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okay, when two mods said to stop fighting about what term to use, that wasn't an invitation to start fighting about whether it was valid to fight about what term to use jfc
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Apr 2, 2021 21:48
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Sarcastr0 posted:That sets up incentives, but is insufficient in determining where we should end up. Throwing it to public pressure and navigating current immigration law is not really a recipe for humanity. what do you want us to say? The democrats are currently actively proving to us that the 'vote blue' plan doesn't do anything, AOC literally just said the camps are actually better now because 'babies aren't being torn out of the arms of their mothers' (ignoring that they are being torn away from their aunts and denied contact with their parents in America) so if one of the biggest lawmakers eager to use her platform to highlight the cruelty of the camps three years ago suddenly has gone from crying outside the gates to 'actually it's getting better' what loving hope do we have 'pushing Joe left' on this other than making it a massive public pressure issue? The loving lawmakers aren't doing anything, all we have is public pressure.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:22
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Lawyers should absolutely get total access, media definitely should not get 'unfettered' access for a bunch of reasons just related to turning media loose in facilities with minors. Media definitely should get some access, but not in a way that compromises the functioning or the privacy of the kids. Frankly I trust immigration lawyers vastly more than news crews to meaningfully and effectively look out for the well being of people in the camps When I said "unfettered access" I didn't mean that the National Enquirer should have open visiting rights whenever it wants. I meant that the media of lawyers' choice (even if it's the National Enquirer) should be allowed to see what's going on even if it's not Spruce Up the Joint & Let Rachel Maddow In Day once a month or w/e.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:31
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sexpig by night posted:I think 'why' matters insofar that, like I said, 'if you don't vote for Joe you're supporting kids in cages' was a pretty huge part of messaging, so it's fairly important to establish if his team was just outright lying and he fully thinks this is fine or if they just misrepresented how much he actually cares. I think that question also answers 1 and 2, because so many activists chose to put their faith in electoralism and blind party politics, assuming that the man famous for being a literal segregationist would stop the camps. This is a direct admission that you're only engaging with this topic to get some sick burns on your posting enemies for supporting Biden. You're not engaging in good faith. You're just here to play team sports and spin "Biden bad" any way you can so you can say "I told you so". The fact that you look at the magnitude of the crisis and this is what you think is important is really gross. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 2, 2021 22:33
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sexpig by night posted:what do you want us to say? The democrats are currently actively proving to us that the 'vote blue' plan doesn't do anything, AOC literally just said the camps are actually better now because 'babies aren't being torn out of the arms of their mothers' (ignoring that they are being torn away from their aunts and denied contact with their parents in America) so if one of the biggest lawmakers eager to use her platform to highlight the cruelty of the camps three years ago suddenly has gone from crying outside the gates to 'actually it's getting better' what loving hope do we have 'pushing Joe left' on this other than making it a massive public pressure issue? The loving lawmakers aren't doing anything, all we have is public pressure. You do realize you contradicted yourself here, right? Here's AOC's comments, https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1377976862622707717?s=20
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Apr 2, 2021 22:46
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:You do realize you contradicted yourself here, right? My dude the point is the EO literally only covered mothers and fathers, and the thing I said after that underlined bit was a real thing where our government removed a child from their biological aunt because she wasn't a 'direct parent' and then refused to contact that child's parent who was IN AMERICA ALREADY. So, no, they're not actually doing anything that different.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:51
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sexpig by night posted:So, no, they're not actually doing anything that different. The actions taken under this administration are fundamentally different than Trump. Both in word and actions. The two are not the same. Now, is it true the Biden Administration might be doing a good enough job. Yes, I'd agree. Immigration should have higher priority and doesn't have as much focus as it should but a difference is a difference nonetheless.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:57
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Willa Rogers posted:When I said "unfettered access" I didn't mean that the National Enquirer should have open visiting rights whenever it wants. Oh cuz yknow that's what unfettered means. But yeah I think we're on the same page here.
