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tbh it would be more surprising if these huge rapidly organised carceral camps were effective and humane places of learning
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Apr 6, 2021 11:57
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KennyTheFish posted:Would you accept Amnesty Internationals reporting? because they have been very vocal about the issue. Which report should I read? I don’t always agree with Amnesty but I think they’re at least honest in their work
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Apr 6, 2021 11:57
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Chomskyan posted:For the same reason you wouldn’t read a report from a han nationalist group where a third of the sourcing comes from CGTN and RT. But I would  . I don't get why you wouldn't, unless you've already made your mind up to such a degree that there's no point.Chomskyan posted:What I push back on is the narrative that China is literally Nazi Germany and that the Uyghurs will cease to exist in a few years which was being argued a few pages ago. Was it? Daduzi fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Apr 6, 2021 |
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Apr 6, 2021 12:30
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Chomskyan posted:Ok, that article more or less aligns with what I’ve thought the camps to be. A ruthless attempt to re-educate suspected separatists. Obviously what happened to her was terrible. What about the others in the camps? And lol, "suspected separatists", the grounds for that are paper thin.
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Apr 6, 2021 12:31
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Daduzi posted:Was it? Haramstufe Rot posted:There’ll be no significant pushback. If at all, the West is angry that China did not do this genocide quietly and without so much fuss.
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Apr 6, 2021 12:40
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Chomskyan posted:Which report should I read? I don’t always agree with Amnesty but I think they’re at least honest in their work Here is their report from 2018 on the issue. they do tend to focus more on advocacy though. there is probably more on their website, but it sucks to search. https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/9113/2018/en/
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Apr 6, 2021 12:46
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The aim of the camps is absolutely to exterminate the Uyghur culture as it currently exists, what you're looking at is similar to policies done towards indigenous populations in North America, Australia and Scandinavia and many other countries. It is cultural genocide.
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Apr 6, 2021 12:48
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Oh right, missed that. Yeah, that's a bad take. I'll reconsider when my Uighur and Turkmen friends start getting put on special trains but until then, there'll still be Uighur's around. Life will just suck for those still stuck in Xinjiang.
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Apr 6, 2021 13:15
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I would very much appreciate more engagement on which media sources are more trustworthy than others than we have had so far today. yeah sry about that, i was gonna write a summary but it was my turn to drive for 4 hours. ill keep it in mind for future
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Apr 6, 2021 14:51
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anyway, i like grayzone because they publish sourced articles about stuff i dont get to even read about in my own language media. and because they are not compulsive liars like most of media
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Apr 6, 2021 14:53
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The BBC has had some very good on-the-ground reporting from Xinjiang. This piece in particular seems to not involve Zenz, if that's your primary objection.
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Apr 6, 2021 15:16
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Chomskyan posted:Ok, that article more or less aligns with what I’ve thought the camps to be. A ruthless attempt to re-educate suspected separatists. Obviously what happened to her was terrible. so would you agree that china treats the uighurs like how nazi germany treated jews, political dissidents, socialists and homosexuals from 1933 until about 1941, before the creation of death camps and the implementation of the final solution?
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Apr 6, 2021 15:34
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I think the Adrian Zenz stuff (which Grayzone mostly uncovered and publicised) is valuable, but also that Bad Empanada video's points about them are pretty much accurate. They are a source of news that's negative on the US and its allies - and sometimes that's valuable if you can separate the actual reporting from the chest-beating about how the Grayzone is being silenced by the MSM - but the site is also full of commentary that ties itself into knots trying to explain why if anything in one of their favoured countries seems like it might be a problem, it actually isn't, and even if it was, wouldn't it actually be fine? Example: I listened to an episode of their Red Lines podcast/interview show where the theme was "common criticisms the western left have of the Chinese government", the subtext being that all these criticisms were very silly and came from a position of ignorance. The structure of the episode was that the host would pitch softball questions at another talking head, who would give his line answering the problem. The question that really stood out to me was along the lines of: "Western leftists say China isn't democratic. What do you say to that?" The guest answers by going off on this spiel about how actually, the Chinese government's approval ratings are domestically very high, which means that the party must be ruling with the consent of the people - and isn't that democratic in its own way? If the people weren't happy, they'd do something about it, wouldn't they? That's basically a form of democracy, right? The host agrees, and they move on. Like, that feels like transparent propaganda-mongering. It's not a coherent argument, just a feel-good soundbite attempting to reassure people that they can support the CCP without sacrificing their fondness for democratic institutions. You can make an argument for why China's systems of governance are democratic, or you can say they're not democratic but actually the way they do things is fine, but just trying to appeal to a target demo of American and European lefties who have a fondness for democracy by implying that positive opinion polls are the same thing as elections is intellectually bankrupt.
