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Lord_Magmar posted:I think this might actually be why the show came out after Wandavision, if they originally filmed with Black Panther/Chadwick Boseman and ended up reshooting every scene he was meant to be in that would along with COVID really slow their production down. I don't think they'd do Chadwick like that, deleting his last performance as the Black Panther.
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Apr 2, 2021 09:30
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Hahahah, this is like the end of John Wick 2 when everyones phones are going off putting the bounty on them Someone needs to gif Zemo dancing twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 09:32
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twistedmentat posted:Someone needs to gif Zemo dancing just got to this 
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Apr 2, 2021 09:38
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Yea I don't think we can say the Flagsmashers are good guys anymore.
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Apr 2, 2021 09:51
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Bust Rodd posted:I dunno, I feel like there’s a certain threshold for an anti-hero to very importantly not have crossed before they get off the ground. Loki had a multi-million dollar movie that was just him essentially recreating 9/11 but with alien dragons instead of planes, so it’s like advertising a new and exciting adventure series on Disney+ called Bin Laden. It's worse, it is Loki from ten minutes after The Avengers ends and he breaks out of lockup. So all of the evil deeds, none of the semi-decent ones from Ragnarok
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Apr 2, 2021 10:03
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So the Power Broker is probably Sharon, right?
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Apr 2, 2021 10:03
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text editor posted:So the Power Broker is probably Sharon, right? The thought crossed my mind. It also seems possible she's working with Wakanda. twistedmentat posted:Yea I don't think we can say the Flagsmashers are good guys anymore. I think its still mildly ambiguous. Like the first part of that episode was spent presenting the GRC as jack booted thugs. The bombing is obviously gonna be condemned but it was an episode where the heroes broke a terrorist out of prison and Sharon Carter mocked everything her aunt and Cap stood for so I dunno. It was a weird episode for people crossing lines and failing as good guys.
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Apr 2, 2021 10:09
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Its Rinaldo posted:"Only an American would think a fashion forward black man would look like a pimp." This and the discussion about Marvin Gaye's Trouble Man where Zemo says "It's a masterpiece James - complete, comprehensive; it captures the African American experience" followed by Sam's "Wa...he's out of line, but he's right - it's great."
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Apr 2, 2021 10:13
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Man, the pacing of this episode was real bad. I'm having trouble reconciling the new Zemo with how he was portrayed in Civil War. Disregarding his comic character (of which I know nothing), in Civil War he was just a vindictive Sokovian spy. Now it's like he's evil Bruce Wayne.
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Apr 2, 2021 10:18
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Was the bounty listed in Bitcoin?
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Apr 2, 2021 10:18
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404notfound posted:Was the bounty listed in Bitcoin? 1000BTC, which is around $50M in today's market. I can only imagine how valuable it has become in a world where the economic system almost entirely collapsed and a decentralized currency would be king
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Apr 2, 2021 10:21
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STAC Goat posted:I think its still mildly ambiguous. Like the first part of that episode was spent presenting the GRC as jack booted thugs. The bombing is obviously gonna be condemned but it was an episode where the heroes broke a terrorist out of prison and Sharon Carter mocked everything her aunt and Cap stood for so I dunno. It was a weird episode for people crossing lines and failing as good guys. I think the show is mostly shooting for morally grey with everyone after this episode, so it's not a shock that the Flagsmashers did something morally reprehensible while also showing them in the most sympathetic light they've had yet: playing with kids, mourning parental figures, reminiscing on why they're acting in the first place, their dreams before becoming the Flagsmashers etc. Plus, it's not like it was a general, agreed action; it seems like something Karli decided without everyone's approval or knowledge, and at least that one guy was unaware of what she planned. Someone presumably helped her set the car to be a bomb, though she may have gotten explosives and rigged them alone without anyone's knowledge I suppose. More likely, there's at least one or two other Smashers who are okay with murdering people as a means to their end. That said, with how much Sharon was undercutting the actions of heroes this episode, I suppose it's possible Bucky and Sam are going to come out of the show with stronger convictions after confronting the hypocrisy of their institutions and actions.
