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Owlspiracy posted:I dunno why you’d type up hundreds of words refuting a claim nobody has made - that China is committing genocide outside of a specific area, or that assimilationist policies are always genocidal - while adding caveats that this doesn’t apply to one area where genocide is happening. I mean, no poo poo? The discussion about other minority groups arose because people were arguing that of course it can’t be genocide because China loves minority groups! And it turns out the only love minority groups as long as they never agitate for sovereignty and by “love” you mean “still pressure them to assimilate”. If you want to quibble about the level of forced assimilation that amounts to genocide go for it, I firmly believe that when people are being arrested and detained based on their ethnicity or belief system that we are way past any quibbling. there was a turn in the conversation towards chinese minority policy in general, with a reference to language extinction and an imo pretty clear connection to the idea of genocide as the murder of a people, so i thought it was a useful distinction to make idk what the rest of your post is about, i don't think i've ever suggested that any country loves minorities, let alone china
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Apr 7, 2021 15:51
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This all does beg the question of why exactly China does care so much about holding on Xinjiang. Is it particularly important to them economically? Would they stop being the power they are without it? Looking at a map I highly doubt it. Or is it the precedent that it would set towards other regions they worry may be getting ideas? I certainly wonder whether it may have been more savvy for them to give it a huge amount of autonomy and full religious/cultural freedoms (including or just short of formal independence) while retaining it firmly within Beijing's sphere of influence. The Hong Kong/Macau approach, maybe.
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Apr 7, 2021 15:57
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Greg12 posted:Which is to say, if you're hopping mad and ready to drop bombs about this and not the genocides our allies are doing, think about why that might be. Because I live in China and know people who've been personally affected by the campaign? Do I win a prize?
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Apr 7, 2021 16:02
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The process of state creation is also interesting when you think about the examples of what some states do to themselves (in addition to other groups within their borders). While targeting the Ainu and the native Okinawans, Japan also thoroughly swept aside the old order and its own culture while reappropriating parts of it to embrace modernization. Turkey is similar, in addition to targeting the Kurds, acts like banning the Fez and maintaining a secular state; the cultural revolution in China, a lot of elements of targeting the knife at your own neck to cut off aspects of their own culture the leadership at the time considered to be holding them back. To varying results.ThomasPaine posted:This all does beg the question of why exactly China does care so much about holding on Xinjiang. Is it particularly important to them economically? Would they stop being the power they are without it? Looking at a map I highly doubt it. Or is it the precedent that it would set towards other regions they worry may be getting ideas? I certainly wonder whether it may have been more savvy for them to give it a huge amount of autonomy and full religious/cultural freedoms (including or just short of formal independence) while retaining it firmly within Beijing's sphere of influence. The Hong Kong/Macau approach, maybe. Geopolitically as with all empires its primarily about maintaining other empires at arms length. It puts the border between them and say, Russia/Russian sphere much further than if they were up against core han territory. Much like Rome owned large swaths of territory not necessarily because it provided an income but because it kept others further away. Also it would make the borders extremely ugly and probably threaten their hold on Tibet, which is needed for fresh water. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Apr 7, 2021 |
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Apr 7, 2021 16:04
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ThomasPaine posted:This all does beg the question of why exactly China does care so much about holding on Xinjiang. Is it particularly important to them economically? Would they stop being the power they are without it? Looking at a map I highly doubt it. It's worth remembering that China went to war with the Soviet Union over this island. They take territory seriously. ThomasPaine posted:Or is it the precedent that it would set towards other regions they worry may be getting ideas? I certainly wonder whether it may have been more savvy for them to give it a huge amount of autonomy and full religious/cultural freedoms (including or just short of formal independence) while retaining it firmly within Beijing's sphere of influence. The Hong Kong/Macau approach, maybe. Yeah, that's not really this regime's approach to things. See for example: Hong Kong and Macau. Basically you're seeing what pretty much always happens in China when you get a regime determined to centralise power. A removal of latitude for local authorities, and a whole lot of crushing of any groups who offer any (even incidental) resistance.