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Apr 6, 2021 15:36
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Owlspiracy posted:so would you agree that china treats the uighurs like how nazi germany treated jews, political dissidents, socialists and homosexuals from 1933 until about 1941, before the creation of death camps and the implementation of the final solution? No, they're re-education camps like those that have appeared elsewhere in modern Chinese history
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Apr 6, 2021 16:14
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Chomskyan posted:No, they're re-education camps like those that have appeared elsewhere in modern Chinese history Does that "re-education" involve the intentional suppression/elimination of their culture/religion? If so how is that not cultural genocide?
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Apr 6, 2021 16:19
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Chomskyan posted:No, they're re-education camps like those that have appeared elsewhere in modern Chinese history Ah yes re-education camps, well known throughout history for not being horrific centers of mass abuse up to an including forced labor and torture.
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Apr 6, 2021 16:21
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brotha from anatha posted:anyway, i like grayzone because they publish sourced articles about stuff i dont get to even read about in my own language media. and because they are not compulsive liars like most of media That's not really a positive case for Grayzone though? This is kind of a circular argument, it's the same thing you were saying yesterday - all other media is bullshit. That you like Grayzone and have decided all other media are liars doesn't seem like a compelling case for why other posters should find them credible 
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Apr 6, 2021 16:23
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Does that "re-education" involve the suppression/elimination of their culture/religion? There's a range of things that could be happening and at one end of it would be cultural genocide. But what I see is a highly paranoid and ruthless response to separatism and jihadism, and a method that traces along the country's response to divergent ideologies in earlier eras of the PRC. I doubt it is intended to eliminate the Uyghurs as a group and as a culture.
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Apr 6, 2021 16:26
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Chomskyan posted:No, they're re-education camps like those that have appeared elsewhere in modern Chinese history God drat lol. That’s one hell of a take.
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Apr 6, 2021 16:29
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I do feel like we should take the opportunity to think about what we mean by genocide and perhaps come up with some more nuanced terminology, because there's obviously a hell of a lot of space between 'using force and intimidation to coerce people into learning Mandarin and acknowledging the legitimacy of the Beijing authorities in a way that (intentionally or inadvertently) disrupts and suppresses local culture' and 'literally marching people by their thousands into gas chambers, using fleeing children as target practice, and laughing as you murder babies horribly in front of their parents'. Drawing a false equivalence here is really dumb and it's impossible to actually discuss the topic when everyone means a different thing by the word, not to mention some people are obviously deliberatively using it to invoke the the emotive subtext of the holocaust for rhetorical purposes in a way that is sometimes, imo, quite cynical and exploitative.
ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Apr 6, 2021 |
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Apr 6, 2021 16:43
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Ah yes re-education camps, well known throughout history for not being horrific centers of mass abuse up to an including forced labor and torture. Yeah, they're bad. Still not Auschwitz (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 6, 2021 16:46
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Chomskyan posted:Yeah, they're bad. Still not Auschwitz The poster you originally responded to was explicitly not making a comparison to Auschwitz
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Apr 6, 2021 16:50
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Chomskyan posted:Yeah, they're bad. Still not Auschwitz Sure not yet. Lots of things happened before that.
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Apr 6, 2021 16:58
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Chomskyan posted:Yeah, they're bad. Still not Auschwitz I heard this defense, verbatim, of the US border interment camps and child separation policy. And the camps we're talking about are certifiably, through direct witness experience, worse than them in more ways to count.
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Apr 6, 2021 17:03
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MarcusSA posted:Sure not yet. Idk, it seems pretty unlikely. The Jews were identified with an all powerful (and simultaneously, pathetic) national enemy by the Nazi's in a way that I don't think ethnic minorities have been in China. It seems much more probable that the measures will be successful and slowly be wound down, leaving basically no authentic cultural identity or networks outside of sanctioned tourist events and productions. Minority cultures struggle to survive anyway in modern society, imagine how much faster they can disappear when the center actively works to destroy them. That's not to say that there isn't a death toll associated with mass incarceration, especially in a state which still practices capital punishment widely.