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Apr 2, 2021 11:28
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tsob posted:I think the show is mostly shooting for morally grey with everyone after this episode, so it's not a shock that the Flagsmashers did something morally reprehensible while also showing them in the most sympathetic light they've had yet: playing with kids, mourning parental figures, reminiscing on why they're acting in the first place, their dreams before becoming the Flagsmashers etc. Plus, it's not like it was a general, agreed action; it seems like something Karli decided without everyone's approval or knowledge, and at least that one guy was unaware of what she planned. Someone presumably helped her set the car to be a bomb, though she may have gotten explosives and rigged them alone without anyone's knowledge I suppose. More likely, there's at least one or two other Smashers who are okay with murdering people as a means to their end. Yeah, and Karli doing the bombing on her parallels Bucky breaking out Zemo without telling Sam. Sam's not innocent because he goes with it, but he also definitely wouldn't have agreed to the plan as Bucky says. So there's all kind of ambiguity of how much blame goes where. But yeah, the key line is probably "The world is upside down and needs Cap." The whole thing feels about people trying to be what they think the world needs. Walker, Sam, Bucky, Karli, even Zemo. In their minds they're all the good guy and they're all clearly failing in some way. Sam is probably gonna step up to be the Cap who tries to hold to where the line should be. How you can do what's right without busting in doors and threatening refugees or murdering a bunch of people you think are the problem. Sharon is kind of the wildcard because if you believe what she says she's given up on trying to be the good guy. But I'm not convinced that was on the up and up.
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Apr 2, 2021 11:39
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Yeah, it feels like she might have been putting up a front, either because Zemo is there and she knew that meant there was a potentially untrustworthy aly who'd use anything he could against her or because she's not sure whether to trust Sam and Bucky after several years. It seems possible she herself is a Wakandan asset in the centre of the Black Market that is Madripoor; though her being the Power Broker is definitely possible too.
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Apr 2, 2021 11:53
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Zemo in the club
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Apr 2, 2021 12:01
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It was very convenient that Sharon was at the bar Sam, Bucky and Zemo went to, with a sniper rifle, with a shot to take out Shelby if things went south, all at the same time that she had a fancy art selling party in High Town. There might be some holes in her story about being on the run since 2016. The "You Americans have become brutes" line (or whatever) seems to be the key here. For all the talk about how Marvel's been taking the military's money and glorifying them, this line seems to suggest that that's not exactly the case. That the US is overstepping seems to be intentional. It actually makes the line about Walker's mission in Chile more interesting, because Chile is a stable, US-friendly country in real life. Also, they wouldn't bust out T'Challa in the third episode. If anything, it's surprising that it wasn't Okoye but Ayo is probably the perfectly sized character for this. She was the one who accompanied T'Challa to the UN so maybe she specifically has a relationship with Bucky.
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Apr 2, 2021 12:14
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It's because they filmed in Prague and she's a German film actor.
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Apr 2, 2021 12:49
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Bust Rodd posted:I dunno, I feel like there’s a certain threshold for an anti-hero to very importantly not have crossed before they get off the ground. Loki had a multi-million dollar movie that was just him essentially recreating 9/11 but with alien dragons instead of planes, so it’s like advertising a new and exciting adventure series on Disney+ called Bin Laden. Fwiw they've retconned it so that he was under the control of the mind stone during The Avengers, presumably to quell this exact concern.