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Apr 7, 2021 16:12
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ThomasPaine posted:This all does beg the question of why exactly China does care so much about holding on Xinjiang. Is it particularly important to them economically? Would they stop being the power they are without it? Looking at a map I highly doubt it. Or is it the precedent that it would set towards other regions they worry may be getting ideas? I certainly wonder whether it may have been more savvy for them to give it a huge amount of autonomy and full religious/cultural freedoms (including or just short of formal independence) while retaining it firmly within Beijing's sphere of influence. The Hong Kong/Macau approach, maybe. It's a mix of both trade (Xinjiang is the gateway to the BRI going out to Europe), vulnerability (it presents another unaligned force on their doorstep, especially one likely to become an Islamic state) and precedent (domino theory applied to Tibet and Hong Kong).
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Apr 7, 2021 16:52
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ThomasPaine posted:This all does beg the question of why exactly China does care so much about holding on Xinjiang. Is it particularly important to them economically? Would they stop being the power they are without it? Looking at a map I highly doubt it. Xinjiang holds the land border to Kazakhstan, an incredibly important nation to the CCP: 1. Geopolitically, it being a regional power squeezed between Russian and Chinese sphere's of influence 2. Economically, it being the pivotal piece in China's New Silk Road China finds itself squeezed from all sides by Russia, India and NATO. Xinjiang plays a key role in their vision of how to alleviate this.
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Apr 7, 2021 17:10
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There's also the fact that China's been playing chicken with India and muddling around in the ocean trying to push its borders outward. They're pretty ambitious about territorial claims against other countries, so they're not gonna back down when their own citizens raise a fuss.Greg12 posted:As someone who only has power over my own elected representatives I mean, as someone who theoretically has powers over my own elected representatives, I'd sure want other peoples of the world to have some kind of control over their own government as well. Or at least the basic security to live their own lives freely.
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Apr 7, 2021 17:27
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SlothfulCobra posted:There's also the fact that China's been playing chicken with India and muddling around in the ocean trying to push its borders outward. They're pretty ambitious about territorial claims against other countries, so they're not gonna back down when their own citizens raise a fuss. I'd be shocked if we don't have a land war between India and China in my lifetime.
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Apr 7, 2021 17:36
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ThomasPaine posted:This all does beg the question of why exactly China does care so much about holding on Xinjiang. Is it particularly important to them economically? Would they stop being the power they are without it? Looking at a map I highly doubt it. Or is it the precedent that it would set towards other regions they worry may be getting ideas? I certainly wonder whether it may have been more savvy for them to give it a huge amount of autonomy and full religious/cultural freedoms (including or just short of formal independence) while retaining it firmly within Beijing's sphere of influence. The Hong Kong/Macau approach, maybe. how'd you get that from a map? Xinjiang is its gateway to Central Asia and a route for oil that doesn't behoove it to Russia or the US Seventh Fleet. In a fit of terrible historical irony, it is now its turn to be the only one oil-dependent whilst both of the other two turn into net oil exporters. China is fully aware that nationalist rebellions reduced the base of the mighty Soviet Baltic fleet to an exclave surrounded by soon-NATO powers and then cut off its Black Sea ports for good measure ronya fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Apr 7, 2021 |
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Apr 7, 2021 19:07
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SlothfulCobra posted:
What will you do, then? Owlspiracy posted:Sometimes things exist independent of the United States. But I don't, and 350,000,000 others don't, either. The ghouls who frame our discussions and the breadth of our possible actions are emphasizing China's genocide/not-a-genocide while downplaying those of our allies. And, we're the country that has a record of squandering trillions of dollars on arms, doing coups, arming the mujahideen, and funding the people planning the Uygher Bay of Pigs (did you not bother to click that link?). I get it. Maybe you're from Sweden and you have strong opinions on your government's regulation of IKEA investments in particleboard factories. I live in the exceptional country with a population that feared the yellow peril before the phrase existed, where the press is best friends with the imperial state, that has an all-war-criminal administration, a legislature that's half in the bag for the arms industry, and an elite that has been drumming up "the next cold war" with China for the last 25 years. I have strong opinions on that.
