brutal in some way.
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Apr 4, 2021 04:14
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AvP-R doesn’t come off ballsy, it comes off as mean and boring. The pregnant thing isn’t even a thing aliens do. It was made up for that film which is fine I guess. But from the film and the interviews it makes it seem like they just really got a kick out of it. Even the commentary is like “lol at the end they all die later or whatever. Ricky dies of an infection lmao” It’s just like if you don’t care that much about the story you’re telling then why should I?
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Apr 4, 2021 06:08
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MadDogMike posted:Or maybe my issue is more what SMG noted about humans not being the protagonists, which left nobody to root for since both the Predator and Aliens were too vicious to support for me (though I'm kind of glad the movie ended with both losing to a human nuke). The dynamic is specifically that the godlike Predator is the protagonist, up until the point that some of the humans begin to surpass their inherent mediocrity and approach that level. AV|P:R is often disrespected by fans because it’s doing the Prometheus/Covenant thing of going against the logic of the franchise while exploring the more interesting parts of Scott’s film(s). As we were noting earlier, in conversation with Xenomrph: the alien is not a static thing. The being that pops out of Kane is made out of Kane. It is a reflection of not only his physiology (skull, hands, etc.) but also his psychology. So, what would an alien look like if it mixed genes with a different alien? Obviously it wouldn’t be just another humanoid thing. A xenomorphized tree would be shaped as a tree, etc. In AV|P:R, the xenomorphized Predator is specifically an evil Predator. It is a reflection of Predator psychology. So we’re getting into questions of how their minds work. What are their drives? How do they reproduce, and so-forth? The implication is that Predators don’t gently caress like humans, and probably more like fish or something. But, more importantly, the Predator is presented as a godlike being. If xenomorphs are demonic spirits, then the resulting mixture is this evil god who demands taboo sacrifices. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 13:18
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Point of order: as depicted in Covenant, the xenomorphs leave flora completely alone and just lie dormant in pristine wildernesses if there aren't any people (or, presumably, animals) around. VVV right, yeah VVV Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 16:53
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They state at some point in covenant that there’s no animals on the planet which is weird.
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Apr 4, 2021 16:55
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Because David killed them all with the goo bomb and experiments
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Apr 4, 2021 18:15
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