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Apr 2, 2021 12:50
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It's always been overly reductive to argue that "the US military funds the MCU" and have that be the end of the argument. The reality is that while cooperation with the US military is helpful in terms of access to facilities and personnel etc to make accurate depictions in the movies, it's by no means essential for these multi-million dollar productions. Indeed, the degree to which these Disney productions have become cultural institutions makes it a bad idea for the military's PR guys to pick a fight with the MCU. Going all huffy about a fictional american being bad or a movie having a critique of militarism would just create a backlash and harm the image of the real world army. Thus you'll see that when the military or the CIA tries to exploit the MCU for promotional purposes, they typically avoid the gently caress out of the actual themes of the story and instead go for pretty shallow stuff like "this film has gadgets, we have gadgets too!" OTOH, major multi-million dollar productions do not exist in a cultural vacuum. The reality is that there is already broad support of the US military amongst the general US public - it's not like trumpism, 83% of Americans approve of the US military. Thus, however progressive the creators involved, there are still lines that MCU type productions simply won't cross. They aren't necessarily mere profit maximisers, but they don't want to alienate the majority of the target audience either. live with fruit posted:Fwiw they've retconned it so that he was under the control of the mind stone during The Avengers, presumably to quell this exact concern. Yeah, it's almost certain that they'll redeem this Loki as well, it'll just probably be a slower process that might, to be honest, actually work better. I mean, original Loki's redemption arc is confined to that one terrible MCU movie few people actually watched. Time travel gives Loki a lot of scope to e.g. go around and explore what would have happened if he made different choices, meet figures from his past etc etc. Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 12:54
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live with fruit posted:Fwiw they've retconned it so that he was under the control of the mind stone during The Avengers, presumably to quell this exact concern. I thought it was in the same way that the mind stone was influencing the Avengers in the lab scene. Everyone getting angrier, pushing against eachother, hyperfocusing on their own egos and negative thoughts. Which would totally lead to Loki of that movie doing what he does.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:01
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The thing with Zemo's mask was a little awkward tbh. What is it supposed to...mean? He just happens to own a purple thing and he puts it on and then takes it off. What's the point of it?live with fruit posted:Fwiw they've retconned it so that he was under the control of the mind stone during The Avengers, presumably to quell this exact concern.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:04
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Fangz posted:OTOH, major multi-million dollar productions do not exist in a cultural vacuum. The reality is that there is already broad support of the US military amongst the general US public - it's not like trumpism, 83% of Americans approve of the US military. Thus, however progressive the creators involved, there are still lines that MCU type productions simply won't cross. They aren't necessarily mere profit maximisers, but they don't want to alienate the majority of the target audience either. The Avengers are a global brand, to the point that Marvel has to make concessions to show in China. Roughly a third of Endgame's $2.79 billion came from the US and not all of them love the military so are we really talking about the majority?
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Apr 2, 2021 13:11
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Fangz posted:Time travel gives Loki a lot of scope to e.g. go around and explore what would have happened if he made different choices, meet figures from his past etc etc. “Hmm, Captain America talked about fighting someone in Germany who stood above everyone else, maybe I’ll track him down, see what that’s all about” “Oh no” EDIT: They really don't need to make anything explicit vis a vis redemption for specific actions. Just leave it at he was a villain, now he's got more ambiguous motivations. Magneto killed a fuckton of people and he's been running with the x-men for, like, a decade now. Boxman fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 13:11
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BrianWilly posted:Just to be clear...when did they do this? I don't remember them doing this at all. A couple of years ago? It wasn't anything in a movie or show but I believe in a character bio on the official website, or something like that. live with fruit fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 13:12
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BrianWilly posted:The thing with Zemo's mask was a little awkward tbh. What is it supposed to...mean? He just happens to own a purple thing and he puts it on and then takes it off. What's the point of it? It's so they can have a stunt double do action stuff.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:29
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live with fruit posted:A couple of years ago? It wasn't anything in a movie or show but I believe in a character bio on the official website, or something like that.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:33
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BrianWilly posted:Yeah I'm gonna say that kinda stuff doesn't count. They sort of snuck it onto the website so I imagine it'll come up in Loki. The trailer seems to tease Loki sitting through a This Is Your Life thing with the TVA.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:37
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BrianWilly posted:The thing with Zemo's mask was a little awkward tbh. What is it supposed to...mean? He just happens to own a purple thing and he puts it on and then takes it off. What's the point of it? Its a nod to his appearance in the comics.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:46
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Agreed with both the take that this Zemo bears little relationship to the one we saw in Civil War, outside of killing the guy who was gonna help make more Super Soldiers and also somehow simultaneously that I love this new Zemo, who feels a little closer to the deranged "I'm taking everybody down with me if I can't be in charge anymore!" persona from the original run of Thunderbolts. I absolutely hated that they had the lead Flagsmasher blow up and kill the GRC dudes she had tied up because otherwise she and the others were unequivocally the good guys. That didn't make any goddamn sense at all.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:47
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Jerusalem posted:I absolutely hated that they had the lead Flagsmasher blow up and kill the GRC dudes she had tied up because otherwise she and the others were unequivocally the good guys. That didn't make any goddamn sense at all. Their leader or whoever had just died in a GRC camp from poor conditions so it wasn't completely out of the blue. Plus, it was just Karli. The guy who robbed the bank and punched that guard into a lightpost seemed pretty shocked. live with fruit fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 13:50
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Hipster Occultist posted:Its a nod to his appearance in the comics.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:55
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BrianWilly posted:Yes I'm aware, but "he wears it in the comics" is a very shallow reason for this character to be dressed up like a CW villain here. The MCU has generally been pretty good about giving meaningful reasons for characters to don their iconic costumes, but there doesn't seem to be even a token excuse for this look. That's why I said it was awkward. What's worse is that they kept the face mold in the mask when it was in the car. Compare that to Spider-Man's mask, which goes limp whenever it's not on his face.