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Apr 7, 2021 19:15
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Greg12 posted:But I don't This thread is not about you. Greg12 posted:I get it. Maybe you're from Sweden and you have strong opinions on your government's regulation of IKEA investments in particleboard factories. I live in the exceptional country with a population that feared the yellow peril before the phrase existed, where the press is best friends with the imperial state, that has an all-war-criminal administration, a legislature that's half in the bag for the arms industry, and an elite that has been drumming up "the next cold war" with China for the last 25 years. I have strong opinions on that. This is one of the most imperious, American exceptionalist attitudes I have ever seen on this forum. You are literally implying that the only people whose opinions matter are Americans. It's the kind of bullshit I'd expect from mid-2000's neoconservative rhetoric, so great job being a living embodiment of horseshoe theory. Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Apr 7, 2021 |
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Apr 7, 2021 19:19
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Talking about bad things that China is doing is not warmongering. It's not even cold-warmongering, whatever that would entail. Nobody's talking about staging an invasion. The most I could see happening is some international sanctions or encouraging companies to stop directly enabling China in their forms of oppression, which could actually have more of a chance of getting the Chinese government to stop than the lack of approval from their own population. But that hasn't really stopped Russia, so mostly there's not really any active solutions people outside of China can push for, and it's probably much more perilous for people inside China to make a stand. Not every conversation is about encouraging activism or engineering solutions, and that's fine for an internet forum.
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Apr 7, 2021 20:11
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Greg12 posted:What will you do, then? so your argument is that because some people might use china committing a genocide to promote an anti-china agenda - or that even bad people might also agree that china is committing a genocide - that we should just never talk about it? are you for real? there is no harm in pointing out the bad things china does in a post on somethingawful (or really, anywhere, unless you're a chinese citizen, then you might be jailed for your criticism). your post has insane boomer 'this isn't the time or place' energy.
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Apr 7, 2021 20:37
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There is a certain sect of political people whose confidence in their assessment of US foreign policy is matched only by their ignorance of any matter that doesn't directly pertain to the USA, which is how you get people who earnestly believe that talking about the Uigher genocide is laying groundwork for some kind of Cuba or Iraq-esque regime change operation as though the People's Republic of China isn't a massive, nuclear armed continental power with the world's largest standing army and second-largest economy. Not even the sweatiest right-wing American warhawk thinks that they can walk into Beijing and arrest Xi and that all they're missing is the domestic political support to do so.
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Apr 7, 2021 20:49
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ronya posted:how'd you get that from a map? Xinjiang is its gateway to Central Asia and a route for oil that doesn't behoove it to Russia or the US Seventh Fleet. In a fit of terrible historical irony, it is now its turn to be the only one oil-dependent whilst both of the other two turn into net oil exporters. Yeah this was a very superficial glance that admittedly concentrated on population and industrial development which is a pretty limited perspective! Yeah, when you break it down and bring up the international aspects it's very obvious.
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Apr 7, 2021 23:14
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Fojar38 posted:There is a certain sect of political people whose confidence in their assessment of US foreign policy is matched only by their ignorance of any matter that doesn't directly pertain to the USA, which is how you get people who earnestly believe that talking about the Uigher genocide is laying groundwork for some kind of Cuba or Iraq-esque regime change operation as though the People's Republic of China isn't a massive, nuclear armed continental power with the world's largest standing army and second-largest economy. We're working very hard on re-animating the corpse of MacArthur, should be ready by the time Republicans are in the White House again
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Apr 8, 2021 00:33
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Fojar38 posted:This is one of the most imperious, American exceptionalist attitudes I have ever seen on this forum. You are literally implying that the only people whose opinions matter are Americans. I saw his point as being that America is in a unique position to either unilaterally engage in military intervention or drive international consensus to do so. You referencing the mid-2000 time period is evidence for that point.
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Apr 8, 2021 02:47
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Stringent posted:I saw his point as being that America is in a unique position to either unilaterally engage in military intervention or drive international consensus to do so. Unique in the sense there's a 0.005% chance of it occurring as opposed to a 0.0001% chance?
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Apr 8, 2021 05:27
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Daduzi posted:Unique in the sense there's a 0.005% chance of it occurring as opposed to a 0.0001% chance? what do you mean by this?
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Apr 8, 2021 06:30
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fart simpson posted:what do you mean by this? There is no plausible way that the United States or any international coalition is going to war with China over the Uyghurs.
