|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 02:40 |
|
|
Marzzle posted:maybe arguing about it IS fun tell us about youre beliefs, brother. whats so good in there that has you turning your nose up at machine orks
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:05
|
|
|
Inverted Icon posted:If we're talking about 'the basic tenets of reality' can you tell me in what ways an electron flowing in your brain is substantially different from a glass shattering on the ground? Literally, I can make a hamiltonian for both of them. You're body, including your brain, are made of atoms which will Never Leave the trajectory that outside forces put them under I make a deterministic model of the human brain because I SORT OF understand some of the basic fundamental components and phenomena regarding it. truly, free will is a lie
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:05
|
|
|
Perry Mason Jar posted:Sorry do you mean if you believe in absolute free will? my basic tenet is that if you live in an industrial society your experience, desires, etc. are so thoroughly enmeshed with the situations your material relations put you into that it's meaningless to ponder the infinestimal effects quantum jumbo or whatever might have on what you want to do.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:07
|
|
|
nut posted:we did it, we defended the spirit realm
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:07
|
|
|
Inverted Icon posted:If we're talking about 'the basic tenets of reality' can you tell me in what ways an electron flowing in your brain is substantially different from a glass shattering on the ground? Literally, I can make a hamiltonian for both of them. You're body, including your brain, are made of atoms which will Never Leave the trajectory that outside forces put them under Perry Mason Jar posted:A belief in absolute free will is silly but a belief in absolute determinism is also very silly and definitely not borne out by Science (as its proponents would have you believe). You see? Responding to what I've bolded there: “The idea of a deterministic time evolution represented by a trajectory in phase space can only be upheld within the framework of classical mechanics if a point in phase space has infinite precision" (Drossel, B 2015) Which is why I was forced to challenge the "tenets of reality" because, well, they're generally suppositions and useful frames not absolute truths. Marzzle posted:maybe arguing about it IS fun gently caress, it IS kinda fun.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:08
|
|
|
So I guess you can't tell me, huh? Not as a flippant joke. Really really, can you tell me why the electron flow in a brain is incalculable? Not 'too complex for us to calculate' but 'as a tenet of reality you can't caluclate it' edit: formulating pmj response
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:09
|
|
|
Marzzle posted:it doesn't mean I have to believe in any of it and if anything it's more important to be able to dismiss it. you can believe in whatever if you're insanely powerful it doesn't matter because the system will bend itself to keep you sitting pretty. If you're a regular joe then your odds of becoming marginalized and discredited are a lot higher Yeah I'm not trying to convince anyone. As soon as I mention Epstein it's all out the window. I'm just trying to say that yes you can dismiss supernatural ideas, but that doesn't mean anything if the people in power still believe it and are using it to their advantage. Silencing discussion of it doesn't help, I'd like to know what the spirits were telling Epstein or whoever regardless if I think they are real or not. Sort of like it's beneficial to know what Q is going to tell his followers even if it's not JFK jr
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:11
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:my basic tenet is that if you live in an industrial society your experience, desires, etc. are so thoroughly enmeshed with the situations your material relations put you into that it's meaningless to ponder the infinestimal effects quantum jumbo or whatever might have on what you want to do. That objects/people/beliefs are products is not a refutation of free will if the product is also involved in a process of auto-production.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:11
|
|
|
Zhulik posted:tell us about youre beliefs, brother. whats so good in there that has you turning your nose up at machine orks my strong belief is that psychedelics open us up to suggestion from ourselves or other people. if you believe in a spirit realm before tripping, it's probably only going to make you believe in it more and your trip will unfold along the same lines as what you thought it would. I think all the times I've "seen god" were just my brain being unable to interpret what the hell was happening. I think psychedelic substances are molecules that plants evolved to confuse animals so the plants wouldn't be eaten people should respect psychedelics as powerful experiences about one's self which you can learn from and grow as a human being. it makes sense that the government figured out how to alter people's basic conception of reality by using them in programs like MKULTRA
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:13
|
|
|
Perry Mason Jar posted:That objects/people/beliefs are products is not a refutation of free will if the product is also involved in a process of auto-production. a 3D printer that can 3D print another 3D printer doesn't have free will imo
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:15
|
|
|
oh also fungus, can't forget all the trippy fungus molecules
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:15
|
|
|
and the dumb part is that this poo poo is fascinating. I'm constantly in awe of how these things came to be. I'm just not in awe of the secret machine elf realm, it's just a hallucination in our big fat ape minds
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:16
|
|
|
Inverted Icon posted:Not as a flippant joke. Really really, can you tell me why the electron flow in a brain is incalculable? Not 'too complex for us to calculate' but 'as a tenet of reality you can't caluclate it' Because it would require infinite precision, as already mentioned. Further, finite volumes can only contain finite information - you can only obtain a meaningful value within the construct of natural sciences if the information can be encoded, manipulated, and transmitted. In other words, informational processes are subject to the same limitations that physical processes are limited to. You are talking about a Laplacian demon and it's limited by the categorical problems infinities and infinitesimals.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:17
