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apatheticman posted:Doom is right, a benevolent philosopher king is truly the only solution to the tragedy of the commons as over a long enough timeline the damage he causes will be eclipsed by the damage the world will do to itself if he does nothing. There is no inequality under Doom. There is only Doom and not Doom.
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Apr 4, 2021 19:54
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live with fruit posted:When it comes to having an interesting villain, yes. Many. Genuinely Interesting villains: Thanos Ego Mysterio Vulture Killmonger Ultron? Show Zemo is great but film Zemo isn't. e: probably something that Spiderman is 2/2 on a short list.
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Apr 4, 2021 20:03
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Alchenar posted:Genuinely Interesting villains: Something like that, and to the point all but Ultron are Phase 3.
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Apr 4, 2021 20:13
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Alchenar posted:e: probably something that Spiderman is 2/2 on a short list. It's been long established that Spider-Man and Batman are neck-and-neck for Best Rogues' Gallery, and that everyone else is miles behind.
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Apr 4, 2021 20:14
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Partly it's because villains are becoming culturally unfashionable. In the 90s/early 00s you had characters like Jafar, Scar, Sauron and Voldemort who were evil without many frills. Over time animated movies moved to a model where you had a minor villain but most of the conflict was about interpersonal relationships that could be resolved through cooperation. That described films like Moana, Frozen, Raya, The Lego Movie, Ratatouille. The bombastic memorable villains just don't exist any more. Superhero films, and a lot of Sci Fi/Fantasy movies, are in an in-between world where the villains have emotionally sympathetic motivations but the conflict still needs to be resolved violently. I think it's hard to walk that line.
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Apr 4, 2021 20:16
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Alchenar posted:Genuinely Interesting villains: The only one villain that I consider was an absolute failure is...whoever was the bad guy in Thor 2. The dark elves design was cool, but everything else...MEH.
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Apr 4, 2021 20:21
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Malekith, so evil the first syllable of his name means bad!
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Apr 4, 2021 20:32
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I liked some of the villains from the first two phases. I know it's a meme that every Marvel villain from that period was just an evil version of the hero (and don't get me wrong, that's largely true), but I think that worked well for Stane, Loki (in Thor 1, not so much Avengers), and Bucky (if he counts).
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Apr 4, 2021 20:53
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Loki isn't very much like Thor at all though. I'm not sure how you can think Bucky is questionable, but think Loki is definitely similar to Thor.
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Apr 4, 2021 20:59
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Ravel posted:Killmonger was a black radical who wanted to confront global inequality and white supremacy, violently if necessary, but he also introduced the idea that Wakanda had a responsibility to Africa and the African diaspora. That view already puts him into conflict with Black Panther, without the extra scenes where he declares global war and kicks the metaphorical puppy. The point is that the MCU consistently associates proactive radicalism with violent terrorism, and this is the source for a few of their villains. Killmonger did not want to confront global inequality and white supremacy with violence if necessary, he wanted to confront it EXCLUSIVELY with violence, and then preserve its existence with Black Supremacy replacing White. He explains this explicitly, its not some extra scene, its the scene where he finally says what he actually wants to do, which to that point had been completely vague beyond "get to Wakanda, get myself let in," and then later, "become king." He never said what he wanted to do as king until the scene where he says "This time we'll be on top," and "The sun will never set on the Wakandan Empire." Killmonger was not a proactive radical, he was an imperialist. He didn't want to undo the world's lovely state, he wanted to take the reigns and keep it otherwise exactly the same. And the movie even tells us explicitly that he is this way because the US Government trained him to think that way, and he gives a speech about how he let himself be their tool and murder black people around the world to accomplish his goals because he needed the training to do what he wanted! Like, the explicit text of the film is "Killmonger was not a revolutionary because the methods he wanted to use to accomplish his revolution and the world he wanted his revolution to create were indistinguishable from the existing status quo he wanted to overthrow because he was raised to think that type of world was good as long as you're the one benefitting from it," He can't be an example of Marvel undermining proactive radicalism by associating it with terrorism because he was never a proactive radical.
