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Most HEMA manuals are for civilians - "this is how you use that shiny sword you carry around for self-defence" moreso than any military techniques. We see some later period military stuff get written down - British Napoleonic/Victorian Sabre, for examples, has manuals from military folk for the aspiring gentleman officer to teach himself/his troops how to sword. But if you're looking at 16th/17th German/Italian stuff, that's mostly the equivalent of a home defense manual. Also I bought a flintlock musket recently and was going to share pics, but the delivery company managed to snap the stock of it in transport so now I'm frantically getting some wood glue to try and repair some of the damage.
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Apr 1, 2021 21:22
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If the classical Greek phalanx typically held their spears overhand then the sarissa was even more of an innovation than otherwise. I think it's also worth noting that the grip of a hoplon (shield) was on the edge with an arm strap in the center, which presumably allowed plenty of space for the spear to the immediate right.
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Apr 1, 2021 21:38
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Also I bought a flintlock musket recently and was going to share pics, but the delivery company managed to snap the stock of it in transport so now I'm frantically getting some wood glue to try and repair some of the damage. FSFGGGSSHGHGFGHghj! Seriously!
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Apr 1, 2021 21:49
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SeanBeansShako posted:FSFGGGSSHGHGFGHghj! I know, right, it's a tragedy. The two pieces of wood are still connected by the metal base running along the bottom of the stock (forget the proper name) so it's not totally hopeless but it's not gonna be the same.
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Apr 1, 2021 21:56
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Tulip posted:Oh this question was a fairly large percentage of the book I just read. The answer is: The Iliad. https://www.amazon.com/War-Nerd-Iliad-John-Dolan/dp/1627310509
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Apr 1, 2021 22:16
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Remulak posted:By the way, the War Nerd translation of The Illiad is just about the greatest thing since bronze greaves. Nah. gently caress that guy.
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Apr 1, 2021 22:26
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I have no idea who that dude is but the excerpt I read is legitimately one of the worst pieces of writing I've ever read. I can only assume it's been translated in a manner to emulate the feeling of being told a story by your annoying six year old cousin while you desperately search for their parent so you can get them to take their attention from you. I feel sorry for anyone who experienced the Illiad that way.
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Apr 1, 2021 22:55
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Nah. gently caress that guy. Would you care to expound on why? Edit: aside from this work. I read a paragraph and it speaks for itself. Weka fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Apr 1, 2021 |
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Apr 1, 2021 23:48
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Weka posted:Would you care to expound on why? Aside from his work being demonstrably poo poo and his long association with fellow shithead Mark Ames, there's this little fact that sets my  off: "He is married to his former student... a New Zealander 24 years his junior. "
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Apr 1, 2021 23:54
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if you want to read an unconventional retelling of the Iliad just go with the unfinished War Music by Christopher Logue. It, what is it again the kids are saying, 'deadass slaps'
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Apr 2, 2021 01:34
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Biffmotron posted:overhand is taking a clip of Rambo hipfiring an M60 as an actual depiction of how to use a machine gun. Overhand strikes are weak, inaccurate, tiring, and open up your defenses. Couched is better in every single way. Absolutely not. First, historical military treatises, like Xenophon's Hipparchikos, multiple Renaissance fighting manuals and numerous period narrative sources like Jean de Joinville's Life of St Louis point to overhand thrusts, in addition to abundant period artwork. Although a lot of the artwork is done by rote, some of it is done by people that actually fight with these weapons . "I played around with it and didn't like it" is both a classic reenactor argument and a major reason you shouldn't trust reenactors. the JJ posted:Well, since horses won't actually charge well formed infantry, it's the tank destroyers. I mean maybe not in the classical period but there are absolutely times that they did. Didn't always end well, but it happened.
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Apr 2, 2021 02:50
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Also I bought a flintlock musket recently and was going to share pics, but the delivery company managed to snap the stock of it in transport so now I'm frantically getting some wood glue to try and repair some of the damage. A proper fix for this is going to involve more than wood glue if you want to shoot it. Might even be worth swinging by TFR for some guidance.
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Apr 2, 2021 02:59
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Nah. gently caress that guy. Vincent Van Goatse posted:Aside from his work being demonstrably poo poo and his long association with fellow shithead Mark Ames... Vincent Van Goatse posted:"He is married to his former student... a New Zealander 24 years his junior. " Hey - look over there! War Nerd Iliad is great because it’s presented as populist violent entertainment presented from the mindset of violent idiots. Re-reading Butler (which I beat to death as a undergrad) after this was a goddamn revelation.
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Apr 2, 2021 03:24
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It reads like poo poo though
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Apr 2, 2021 03:29
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It's basically the equivalent of Pride and Prejudice and Zombies and deserves as much respect and discussion (i.e. none at all).
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Apr 2, 2021 04:03
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University makes you a joyless void and convinces you this is the mark of a sophisticate. Trashy violent pulp is an appropriate and enjoyable medium for trashy violent characters.