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Apr 2, 2021 22:58
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:The actions taken under this administration are fundamentally different than Trump. Both in word and actions. The two are not the same. Now, is it true the Biden Administration might be doing a good enough job. Yes, I'd agree. Immigration should have higher priority and doesn't have as much focus as it should but a difference is a difference nonetheless. children are still being 'ripped away' from families as they cross, there's just one single category that (may) not be now.
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Apr 2, 2021 23:05
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sexpig by night posted:children are still being 'ripped away' from families as they cross, there's just one single category that (may) not be now. Yes, but what do you want out of this? I can tell you it's loving absolutely disgusting reprehensible and deeply disappointing along with a myriad of excellent good reasons. And I don't believe it's impossible to solve. Yet, this is a problem that has spanned over nearly Century, multiple generations, multiple administrations, etc. and with that I don't expect one administration to simply solve this problem but one is making a difference. The others one consists of fascists trying to turn the one of the worlds few remaining democracies back into a racist authoritarian dictatorship.
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Apr 2, 2021 23:25
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sexpig by night posted:what do you want us to say? The democrats are currently actively proving to us that the 'vote blue' plan doesn't do anything, AOC literally just said the camps are actually better now because 'babies aren't being torn out of the arms of their mothers' (ignoring that they are being torn away from their aunts and denied contact with their parents in America) so if one of the biggest lawmakers eager to use her platform to highlight the cruelty of the camps three years ago suddenly has gone from crying outside the gates to 'actually it's getting better' what loving hope do we have 'pushing Joe left' on this other than making it a massive public pressure issue? The loving lawmakers aren't doing anything, all we have is public pressure. I don't want to talk about voting blue or not. What policies do you want in the end? And what is your thinking on a good implementation plan to get there? Not how to get the votes, or politically how to force the policies. That's an extremely threadbare conversation.
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Apr 2, 2021 23:34
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Sarcastr0 posted:I don't want to talk about voting blue or not. raze ICE and CBP to the loving ground. every day these agencies remain intact and every day the loving nazis that work for them continue to have unfettered access to the vulnerable, countless abuses will continue to be perpetuated but unfortunately biden's administration has shown zero willingness to engage in denazification, and even the supposed leftist democrats like AOC seem to have given up on this demand. both democrats and republicans seem to be A-OK with employing nazis as guards to the camps. poo poo sucks, and people are gonna be abused, hurt, traumatized, and killed over this.
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Apr 2, 2021 23:56
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A big flaming stink posted:raze ICE and CBP to the loving ground. every day these agencies remain intact and every day the loving nazis that work for them continue to have unfettered access to the vulnerable, countless abuses will continue to be perpetuated
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Apr 3, 2021 00:02
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Sarcastr0 posted:So how would you handle immigration in a post-ICE world? What's the humane way to handle that issue? all i am trying to say is that everyone involved with trump's ice needs to be loving shitcanned right now.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:07
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Sarcastr0 posted:So how would you handle immigration in a post-ICE world? What's the humane way to handle that issue? The same way we did before ICE existed?
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Apr 3, 2021 00:08
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DoomTrainPhD posted:The same way we did before ICE existed? For instance, once you get here, you get to work. And be paid minimum wage, with benefits, no questions asked. Businesses have been using undocumented immigrants like serfs, and if we end that I think it goes a long way towards fixing this shadow citizen thing we got going.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:11
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A big flaming stink posted:all i am trying to say is that everyone involved with trump's ice needs to be loving shitcanned right now. Incandescent rage is fun and all, and I share it (though it took me a shameful couple of years of the Obama admin to come around). But I think there's more here to debate and discuss.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:12
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Sarcastr0 posted:So how would you handle immigration in a post-ICE world? What's the humane way to handle that issue? ICE is younger than most of the people who post in this thread, by a significant amount. Do you think they're integral to how immigration gets handled?