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Apr 4, 2021 21:22
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He fooled the great majority of people who watched the movie though
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Apr 4, 2021 21:40
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sonatinas posted:Flag smashers just need a combat division separate from main ops of expropriations Sanguinia posted:Killmonger did not want to confront global inequality and white supremacy with violence if necessary, he wanted to confront it EXCLUSIVELY with violence, and then preserve its existence with Black Supremacy replacing White. He explains this explicitly, its not some extra scene, its the scene where he finally says what he actually wants to do, which to that point had been completely vague beyond "get to Wakanda, get myself let in," and then later, "become king." He never said what he wanted to do as king until the scene where he says "This time we'll be on top," and "The sun will never set on the Wakandan Empire."
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Apr 4, 2021 22:41
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tsob posted:Loki isn't very much like Thor at all though. I'm not sure how you can think Bucky is questionable, but think Loki is definitely similar to Thor. Sorry, to clarify: I meant whether Bucky counts as the villain of the film. Sure, he's the eponymous Winter Soldier but Pierce/Hydra are the big bad.
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Apr 4, 2021 22:47
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Golden Bee posted:He fooled the great majority of people who watched the movie though The most effective deceptions use truth in them. And black people are still people - with all the failings that implies. While the outside was essentially unaware of Wakanda, Wakanda was very much aware of it. Figure quite a lot of people inside Wakanda were very much aware that the only reason they and their ancestors didn't share in being raped, abused, imprisoned, enslaved and degraded like the rest of Africa was because of their big-rear end lucky rock. And along with that awareness comes guilt and anger. Killmonger tapped into that. It doesn't take a brilliant manipulator to grok that plenty of Wakandans secretly dreamed of showing the Colonizers a version of "Black Power" that had nothing to do with marches and slogans. In It For The Tank posted:Sorry, to clarify: I meant whether Bucky counts as the villain of the film. Sure, he's the eponymous Winter Soldier but Pierce/Hydra are the big bad. Bucky is the villain of CA: TWS in the same way that the Headless Horseman is the villain of Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow Everyone fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 22:56
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Killmonger was not a real person, and the conflict was set up in the very first scene of the movie where his father said the following:N'Jobi posted:Their leaders have been assassinated. Communities flooded with drugs and weapons. They are overly policed and incarcerated. All over the planet, our people suffer because they don't have the tools to fight back. Echoed by Killmonger later: Killmonger posted:It's about two billion people all over the world that looks like us. But their lives are a lot harder. Wakanda has the tools to liberate 'em all. [...] You know, where I'm from... when black folks started revolutions, they never had the firepower... or the resources to fight their oppressors. Where was Wakanda? There was a choice made to associate these motivations with the violence they promote throughout the movie, and with lines like 'overthrow all countries, and Wakanda can rule them all, the right way!' All I'm saying is there's already a conflict here without having these characters turn into cartoonish war hawks, but the movie needs to have them be cartoonish war hawks to justify Black Panther fighting him.
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Apr 4, 2021 23:27
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Lord_Magmar posted:Wanda is explained to think she's making things better, she's also having a literal psychotic episode which Agatha intentionally makes worse to drive her deeper into her trauma and delusions for the explicit purpose of getting her in a vulnerable state to drain her power. And then Wanda mind raped her at the end and it’s supposed to be fine. Not really of course, but they were waayy too causal with that ending bit and did damage to Wanda’s character. LionArcher fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 23:29
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Alchenar posted:Genuinely Interesting villains: Ant man 2’s villain ghost person was solid. LionArcher fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Apr 4, 2021 |
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Apr 4, 2021 23:31
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AJA posted:It's been long established that Spider-Man and Batman are neck-and-neck for Best Rogues' Gallery, and that everyone else is miles behind. The fact that we don't have a film version of Clock King, Calendar Man, or Manbat is the reason the DCEU failed.
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Apr 4, 2021 23:39
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LionArcher posted:And then Wanda mind raped her at the end and it’s supposed to be fine. Not really of course, but they were waayy too causal with that ending bit and did damage to Wanda’s character. Wanda’s in pain and evil. Still a characterization.