|
|
|
Marzzle posted:my strong belief is that psychedelics open us up to suggestion from ourselves or other people. if you believe in a spirit realm before tripping, it's probably only going to make you believe in it more and your trip will unfold along the same lines as what you thought it would. I think all the times I've "seen god" were just my brain being unable to interpret what the hell was happening. I think psychedelic substances are molecules that plants evolved to confuse animals so the plants wouldn't be eaten thank you. ive not taken dmt, but this doesnt sound as fun to me as an entire monster manual of machine entities existing in one's brain, waiting to offer boons to those who can recite their SPECIAL DEFENSES and NO. APPEARING entries.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:20
|
|
|
Fried Watermelon posted:Yeah I'm not trying to convince anyone. As soon as I mention Epstein it's all out the window. lots of people who don't believe in the supernatural do believe that our government is corrupt and our intelligence agencies are evil. maybe everyone I know is humoring me but I talk about epstien stuff with plenty of normal rear end folks. the key is knowing which parts are hard for people to swallow because of decades of disinfo (UFOs, MKULTRA, machine elves are real, literally an alex jones bit at this point). if you can demonstrate how epstien stuff is based on facts and occurs in line with a mundane (yet evil) government then lots of people will listen to you
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:20
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:a 3D printer that can 3D print another 3D printer doesn't have free will imo 
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:20
|
|
|
ugh
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:24
|
|
|
Perry Mason Jar posted:You see? I guess my refutations hit up against the uncertainty principle and can't go beyond that. Still, I'm hesitant to agree that the sum of these uncertainties actually indicate 'will' or just 'uncertainty' Edit: sigh, i am defeated for now back to school i guess Inverted Icon has issued a correction as of 18:27 on Apr 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:25
|
|
|
Perry Mason Jar posted:gently caress, it IS kinda fun. arguing is fun especially on the internet with strangers. people shouldn't look to cspam to validate their preconceptions, it's ok to have your beliefs challenged because you get a free chance to test their validity or modify them to be more accurate
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:27
|
|
|
Marzzle posted:arguing is fun especially on the internet with strangers. people shouldn't look to cspam to validate their preconceptions, it's ok to have your beliefs challenged because you get a free chance to test their validity or modify them to be a more accurate this is one reason I really hate it when people with buttons barge into a thread the moment there's any disagreement like it's their job to smooth things over and enforce inside voices.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:30
|
|
|
Inverted Icon posted:Edit: sigh, back to school i guess https://arxiv.org/pdf/1909.03697.pdf
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:32
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:this is one reason I really hate it when people with buttons barge into a thread the moment there's any disagreement like it's their job to smooth things over and enforce inside voices. threadcops suck
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:33
|
|
|
Hooplah posted:it's not your responsibility to gatekeep the thread's discussions. state your opinions if you have them, but you don't get to tell everyone else itt what they're allowed to talk about or believe , said the Gatekeeper.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:34
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:this is one reason I really hate it when people with buttons barge into a thread the moment there's any disagreement like it's their job to smooth things over and enforce inside voices. There was a Crypto Cuttlefish thread that mentioned how intelligence agencies were (are?) infiltrating internet message boards and becoming mods in order to stifle organic (self-policing) community. This is not to say that moderation is bad but a unilateral moderation certainly is and we need to free my mans Cuppy Tea who didn't do poo poo!!
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:34
|
|
|
Inverted Icon posted:Still, I'm hesitant to agree that the sum of these uncertainties actually indicate 'will' or just 'uncertainty' We can only really strive to prove or disprove indeterminism, at least for now - you can't even begin to tackle Will without a thoroughgoing proof of consciousness at a minimum, so lmao. poo poo, there aren't even very good refutations of solipsism, you have to just shrug and keep it moving.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:38
|
|
|
Perry Mason Jar posted:There was a Crypto Cuttlefish thread that mentioned how intelligence agencies were (are?) infiltrating internet message boards absolutely happens but idk if SA is popular enough to warrant a full time nanny. maybe we already have one just because the site used to be popular and institutional inertia I also think the mods may just suck poo poo because they're hand picked from people spending way too much time viewing the world through the lens of the internet
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:39
|
|
|
Same problem representational democracy generally has: anyone who wants power is unlikely to be someone you should actually give power to.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:41
|
|
|
Marzzle posted:absolutely happens but idk if SA is popular enough to warrant a full time nanny. maybe we already have one just because the site used to be popular and institutional inertia There are open news reporting of a CIA official praising an SA mod for doing the work that the CIA wants to do but can’t so.....