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Apr 2, 2021 06:18
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Remulak posted:Jesus, when did this thread turn into YA Twitter? I am also aghast that he married a New Zealander Gaius Marius posted:It reads like poo poo though I don't like the excerpts either, from my recollection the trashy prose has a better flow when presented in whole chapters. The Victorian translations of the Iliad are imprinted with Victorian prudishness and British pedantry. While all translations suffer from the tastes of their translators, there is a wild contrast between a stuffy repressed bookworm like Samuel Butler, and a whooping slaving communally making GBS threads Ancient Greek. The War Nerd's whole lowbrow schtick is just a way of framing history in the violent undercurrent of mainstream American culture. Us modern apes experience a cheap thrill of watching Bruce Willis kick a terrorist through a window, it's worth considering that the apes of Ancient Greece might have felt the same way about Achilles skewering three guys with one spear.
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Apr 2, 2021 07:08
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Aside from his work being demonstrably poo poo and his long association with fellow shithead Mark Ames, there's this little fact that sets my I heard good things about his podcast or atleast it's willingness to deal with poorly covered topics so if you had any material criticism as regards his factual stuff I'd be interested to hear it. The other stuff is still worth mentioning don't get me wrong.
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Apr 2, 2021 07:21
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:
Twas a joke about previous recurring milhist thread debates (like overarm or underarm spear wielding, in fact)
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Apr 2, 2021 12:59
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I recognize as someone that did a lot of Iliad reading in the ancient past of undergrad that I'm extremely biased and certainly a traditionalist, and I've only read the Amazon excerpt, but if translating the text in to War Nerd Edge Lord Syntax is what you need to make you enjoy and understand the Iliad, why bother? It's not like I view these as sacred inviolable texts, just not convinced where the original thought is here. Something like McCann's work is original and interesting. Slim Jim Pickens posted:Us modern apes experience a cheap thrill of watching Bruce Willis kick a terrorist through a window, it's worth considering that the apes of Ancient Greece might have felt the same way about Achilles skewering three guys with one spear. I think the existing translations reflect this without needing to be translated in to Edge Lord. GotLag posted:Trashy violent pulp is an appropriate and enjoyable medium for trashy violent characters. It's already trashy violent pulp. It's get-hosed-up around the campfire and tell a cool story already. Just because the Victorians put on airs about it doesn't change the core of the work.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:04
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I would be interested in reading a retranslation tbh, or an annotated version where some bits that were smoothed out by the OG translator are pointed out.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:53
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Siivola posted:Couching also means the butt of the spear is somewhere between the dudes behind you, and you can’t tell if you're about to jab someone in the nads. Those guys!? They have primary period sources. Regards and qq, A viking reenactor    But no seriously, we have very little idea of how folks from a almost exclusively oral historian tradition fought, and experimental archeology is almost as good as the real deal to us. It really doesn't make any sense to make certain claims about how the vikings fought because how the gently caress would we know, really. E: I realize litterate cultures have fought the vikings and given some accounts, but I shouldn't have to tell anyone with historical training how little that is to go by.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:59
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aphid_licker posted:I would be interested in reading a retranslation tbh, or an annotated version where some bits that were smoothed out by the OG translator are pointed out. There are plenty of varied and good translations. The modern trend has been towards accessible stuff that is intended to be read out loud, so it makes a lot of use of the sound qualities of words. Here are a few options. Alexander is an extremely faithful reproduction of the text that includes a lot of notes, but it's quite accessible. This would meet your second requirement. Also the first translation by a woman, so that's quite interesting and cool. Lombardo did a modern vernacular translation that is supposedly very good, though I haven't read it. Phenomenal cover page on the paperback. Fagles is a perfectly good modern (1990) translation. Nice urgency, although not purely intended to be read out loud in the way some of the more modern ones are. https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/englishing-the-iliad-grading-four-rival-translations Here's a good little snippet on why this stuff matters and is interesting (to me!). The Dolan translation just kind of... steamrollers all this stuff and reduces it to a story, which to be fair is his intent. However, the line between "a story you tell around a campfire" "a play" and "a poem" was nonexistent in Homer's day so his attempt seems hamfisted and wrings a significant amount of the joy and experience out of the whole thing in my opinion. Also, as far as I can tell Logue did it better without loving up the non-narrative aspects.
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Apr 2, 2021 14:50
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Drachinifel on Admiral King. King kinda sounds like an archetype bad boss, except he could actually meet his own high standards and was very smart. Also lol MacArthur: he wanted to *directly* invade the Japanese Naval Base at Rabul, naturally with him leading the charge. King's response was to create an offensive that could get off the ground much more quickly to derail the notion, ending up with the Guadalcanal campaign.
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Apr 2, 2021 15:14
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:There are plenty of varied and good translations. The modern trend has been towards accessible stuff that is intended to be read out loud, so it makes a lot of use of the sound qualities of words. Here are a few options. Thank you!
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Apr 2, 2021 15:17
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Nebakenezzer posted:Drachinifel on Admiral King. King kinda sounds like an archetype bad boss, except he could actually meet his own high standards and was very smart. Also lol MacArthur: he wanted to *directly* invade the Japanese Naval Base at Rabul, naturally with him leading the charge. King's response was to create an offensive that could get off the ground much more quickly to derail the notion, ending up with the Guadalcanal campaign. Ian Toll's pacific war trilogy, which concluded last year, is pretty glowing of King. Hardheaded, but not so much that Nimitz couldn't talk him out of something when necessary. And he fought like hell for the resources to make Guadalcanal a success, despite Europe First.