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Apr 4, 2021 23:45
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The fact that we don't have a film version of Clock King, Calendar Man, or Manbat is the reason the DCEU failed. Killer crock horror fight and a proper him versus bats with all the rest of bats crew. Insane we haven’t gotten eight films. Batgirl, cat woman heist film, birds of prey 2. It could be so fun.
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Apr 4, 2021 23:45
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Ravel posted:Killmonger was not a real person, and the conflict was set up in the very first scene of the movie where his father said the following: This conspiracy theory oriented framing where the goal of this franchise is to propagandize against leftism is baffling. The point of Killmonger was that his revolution WAS A LIE, and the reason it was a lie was EXPLICITLY because of his American Military Mindset. The movie tells us this SEVERAL times. He's not a warmonger because the films wanted to knife Black Radicalism in the back as a philosophy so they put bullshit in his mouth, he's a warmonger because the United States made him one and because he wanted to be one because he considered the American model for global hegemony and the exploitation of non-whites by whites as ASPIRATIONAL. You're not supposed to think that Killmonger's message or motives are wrong, T'challa screams in his own dad's face that they are in fact right. You're supposed to realize that this dude doesn't believe in what he's preaching after all. The Flag Smashers are a totally different situation because they've continually gone out of their way to show the organization and virtually all of its members as noble and good. Before we even saw one the first thing we were told about them, by an American Military Officer, is that their message of a world without borders is an appealing one to many people. Now we have their leader doing bad things for entirely personal reasons over the objections of her comrades and that's somehow the show lighting a ANTIFA ARE TERRORISTS sign in 50 foot burning letters apparently? Come on.
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Apr 4, 2021 23:57
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In It For The Tank posted:I liked some of the villains from the first two phases. I know it's a meme that every Marvel villain from that period was just an evil version of the hero (and don't get me wrong, that's largely true), but I think that worked well for Stane, Loki (in Thor 1, not so much Avengers), and Bucky (if he counts). There's two levels of good Marvel villlains: well written characters with interesting motivation (Thanos, Killmonger) and characters played by great actors who can elevate anything (Stane, Hammer, Hela, Agatha). live with fruit fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Apr 5, 2021 |
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Apr 5, 2021 00:06
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I just checked the casting for Shang Chi and both the Mandarin is in it, but also Ben Kingsley lol.
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Apr 5, 2021 00:09
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Thundercracker posted:I just checked the casting for Shang Chi and both the Mandarin is in it, but also Ben Kingsley lol. The latter better be, even if Shang Chi just runs into him in a prison cell or something
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Apr 5, 2021 00:11
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Loki is both kinds of villains depending on who you ask. Also Killmonger ultimately doesn’t even believe in the Imperialism angle either. Sure if it works it works, but I think he explicitly intends to torpedo the whole world with the attack and have Wakanda end up destroyed too. That’s why he burns the plant, he doesn’t intend for there to be another King/Black Panther because he doesn’t intend for Wakanda to survive. His message is truthful, T’Challa outright agrees with it. Killmonger does not actually believe his own words, he is saying them to get the vengeance and suffering he wants, as explicitly trained in him by the CIA. Like, the good CIA guy, yes I know the issue with that, literally says Killmonger is following the training the CIA gave him. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Apr 5, 2021 |
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Apr 5, 2021 00:11
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The fact that we don't have a film version of Clock King, Calendar Man, or Manbat is the reason the DCEU failed. Right? The MCU made Mysterio work (fishbowl and all), I have no doubt they could do proper justice to the glory that is Clock King.
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Apr 5, 2021 00:41
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AJA posted:Right? The MCU made Mysterio work (fishbowl and all), I have no doubt they could do proper justice to the glory that is Clock King. Who would play Clock King?
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Apr 5, 2021 00:43
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Zil posted:Who would play Clock King?
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Apr 5, 2021 00:45
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Zil posted:Who would play Clock King? Neil Patrick Harris
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Apr 5, 2021 00:50
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Zil posted:Who would play Clock King? Jared Leto 
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Apr 5, 2021 00:50
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Matt Frewer
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Apr 5, 2021 00:51
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StrugglingHoneybun posted:Neil Patrick Harris I like this one, I could see it.
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Apr 5, 2021 00:53
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Robert Knepper was already Clock King
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Apr 5, 2021 01:04
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Speaking of villains, isn’t Johnathon Majors supposed to play Kang the Conqueror?