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 18:52
|
|
|
anyone itt interested in these questions of consciousness and reality should really seriously check out GEB by Douglas Hofstadter. i already mentioned it itt but thats because it's probably my favorite book of all timePerry Mason Jar posted:We can only really strive to prove or disprove indeterminism, at least for now - you can't even begin to tackle Will without a thoroughgoing proof of consciousness at a minimum, so lmao. poo poo, there aren't even very good refutations of solipsism, you have to just shrug and keep it moving. this is such an interesting topic in the context of quantum uncertainty and our inability to pinpoint when/where the collapse to one definite state occurs, or whether it ever does at all. given our brains are the sum of an enormous number of potentially uncertain or undecided quantum events themselves, we can't say what the hell an "observer" actually is when it's enmeshed in the uncertainty of the events it's trying to measure. add to that the possibility of entanglement over non-trivial distances within the brain (faster than light communication of quantum events; ie spooky action at a distance) and i don't know how you even begin to approach the question of what will even is at a fundamental level.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 19:07
|
|
|
Hooplah posted:anyone itt interested in these questions of consciousness and reality should really seriously check out GEB by Douglas Hofstadter. i already mentioned it itt but thats because it's probably my favorite book of all time Haha, yeah. And you're only just hinting at superdeterminism, which is a total can of worms. I should read GEB, I was thinking about it (thinking about reading it) the other day.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 19:16
|
|
|
I can't believe I'm saying this, but... PULL UP EPSTEIN THREAD! PULL UUUUUUP!
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 19:17
|
|
|
mycomancy posted:I can't believe I'm saying this, but... thanks mod! I Am a Strange Loop was good too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_a_Strange_Loop Definitely on Epstein's bookshelf
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 19:21
|
|
|
Perry Mason Jar posted:Haha, yeah. And you're only just hinting at superdeterminism, which is a total can of worms. GEB is very good and long. feel free to skim some of the logic sections if you've taken a formal logic course before, but if you haven't it will teach you symbolic logic along the way for me, its right up there with SimEarth as far as brain shaping media goes
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 19:24
|
|
|
I've mentioned it here before but Klaus Theweleit's Male Fantasies should be mandatory reading. Talk about brain shaping.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 19:26
|
|
|
thanks for all the informed posting. the thread does not need to pull up imo. many enjoyers of the last few pages would like Anathem by Neal Stephenson imo. vilerat being a notorious poster probably means by itself SA is on some alphabet radars Ghislaine of YOSPOS has issued a correction as of 20:14 on Apr 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 20:11
|
|
|
nut posted:heard good things bout this thanks for this btw. If I get it (I probably will) I'll report back to the thread with the best bits
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 20:16
|
|
|
All these new posts about trolling and other wrecker poo poo, only one thing to be saidPerry Mason Jar posted:We need to free my mans Cuppy Tea who didn't do poo poo!!
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 21:02
|
|
|
Marzzle posted:for those of you in contact with the otherworldly spirit realm, here's the thing: you saying all this crazy poo poo about stuff you believe because you smoked a bunch of DMT discredits actual things that happen in the material world. your mere association with information about epstien gets regular people to automatically disbelieve it without looking any further. everyone knows you won't shut the hell up about machine elves once you get going and smattering that poo poo with true facts about epstien is how disinformation works. by tying all these things together in a single person with a questionable grasp on reality, organizations like the pedo cabal can operate in secrecy because the only people that believe it exists talk about it in between anecdotes about that time they got really hosed up in a robotrip and m a d e c o n t a c t Hey Marzzle, shut up. I made the DMT post. I was making a joke about G men trying to blackmail machine elves because the CIA was/is into that kind of thing. The fact that you're so defensive makes me think you need to spend some time offline with a therapist. Please. Do it for Jeffrey.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 21:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 02:40 |
|
|
I don't think the thread needs to pull up but I think this is unrelated enough and there's enough interest that it probably deserves its own thread. I know I'd read it. edit: i'm probably making some kind of statement about the topic by instinctually capitalizing "I"
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2021 21:15
|
|