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Apr 3, 2021 00:13
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Sarcastr0 posted:Sure, but I don't think the conversation should end there. It's not incandescent rage, it's a policy suggestion. An extremely humble one at that, and the fact it's a complete nonstarter should tell you all you need to know about how much America loves border Nazis
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Apr 3, 2021 00:16
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Jaxyon posted:ICE is younger than most of the people who post in this thread, by a significant amount. Do you think they're integral to how immigration gets handled?
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Apr 3, 2021 00:18
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Jaxyon posted:ICE is younger than most of the people who post in this thread, by a significant amount. Do you think they're integral to how immigration gets handled? They may not be integral to the system, but they are pretty tightly integrated to various components in it. Unraveling that rat's nest will take time. Also, I posted about this before, and the fact of the matter is that when a federal agency gets abolished, its employees don't suddenly all lose their jobs. They get recruited at whatever other agencies that the duties of the abolished agency get transferred to, and in the case of ICE, that would mean those agents would continue to practice and spread their Nazism. So abolishing ICE is not some sort of immediate magic solution — it needs to be planned carefully.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:19
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A big flaming stink posted:It's not incandescent rage, it's a policy suggestion. An extremely humble one at that, and the fact it's a complete nonstarter should tell you all you need to know about how much America loves border Nazis But ending the conversation with condemnation of the current system is treading well-trod ground. I would like to engage with something a bit more creative than that.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:21
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Sarcastr0 posted:The evil poo poo ICE did was mostly done by INS as well, if I recall. The US has always had some level of Border Nazis but INS was around since the 30's and was then split into 3 new agencies, which were then staffed up with the most riled up racists they could find post-9/11. ICE was started in an environment of xenophobic racism, and staffed as one. It's significantly worse. CBP notably has more criminals it's ranks than all other federal law enforcement agencies.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:22
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Worth noting that CBP does more than just border protection.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:24
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Jaxyon posted:The US has always had some level of Border Nazis but INS was around since the 30's and was then split into 3 new agencies, which were then staffed up with the most riled up racists they could find post-9/11. I recall growing up hearing all sorts of awful INS-related human rights violations back when NPR was less centrist, and so assumed this was the same. But I was unaware of how the new agency got more specialized, nor had I made the connection to the timeline of the staffing-up. I'd imagine DHS generally is a nightmare of anti-Muslim sentiment to this day.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:27
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Sarcastr0 posted:Huh. I did not know that. Good stuff! INS was bad. Our immigration policy has always been bad and people have been xenophobic and racist. The creation of DHS put that on steroids. CBP criminal conduct reached a high under the Trump admin, unsurprisingly.
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Apr 3, 2021 00:32
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Sarcastr0 posted:This is really frustrating. It's not that humble, but it is a good thing to do. But also it's not the end of the conversation. And invoking Nazis is not a sign of not being mad. Not that you shouldn't be mad! uh, how else would you describe the ice/cbp goons if not border nazis?