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Apr 5, 2021 01:08
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The Flash's rogues gallery is up there too. And the tv show, for all its eventual flaws, did a pretty good job with it.
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Apr 5, 2021 02:02
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Marsupial Ape posted:Oh, like a tankie defending violent revolutions and authoritarian regimes just because they have a veneer of Marxism? “Well ackshually Che Guevara was noble and laudable for executing all those political dissidents in the jungle”. What's your favorite brand of boot by taste? Do you take yours polished or unpolished?
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Apr 5, 2021 02:14
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I'm largely fine with Killmonger being depicted as a girlfriend-killing puppy-kicker and don't really consider it a severe case of having to villainize a character 'cuz his ideology was too sympathetic. His ideology was portrayed through the story as a front for his vengeance, and he co-opts the oppression of his people as an tool to lash out and punish the world that hurt him. Which isn't to say that he doesn't actually care about systemic racism or something, but circumstance, environment, and indoctrination* made him a killer, and he responds as such; anyone saying that he was right or how great and complex his ideology is pretty much neglects that his motivation for black justice is really just to kill people, and his methods to obtain black justice are just...to kill people. So of course he, y'know, kills people. *The fact that he was explicitly taught these methods from the military industrial complex shouldn't be lost in the shuffle, either. It's barely, superficially comparable to the situation with Karli here, where she's literally just correct about everything and was going about her goals of helping the needy through completely sympathetic means, so we had to show her executing helpless people so we can feel less ambivalent about the heroes punching her. Again, her ideology and her methods were both too likable, so we had to somehow make the character itself less likable. That's actually...the reverse of Killmonger, where the character's charisma obfuscates how fallacious his goals were.
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Apr 5, 2021 02:31
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Protagorean posted:What's your favorite brand of boot by taste? Do you take yours polished or unpolished? Same as you, whatever Stalin used.
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Apr 5, 2021 02:35
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I'm unironically glad every new episode of this punch man show creates so many arguments. Boring, this show ain't
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Apr 5, 2021 02:43
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BrianWilly posted:I'm largely fine with Killmonger being depicted as a girlfriend-killing puppy-kicker and don't really consider it a severe case of having to villainize a character 'cuz his ideology was too sympathetic. His ideology was portrayed through the story as a front for his vengeance, and he co-opts the oppression of his people as an tool to lash out and punish the world that hurt him. Which isn't to say that he doesn't actually care about systemic racism or something, but circumstance, environment, and indoctrination* made him a killer, and he responds as such; anyone saying that he was right or how great and complex his ideology is pretty much neglects that his motivation for black justice is really just to kill people, and his methods to obtain black justice are just...to kill people. So of course he, y'know, kills people. Whilst i don't agree that it was just in service of making Karli less likeable, but I totally can see how this opinion exists and am sorry I mis-understood your initial stance around it and comparing it to Killmonger. I think it's a reasonable direction for her to take, especially with how we know the various Super Soldier Serums generally cause instability (Hulk/Abomination, Red Skull, so on and so forth) in just about everyone except the very best most exceptionally selfless people, plus it's very much treated as her lashing out not for idealogical reasons but for personal vengeance (which is the point I'm trying to compare to Killmonger, their idealogy is generally correct looking, but due to personal desires for vengeance they let killing become their focus, for Killmonger in totality, for Karli in this specific moment). I don't find her less likeable, so much as more realistic. There's also the possibility that the resources she's stealing were going to people who need them, and simply had not arrived yet because of the sheer size of the efforts the GRC have to undertake, which doesn't make it okay that people are dying but does mean stealing those resources might be killing other people in need (which is not the focus of the show, nor is it what the Flagsmashers specifically care about). They're good people with good hearts but I don't think they've been portrayed as perfect. When robbing that bank at the start they caused mass panic amongst people who were innocent, and that kick into a pole and smash against the ground could have killed Sam's friend/contact, and their fight on top of the vans also could've easily been fatal for the heroes (in fact Karli in particular seems quite willing to kill Bucky for getting in her way). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Apr 5, 2021 |
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Apr 5, 2021 02:52
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