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Apr 2, 2021 15:48
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king also partied super hard and was pretty slutty, so he contained multitudes
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Apr 2, 2021 15:56
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aphid_licker posted:Thank you! Fagles IMO is the go to if you aren't gonna read it out loud. It's very good and accessible. Comedy option is the OG Pope translation which is beautiful though deeply inaccessible to a modern audience.
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Apr 2, 2021 16:21
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Speaking of re-enactors, I've always wondered how, say, viking or hoplite re-enactors would fare against people who formed and faced real shieldwalls in recent protests, like Maidan had full fledged melee engagements complete with shieldwalls and catapults.
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Apr 2, 2021 16:46
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I feel like it's a very different combat experience when both sides are properly armed. Especially when they have some kind of sharp weapons to try poking around the shields. And then there's tear gas grenades that you've got to douse in water or toss back.
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Apr 2, 2021 17:03
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Lombardo did a modern vernacular translation that is supposedly very good, though I haven't read it. Phenomenal cover page on the paperback. I have this one, I really liked it. Very readable. I can't remember off-hand if there are lots of notes or annotations. He did The Odyssey too, which I also thought was quite good. I would recommend both.
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Apr 2, 2021 17:35
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As someone who reenacted and who may or may not have rioted, don't charge a shieldwall. Best case you're repulsed and may get targeted while you rel - Worst case they let you in and cripple you with clubs.
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Apr 2, 2021 17:35
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Could the central powers done anything after the capitulation of Russia in ww1 to change the outcome of the war?
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Apr 2, 2021 17:52
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Speaking of re-enactors, I've always wondered how, say, viking or hoplite re-enactors would fare against people who formed and faced real shieldwalls in recent protests, like Maidan had full fledged melee engagements complete with shieldwalls and catapults. In most fights between a bunch of melee combatants, itll just depend on who wants it more KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I recognize as someone that did a lot of Iliad reading in the ancient past of undergrad that I'm extremely biased and certainly a traditionalist, and I've only read the Amazon excerpt, but if translating the text in to War Nerd Edge Lord Syntax is what you need to make you enjoy and understand the Iliad, why bother? It's not like I view these as sacred inviolable texts, just not convinced where the original thought is here. Something like McCann's work is original and interesting. I only read part of the Iliad and it was some dusty translation that I was too young to understand it anyways. I appreciate the recommendation of Fagles translation, I might tackle the original material with it. I don't think that anybody should read the War Nerd Iliad as a replacement for it, it's just like the rest of Dolan's writing. He has a satirical and psychological bite to him that is good at reframing historical events and people in a distinctly American way. The faithful translations obviously don't do that.
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Apr 2, 2021 17:57
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Lawman 0 posted:Could the central powers done anything after the capitulation of Russia in ww1 to change the outcome of the war? Probably not. By that point America is in the war meaning the Western powers will have the manpower to grind Germany down sooner or later, the blockade is proving ruinous, the Ottomans are on the ropes, and Austria-Hungary has been barely keeping it together for two years. The big counterfactuals at that point are "could the Spring Offensive have worked?" and "could they have beaten the blockade by pulling more resources out of former Russian territory?" The consensus on both of those seems to be no. A negotiated end to the war is likewise implausible, the domestic political cost of not winning the war was so high that no major power could really consider it. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 18:04
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Even if the Spring offensive captured Paris I don’t think that ends the war and the exhausted Germans are probably thrown back in the inevitable Allied counter-attack. Germany itself then still collapses in revolution and faces the Allied 100 days offensive. It’s just all this happens in Spring 1919 instead of fall 1918. Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 18:15
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PittTheElder posted:A negotiated end to the war is likewise implausible, the domestic political cost of not winning the war was so high that no major power could really consider it. Well, there *was* a negotiated end to the war, though.
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Apr 2, 2021 18:17
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PittTheElder posted:Probably not. By that point America is in the war meaning the Western powers will have the manpower to grind Germany down sooner or later, the blockade is proving ruinous, the Ottomans are on the ropes, and Austria-Hungary has been barely keeping it together for two years. I mean I was looking at the Battle of Caporetto and going "I guess they could have knocked out Italy?" Edit: Honestly I remember reading stuff about the eastern occupation and it seemed like a general net drain on the central powers and it amazes me that they didn't learn anything from it. Lawman 0 fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 18:25
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America joining the war is the big "what if" for WW1. Without the guarantee of American manpower, lots of stuff changes.
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Apr 2, 2021 18:45
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It seems really difficult in general to quickly make a newly-occupied region productive. The nazis failed even in the "nicely" occupied countries. Like, the average frenchman didn't have any qualms with jews being deported or being second fiddle to fascist Germany instead of Perfidious Albion, but even so occupied France failed to deliver much contribution to the war effort. How much grain can you cart away from a wartorn newly-conquered Ukraine before the farmers decide they'd rather take their chances shooting back?
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Apr 2, 2021 18:57
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