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Apr 3, 2021 00:47
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Yes, but what do you want out of this? What exactly is the problem you're referring to that spans 'nearly' a century and multiple generations and administrations? It's essentially the entirety of this county's existence and any Caribbean or Latin American country where the vast majority of immigrants are coming from. Name any nation or locality in the region of the continental americas where the US hasn't coup'ed, enacted sanctions as a modern form of siege warfare, and attempted to or has successfully effectively economically strangled into subservience within living memory. What is the Biden administration solving by maintaining the strict and dare I say authoritarian and racist border immigration regime that forces enormous numbers of people to be concentrated into encampments. The same ones largely overseen by the same agencies that have repeatedly shown their willingness to commit atrocity under either administration and almost never be held to account. Has there even been mention of how Trump activated these agencies 'elite' paramilitary units against protesters, even a hint of investigation or inquiry into that? These same agencies were utilized as a weapon against US citizens with abduction and terror tactics and we're not even pretending to grapple with that. It's loving laughable to pretend the same administration is attempting justice for non-citizens unseen and unaccountably. quote:The others one consists of fascists trying to turn the one of the worlds few remaining democracies back into a racist authoritarian dictatorship. That's not the others one, that's the same one you've got right now regardless of party. And as the conditions we create beyond our borders continue to deteriorate much the same they are within, more and more desperate people will flood where most of what they could have had was plundered to. Which is exactly where concentration camps or internment camps or refugee camps or whatever the gently caress name makes you feel comfortable with start edging ever further into something worse. Jaxyon posted:<------ Forgot that I wanted to ask, did they re-buy your red text because of a spelling error? It's stupid either way but that would be exquisitely stupid. hobotrashcanfires fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Apr 3, 2021 |
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Apr 3, 2021 00:53
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Sarcastr0 posted:Huh. I did not know that. Good stuff! INS wasn't great either but yea ICE is literally the result of them atomizing INS and explicitly taking its most xenophobic and violent elements and going 'let's make an agency only about that'. I'm a pretty open borders person in the whole but I'm willing to accept a 'compromise' agenda of 'yea we're done experimenting with this DHS poo poo' and at least rolling things back to the still bad but less militantly fascist square one to work off.
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Apr 3, 2021 01:13
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Sarcastr0 posted:Huh. I did not know that. Good stuff! ICE's reach into every city was an Obama era development. Bush offered up a voluntary program called Secure Communities to let ICE link up with local, state and federal law enforcement but nobody really joined it because nobody wanted to work with ICE. Obama aggressively expanded Secure Communities in order to build up a more efficient terror/deportation machine. The current immigration hell machine is a thoroughly bipartisan effort, which is why many disagree with the notion that the changing of the guard altered the 'intent' of the camps - as though intent ever held any value at all to the people crammed into plastic walled cells.
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Apr 3, 2021 01:15
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Nix Panicus posted:ICE's reach into every city was an Obama era development. Bush offered up a voluntary program called Secure Communities to let ICE link up with local, state and federal law enforcement but nobody really joined it because nobody wanted to work with ICE. Obama aggressively expanded Secure Communities in order to build up a more efficient terror/deportation machine. yea this is actually also very important, even in it's Bush era form ICE was less terrible just because working with it was kinda a general suggestion more than anything, Obama and Trump are the guys who made Secure Communities a major tentpole of immigration policy by actively punishing places that didn't work with ICE and Border Patrol, which is why Border Patrol has authority in the extremely not border state of loving Missouri somehow.
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Apr 3, 2021 01:18
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hobotrashcanfires posted:What exactly is the problem you're referring to that spans 'nearly' a century and multiple generations and administrations? The United States has at least in modern history Post World War 2 treated immigrants legal or illegal like poo poo. For a Country built on immigrants, the United States is incredibly xenophobic and largely still is to this day. hobotrashcanfires posted:It's essentially the entirety of this county's existence and any Caribbean or Latin American country where the vast majority of immigrants are coming from. Name any nation or locality in the region of the continental americas where the US hasn't coup'ed, enacted sanctions as a modern form of siege warfare, and attempted to or has successfully effectively economically strangled into subservience within living memory. What are you trying to tell me? Yes, you are correct he United States in the 1960s exploited the hell out of Latin America and for anyone reading Tears of Latin American is excellent book on the topic. Essentially, the Western World (US + Europe) has given themselves to have democratic governments but not for anyone else. hobotrashcanfires posted:What is the Biden administration solving by maintaining the strict and dare I say authoritarian and racist border immigration regime that forces enormous numbers of people to be concentrated into encampments. The same ones largely overseen by the same agencies that have repeatedly shown their willingness to commit atrocity under either administration and almost never be held to account. Has there even been mention of how Trump activated these agencies 'elite' paramilitary units against protesters, even a hint of investigation or inquiry into that? These same agencies were utilized as a weapon against US citizens with abduction and terror tactics and we're not even pretending to grapple with that. It's loving laughable to pretend the same administration is attempting justice for non-citizens unseen and unaccountably. I don't agree. People are being held accountable. Leaders of various agencies are being removed along with a whole host of other changes. You are right, we should do more but Biden is not Trump. Period.