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Apr 8, 2021 06:39
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Acebuckeye13 posted:There is no plausible way that the United States or any international coalition is going to war with China over the Uyghurs. Yeah, this
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Apr 8, 2021 06:43
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Acebuckeye13 posted:There is no plausible way that the United States or any international coalition is going to war with China over the Uyghurs. well yes, the united states doesn’t care about the uyghurs
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Apr 8, 2021 06:44
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fart simpson posted:well yes, the united states doesn’t care about the uyghurs Exactly.
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Apr 8, 2021 07:07
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it's pretty clear that there's an emerging consensus in the US that they want to contain china in various ways. i agree that a shooting war is very unlikely, but we're seeing trial runs of sanctions over xinjiang, and it wouldn't surprise me to see proxy conflicts start popping off in central asia and/or east africa the reason the US is talking about the uighurs is very clearly opportunistic to this geopolitical concerns. this does not necessarily mean that they're entirely wrong, of course
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Apr 8, 2021 09:30
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The US doesn’t give a poo poo about Uighurs because they are Muslims. If it weren’t for Uighurs, the US would find another beef with China. It doesn’t take an IQ of 149 to get that the problem between US and China aint that the latter is killing Muslims, lmao. Which however shows that one absolutely must criticize China for the genocide it is committing. Because whatever the ’support‘ of the US amounts to now (my guess is, not much), it’s gonna be poof gone as soon as the political situation changes somewhat. So here is the hint for CCP friends who never get tired to immediately bring the US into the discussion: People who genuinely care about the Uighur genocide probably have nothing to do with the US propaganda and this explicitly includes the thousands of eyewitnesses. So even if the US produces fake propaganda pieces, this does not mean all information about the genocide is fake. What’s more, these people are more likely to be on a CIA hitlist for being Muslim than buddies with the state department. Genocide is a perfectly valid reason to hate the CCP, and does not imply one likes anything about the US. If you open your eyes to which ethnicities with which religion have gotten got thus century, then you might notice a pattern. And if you think further about the US involvements and treatment of this group, then you will see that the insinuation that all informers here are US agents is not only insulting, it is downright insane. In fact, the cynical use of US propagandists of this issue probably hurts the Uighurs greatly, since they lose their voice vis a vis anyone who hates the US. So if you had any human decency as all, you would not try to dismiss any evidence as US propaganda but rather try to see that behind all this is a real problem and a real cause, which is to stop the genocide of Uighurs in China. And I am also sorry if accepting this somehow destroys the illusion that China is the magical Marxist happy place that will lead us towards salvation. But the reality is that Muslims are now crushed between not one, not two, but all three geopolitical superpowers and let me also say that in all these cases, it’s not a matter of terrorism but rather bona fide racism. Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Apr 8, 2021 |
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Apr 8, 2021 10:07
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new Re-Education just dropped on the events in Xinjiang https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BChTyHFqcV8 since the author is an ancom, this video will undoubtedly piss off everyone but the anarchists itt, but I found it pretty balanced and good on the whole, and well worth an hour of your time
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Apr 8, 2021 23:13
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Venomous posted:new Re-Education just dropped on the events in Xinjiang could you give a tl;dr please? especially if it's something you think is going to piss most of the thread off... After that Bad Empanada video on Grayzone I summarized, youtube took me to an hour and twenty or so video of his take on the Uighur situation which I found informative. Interestingly, Bad Empanada uses mostly the Chinese gov'ts own official releases and information plus some of the eyewitness testimony and doesn't reference any US outlets at all. Honestly I'm not keen on watching the Re-Education video you linked simply because glancing the sources they cite it's an awful lot of other youtube videos and wikipedia links (plus a few news outlets, yes). I could do a quick bullet point run-down of the Bad Empanada analysis but that would take a couple hours I don't have right now. edit: oh! One of the interesting things that Empanada pointed out was that while Adrian Zenz himself is not a very reliable source, he employed a bunch of Mandarin-speaking assistants (interns?) to comb through tons of local-level Chinese gov't documents which is actually incredibly useful for understanding the situation.
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Apr 8, 2021 23:29
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I got as far as him saying "Shin Jeong, China". If you don't speak Chinese or Uyghur or know much about China why make a video about it. He links to his patreon and shills "anarchist merch". Ah, that's why he made the video.