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Apr 6, 2021 17:15
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Kavros posted:I heard this defense, verbatim, of the US border interment camps and child separation policy. I think if you're going to post you should at least take the time to read what's been said. I'm responding to someone who is comparing China to Nazi Germany. I haven't defended the camps and you might have been able to surmise that from me saying they're bad.
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Apr 6, 2021 17:16
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Chomskyan posted:Yeah, they're bad. Still not Auschwitz My mother in law has literal physical scars and emotional trauma from her time in a “re-education” camp so, in the harshest tone I can. Go gently caress yourself you awful piece of tankie poo poo.
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Apr 6, 2021 17:16
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Chomskyan posted:I think if you're going to post you should at least take the time to read what's been said. I'm responding to someone who is comparing China to Nazi Germany. I haven't defended the camps and you might have been able to surmise that from me saying they're bad. Do you know the distinction between a "concentration camp" and a "death camp"?
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Apr 6, 2021 17:20
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Chomskyan posted:I think if you're going to post you should at least take the time to read what's been said. I'm responding to someone who is comparing China to Nazi Germany. I haven't defended the camps and you might have been able to surmise that from me saying they're bad. So if I’m understanding your stance you are just upset / offended that they are being compared to the really bad camps. Like what are you trying to argue? You said they are bad. You are just offended people are making them “worse than they really are”?
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Apr 6, 2021 17:23
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Owlspiracy posted:Do you know the distinction between a "concentration camp" and a "death camp"? The damning part is that the Nazis had the exact same idea. Up until the allies were definitely winning the war German concentration camps centered their activities on stuff like imprisonment, destruction of culture, mass sterilization programs, and of course awful treatment of prisoners as the means to make the genocide happen - while simultaneously exploiting the prisoners as much as possible with everything from slave labor to human medical experimentation. Auschwitz was a labor camp before it was an extermination camp. Once it looked like the prisoners might be freed, that's when things shifted definitively to mass murder to ensure the genocide would be successful before that happened. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Apr 6, 2021 |
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Apr 6, 2021 17:29
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Warbadger posted:The damning part is that the Nazis had the exact same idea. Up until the allies were definitely winning the war German concentration camps relied on stuff like destruction of culture and sterilization programs as the means to make the genocide happen while simultaneously exploiting the prisoners as much as possible with everything from slave labor to human medical experimentation. Right, and if the CCP had previously identified Uyghur people in particular as a specific threat in themselves, whose very identity was a stain on China and who needed to be eradicated, you'd be 100% right. Hitler openly stood on a platform of 'gently caress the Jews, lets kill them, and the rest of the subhumans too' and anyone paying attention knew how it would end once he got power, the only surprise was the sheer streamlined industrial horror of it as opposed to occasional incitement to pogroms of the kind European countries did periodically throughout history. Eradicating and/or enslaving Jews and other racial 'inferiors' was an absolutely integral part of Nazi race science and the entire ideological frame the whole state operated according to. Notwithstanding anything else there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that oppression of Uyghurs or any other perceived racial minority has ever been part of the ideology of the Chinese state, or that Chinese interests in Xinjiang go any further than ensuring the country's territorial integrity by whatever means necessary. 'Whatever means necessary' leaves a lot of room for awful awful stuff in an authoritarian police state, of course, but drawing an equivalence with 1930s Germany is just historically illiterate. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Apr 6, 2021 |
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Apr 6, 2021 17:53
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ThomasPaine posted:Right, and if the CCP had previously identified Uyghur people in particular as a specific threat in themselves, whose very identity was a stain on China and who needed to be eradicated, you'd be 100% right. Hitler openly stood on a platform of 'gently caress the Jews, lets kill them, and the rest of the subhumans too' and anyone paying attention knew how it would end once he got power, the only surprise was the sheer streamlined industrial horror of it as opposed to occasional incitement to pogroms of the kind European countries did periodically throughout history. Eradicating and/or enslaving Jews and other racial 'inferiors' was an absolutely integral part of Nazi race science and the entire ideological frame the whole state operated according to. Given the CCP threw them into concentration camps akin to Nazi concentration camps - have you considered that the CCP actually has identified the Uighur people as a specific threat?