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Apr 3, 2021 01:21
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Yes, you are correct he United States in the 1960s exploited the hell out of Latin America and for anyone reading Tears of Latin American is excellent book on the topic. Essentially, the Western World (US + Europe) has given themselves to have democratic governments but not for anyone else. You seem to be implying the US stopped exploiting the hell out of Latin America after the 1960s. I certainly hope thats not the case and your choice of mentioning a specific decade was just because the book you cited only refers to that decade. Because the coups and exploitation never really stopped.
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Apr 3, 2021 01:26
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I don't agree. People are being held accountable. Leaders of various agencies are being removed along with a whole host of other changes. You are right, we should do more but Biden is not Trump. Period. legit, do you have any sources for this wrt ice/cbp? i haven't heard hide nor hair of accountability since that weird "theyre abolishing ice without abolishing ice" tweet
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Apr 3, 2021 01:28
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Close the camps. Release everyone (not into the desert). Nobel please.
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Apr 3, 2021 01:48
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Nix Panicus posted:You seem to be implying the US stopped exploiting the hell out of Latin America after the 1960s. I certainly hope thats not the case and your choice of mentioning a specific decade was just because the book you cited only refers to that decade. Because the coups and exploitation never really stopped. That is not my intent. A big flaming stink posted:legit, do you have any sources for this wrt ice/cbp? i haven't heard hide nor hair of accountability since that weird "theyre abolishing ice without abolishing ice" tweet I don't have specifics on those organizations.
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Apr 3, 2021 01:49
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Reality Protester posted:Close the camps. Release everyone (not into the desert). Nobel please. the cool thing is when you close the camps you can spend that camp/guard/abuse coverup money on giving the soon to be further worked foster system a badly needed injection of funding and resources! Because a poo poo ton of fascists will be out of work and we won't have to pay to maintain facilities in a pretty hostile environment where that's costly!
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Apr 3, 2021 01:52
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Cool. It just seemed weird that you pulled a specific decade from several generations ago out as a reference, because the people on the border now are partially there as fallout from recent regime changes (and partially there as the leading edge of climate refugees, one problem that is just going to get continually worse). One of the vanishingly few good things Trump had going for him was how utterly incompetent his government was at following through on supporting coups. Biden still wants to recognize Guiado, who doesnt even have an official position anymore, but hopefully that ship has irrevocably sailed.
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Apr 3, 2021 01:56
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sexpig by night posted:the cool thing is when you close the camps you can spend that camp/guard/abuse coverup money on giving the soon to be further worked foster system a badly needed injection of funding and resources! Because a poo poo ton of fascists will be out of work and we won't have to pay to maintain facilities in a pretty hostile environment where that's costly! Arent they spending like $750 per person per day to keep them locked up in the camps? That seems like a poo poo ton of fraud and lining contractor's pockets, which is likely why the system is so resistant to change. A whole lot of people's paydays rely on keeping immigrants in cages. There's probably a whole patronage network too powerful for a mere president of the united states to meaningfully affect.
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Apr 3, 2021 02:01
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Nix Panicus posted:Arent they spending like $750 per person per day to keep them locked up in the camps? That seems like a poo poo ton of fraud and lining contractor's pockets, which is likely why the system is so resistant to change. A whole lot of people's paydays rely on keeping immigrants in cages. There's probably a whole patronage network too powerful for a mere president of the united states to meaningfully affect. yea there's so many money pits in this poo poo. Like, there's always gonna be that poo poo but it's especially vile knowing that while kids are going unbathed in cages cramped together some contract freak is making probably one of the better paydays of their year.
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Apr 3, 2021 02:13
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