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Apr 9, 2021 00:40
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The fact that people arent dying in a mass holocaust is why the US doesnt care. nor does the rest of most of the world. Its a lot easier to swallow a re-eduction / cultural erasure as the US and Britain did that all the loving time.
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Apr 9, 2021 00:51
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:The fact that people arent dying in a mass holocaust is why the US doesnt care. nor does the rest of most of the world. Its a lot easier to swallow a re-eduction / cultural erasure as the US and Britain did that all the loving time. Cool take. Anything to support it?
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Apr 9, 2021 02:13
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Not sure why the US government not "really" caring means that nobody else can "really" care either. It's almost like some posters main concerns have nothing to do with China but rather with the US gaining a diplomatic advantage over the PRC due to the latters poor behavior
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Apr 9, 2021 02:25
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Rabelais D posted:He links to his patreon and shills "anarchist merch". I need something like CEO of Anarchist International Merchandising, Incorporated to exist
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Apr 9, 2021 02:31
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Fojar38 posted:Not sure why the US government not "really" caring means that nobody else can "really" care either. It's almost like some posters main concerns have nothing to do with China but rather with the US gaining a diplomatic advantage over the PRC due to the latters poor behavior I think it's telling that in some of these posts the word "China" does not even appear. We get it guys: you've discovered US foreign policy is lovely and really want to share this amazing discovery with the world. There's other places you can do so where it would be more germane, however.
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Apr 9, 2021 02:31
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Daduzi posted:Cool take. Anything to support it? I mean we're completely fine with having migrants in border camps. We ran out own "indian reeducation" as did commonwealth nations by abducting native kids and sending them to "boarding schools". It's the pot calling the kettle black in too many ways.
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Apr 9, 2021 05:49
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I mean we're completely fine with having migrants in border camps. many people, up to and including the president, have said they’re upset by this and the situation is unacceptable. do you have a source showing that we’re “fine” with it?
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Apr 9, 2021 05:51
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I mean we're completely fine with having migrants in border camps. We ran out own "indian reeducation" as did commonwealth nations by abducting native kids and sending them to "boarding schools". cool whataboutism, how is it relevant to discussion of the situation for Uighurs in China other than to point out that the US has also done similarly bad things (a fact which no one is denying)?
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Apr 9, 2021 06:21
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No guys, it's just like how non Western countries can't be criticised if they want to run their economy on coal power plants because historically Western nations did that and any attempt to enforce emissions standards is pulling up the ladder behind us imperialism 2.0. Likewise since Western nations have conducted cultural genocides, China and other developing countries must be permitted to wipe out indigenous peoples within their own Imperial borders in the hopes that in a century when Uyghurs exist only as a mansion speaking minority they can argue what degree of Uyghur blood means you can qualify for extra points on the Gaokao. Or alternatively we should be trying to learn from the effects poo poo like those reduction centres had in the west and discourage China from engaging in those same practices. My personal politics would say that there must be some political accommodation that can sustain strong regional identities within a national/supra national framework that doesn't require political or physical coercion. I can understand the instinct to cite the historic bad acts of Western countries in response but it's bizarre to me, if the argument is meant in good faith, why that doesn't spur the realisation that we clearly know what the effects of this are going to be and we don't like them. Unless of course this posters think that the cultural genocides of indigenous peoples was crucial to establishing a unified national identity in the US or Australia and that eventual good is great enough to outweigh the harm. The only other reason would be I guess if the people criticising China for this were also praising the historical genocides in their own Western nations. If any posters calling out the current Uyghur identity erasure do think the forced adoption of indigenous peoples, etc. Was an overall good/necessity, I'd appreciate anyone able to point it out.
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Apr 9, 2021 06:55
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I mean political science and history is very clear here on forming geographically large unitary states (even de-centralized ones such as China) without committing genocide and repressing swathes of your population. You don't. There are reasons almost all modern large nations are federations of one kind or another. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 12:24
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I mean we're completely fine with having migrants in border camps. We ran out own "indian reeducation" as did commonwealth nations by abducting native kids and sending them to "boarding schools". I was really looking for support for the claim that "The fact that people arent dying in a mass holocaust is why the US doesnt care. nor does the rest of most of the world." As in, testimony, studies etc. Basically something more than a really intense conversation you had with your weed dealer.
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Apr 9, 2021 13:22
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