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Apr 6, 2021 17:57
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ThomasPaine posted:Right, and if the CCP had previously identified Uyghur people in particular as a specific threat in themselves, whose very identity was a stain on China and who needed to be eradicated, you'd be 100% right. China has an active campaign to eliminate an islamic ethnic culture from inside it's borders. This is highly published including public statements by the Chinese government on how they've saved the women from being broodwives. I believe they have expressly said everything you're mentioning here.
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Apr 6, 2021 17:59
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Come on guys, CCPs ideological stance towards Uyghurs is not akin to historic Nazi ideological stance towards Jews. I mean Godwin's law and all, but this is getting ridiculous. It is very possible to discuss the fuckery happening to the Uyghur people without this kind of prose.
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Apr 6, 2021 18:03
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Mr. Nice! posted:China has an active campaign to eliminate an islamic ethnic culture from inside it's borders. This is highly published including public statements by the Chinese government on how they've saved the women from being broodwives. Also worth pointing out that said policies do not differentiate between "Islamic" Uighurs and non-Islamic. Like, they're not just incentivizing Uighur women to marry Han men or stationing Han dudes in their homes if said women practice Islam.
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Apr 6, 2021 18:05
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ThomasPaine posted:I do feel like we should take the opportunity to think about what we mean by genocide and perhaps come up with some more nuanced terminology, because there's obviously a hell of a lot of space between 'using force and intimidation to coerce people into learning Mandarin and acknowledging the legitimacy of the Beijing authorities in a way that (intentionally or inadvertently) disrupts and suppresses local culture' and 'literally marching people by their thousands into gas chambers, using fleeing children as target practice, and laughing as you murder babies horribly in front of their parents'. Drawing a false equivalence here is really dumb and it's impossible to actually discuss the topic when everyone means a different thing by the word, not to mention some people are obviously deliberatively using it to invoke the the emotive subtext of the holocaust for rhetorical purposes in a way that is sometimes, imo, quite cynical and exploitative. There are countless native tribes in the United States that are functionally extinct. Their languages are forgotten or only spoken by a handful of elders, their history and traditions are all-but forgotten, and their ancestral lands paved over with asphalt and picket fences. Many tribes were directly killed by european diseases or white settlers—but not all. Throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, native tribes in the Americas were devestated by assimilation policies designed explicitly to wipe out their native culture and heritage. Children were taken from their parents and educated in boarding schools where they were abused, forced to speak only english, and kept from learning about their heritage and traditions. And though the process was slow, it was sure: languages died out. Traditions were forgotten. Entire cultures withered away, living only in the memories of tribal elders or the pages of anthropological textbooks. And even though the deliberate policy of "Kill the Indian, save the man" is no longer practiced, its effects are still ongoing—as of today, there are only 47 native speakers of the Oneida language. 24 of the Haida language. And, with the death of Alfred Chalepah, Jr in 2008, the Plains Apache language is extinct. Genocide isn't just about "killing a lot of people." It's about destroying a culture, erasing entire ways of life from the face of the planet. It's an utterly monstrous act, and though the holocaust is the most famous example, it is not the only example. The terminology is perfectly clear—it is only those who deny what is happening that are confused.
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Apr 6, 2021 18:05
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Dante80 posted:Come on guys, CCPs ideological stance towards Uyghurs is not akin to historic Nazi ideological stance towards Jews. I mean you could compare it to the treatment of North American indigenous people (residential schools, etc...) which is still pretty genocidey.
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Apr 6, 2021 18:08
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Here is a more interesting question for the thread imo. Should the CCP be pressured by the international community about what is happening to the Uyghurs? Sanctioned? If not, why?
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Apr 6, 2021 18:08
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Dante80 posted:Come on guys, CCPs ideological stance towards Uyghurs is not akin to historic Nazi ideological stance towards Jews. ok, provide some specific differences in their treatment of the uyghur people and the nazis treatment of jews prior to '41, particularly jews that lived in germany and austria
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Apr 6, 2021 18:10
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:I mean you could compare it to the treatment of North American indigenous people (residential schools, etc...) which is still pretty genocidey. Sure you can. That is still not what Hitler was going for in Mein Kampf towards the Jews. Owlspiracy posted:ok, provide some specific differences in their treatment of the uyghur people and the nazis treatment of jews prior to '41, particularly jews that lived in germany and austria Most of this doesn't exist in this circumstance. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/antisemitic-legislation-1933-1939
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Apr 6, 2021 18:10
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