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Apr 2, 2021 13:57
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BrianWilly posted:Yes I'm aware, but "he wears it in the comics" is a very shallow reason for this character to be dressed up like a CW villain here. The MCU has generally been pretty good about giving meaningful reasons for characters to don their iconic costumes, but there doesn't seem to be even a token excuse for this look. That's why I said it was awkward. He seemed to have a moment when he noticed the mask, and when he reached out for it he briefly held his hand on it as if in reverence, so there's a decent chance it'll come up later in the series. Personally, I think it's an executioner's mask. The Zemos of old could've started out as executioners for some king or another, eventually got granted titles and land, and the mask is some kind of ancestral family heirloom. But we'll see if/when Sam asks him what's up with the mask (Bucky doesn't care).
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Apr 2, 2021 14:26
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twistedmentat posted:Someone needs to gif Zemo dancing Seconded. I thought the episode was all over the place but at least introduced some interesting plotlines. I also liked "And I stole your wings to save his rear end from his rear end".
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Apr 2, 2021 14:38
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BrianWilly posted:Yes I'm aware, but "he wears it in the comics" is a very shallow reason for this character to be dressed up like a CW villain here. The MCU has generally been pretty good about giving meaningful reasons for characters to don their iconic costumes, but there doesn't seem to be even a token excuse for this look. That's why I said it was awkward. Its cool and he's a cool guy.
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Apr 2, 2021 15:02
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BrianWilly posted:Yes I'm aware, but "he wears it in the comics" is a very shallow reason for this character to be dressed up like a CW villain here. The MCU has generally been pretty good about giving meaningful reasons for characters to don their iconic costumes, but there doesn't seem to be even a token excuse for this look. That's why I said it was awkward. The fact that he found it in a vintage car that belonged to one of his ancestors and then held it with an air of reverence telegraphs that the mask has some sort of legacy for the Zemos.
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Apr 2, 2021 15:26
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God, once again next Friday cannot come soon enough.
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Apr 2, 2021 15:28
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I thought the Karli turn heel scene was so hamfisted. There was absolutely no build up to her turning murder terrorist. Especially as we haven't seen reciprocal acts from GRC or any sort of indication on her character. This is far lazier than Danereys and the bells.
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Apr 2, 2021 15:30
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Thundercracker posted:I thought the Karli turn heel scene was so hamfisted. There was absolutely no build up to her turning murder terrorist. Especially as we haven't seen reciprocal acts from GRC or any sort of indication on her character. This is far lazier than Danereys and the bells. The Flag Smashers have used violence before, their leader or whatever just died and when the ponytail guy was talking to her about life after whatever they're doing, her behavior seemed to imply that she didn't see an after. It wasn't telegraphed but it didn't come out of no where. I don't think it's even accurate to say she's turned heel. Walker will definitely think so and he'll pursue her as one but there's enough there for the audience to maintain sympathy for her, and for the writers to write her way out of it. live with fruit fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Apr 2, 2021 |
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Apr 2, 2021 15:37
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Wow, this episode was quite... busy. Not sure I buy like 50% of these character choices. Why they gotta do Karli like this?
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Apr 2, 2021 15:39
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