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Any of our resident nordies have anything to say about whats happening up above?
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Apr 8, 2021 20:52
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I think everyone has been expecting stuff to kick off in terms of rioting for a couple of months tbh considering the general tension over the protocol / coronavirus restrictions. Probably got a day or two yet before it peaks and the older heads directing things decide a enough of a point has been made for the time being. Personally I thought we'd get to July for a summer of Flag Protests 2.0
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Apr 8, 2021 21:39
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To be honest I always thought it would be the other side burning out buses by now. Thought Boris would air drop in a few thousand troops to set up the border check points Jan 1st, and bring back the good old days of having to wait an hour or two at the irish border. Until a 'technical solution' appears. Its hard to see what they loyalists can do next really after this. Who do they attack really. Can see Arlene being toppled by the DUP, the more extreme side could see this as a way to energize and try to push her out. Most probably will be a summer of protest like kustom said, lots more pant making GBS threads by destroying their own areas. And with a lot of smearing of the EU. A lot of demands but no actual solutions.
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Apr 8, 2021 22:20
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Is there anything to be said for another Love Ulster parade through Dublin?
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Apr 8, 2021 22:35
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Watching it from Dublin it feels like the northern Republicans have realised that the best thing to do to make the DUP look bad is give Arlene Foster a chance to talk and are content to just sit quiet-ish.
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Apr 8, 2021 23:13
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so who's the worst possible DUP politician that could replace Arlene Foster? I mean, yeah, they're all terrible, but surely there's a particular fascist in their ranks who would absolutely galvanise the loyalists and make things far worse than they are right now
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Apr 8, 2021 23:31
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The most likely worst candidate to replace Foster is Edwin Poots who is more of a traditional bible loving Paisleyite, Foster is associated with the more moderate business-friendly "let's get the middle class to vote for us" grouping associated with former leader Peter Robinson that tried to modernize the party to be the big party of Unionism by backing down from the actual biblical blood and thunder stuff. Apart from Poots the only other real candidate is probably Jeffrey Donaldson who is broadly from the same background as Foster but a good bit more to the right of her, still preferable to Poots. I'm not sure the DUP really has anyone that will get the Loyalists on board though, old school Paisleyite politics always had a limited appeal with actual Loyalists as it has a whole moral superiority to it and Poots is steeped in a very old school style. Poots would swing right to appease the Loyalists, in the process alienating the garden centre unionists Robinson won over to the DUP from the UUP (and who are increasingly eyeing up Alliance), but he's never going to win them over fully. The actual worst option would probably be Gregory Campbell who actually has a bigger pull with Loyalists but even the DUP aren't thick enough to let him run the party, they barely let him on TV anymore because every time he opens his mouth he pretty much tries to personally offend as many people as possible.
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Apr 8, 2021 23:48
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Is there any realistic scenario where the DUP doesn't just slowly corncob
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Apr 9, 2021 08:03
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Failed Imagineer posted:Is there any realistic scenario where the DUP doesn't just slowly corncob I don't know about 'realistic', but I can imagine a remotely plausible scenario where – bear with me here – the 337,000 shitheads who voted for either them or the UUP in the last general continue to exist
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Apr 9, 2021 10:39
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Yeah, I do get that Unionism exists, but KKK laid out a pretty clear case for why DUP don't have a lot of great paths forward
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Apr 9, 2021 11:00
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Southpaugh posted:Any of our resident nordies have anything to say about whats happening up above? i just needed to let off a bit of steam and i'd had those fireworks so long they were at risk of going damp, okay  really though, it was all depressingly inevitable, this poo poo is just by the numbers crispix fucked around with this message at 11:27 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 11:25
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Failed Imagineer posted:Yeah, I do get that Unionism exists, but KKK laid out a pretty clear case for why DUP don't have a lot of great paths forward I don't see their current predicament as unique or unprecedented. The vast majority of DUP politicians with any profile at all have been lumpy uncharismatic dull bigots with only slightly more appeal to loyalists than a turnip painted like the Union Jack. And yet.
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Apr 9, 2021 11:36
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Tbf I did say "slowly". Anyway, hope there's some respectful tributes to Big Phil up north tonight
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Apr 9, 2021 12:39
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It's not like the Loyalist vote is going anywhere apart from the DUP, the advantage of having a +100 year old electoral rule of "you must vote for the unionists to keep the fenians out" means that come election time they will angrily vote for the DUP yet again as the party continues to ignore social deprivation and urban regeneration. Mainstream Unionism has always kept working class Loyalism at an arms distance so you're never really going to get a hand in glove relationship, the DUP is more keen to placate them (historically to try to make themselves relevant when they where the party of crazy losers) but it's still not really a 1:1 relationship. Loyalism doesn't protest at the ballot box because that would let the Sinn Fein/IRA/Alliance Pan-Republican Conspiracy win, it does it by setting things on fire and chucking bricks at Nigel Dodds and themmuns over the wall who are really to blame. Already seen some people sharing around facebook posts calling off planned events for this evening but whether or not those events themselves where ever real was a bit of an argument. kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 14:01
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SuperiorColliculus posted:Does reopening services to the fully vaccinated before everyone has been offered a chance to get the vaccine seem like a recipe for disaster to anyone else? It's the thing I've been dreading since Christmas tbh, I might get to skip a bit of it depending on which industries count as services though. I wouldn't mind being fully vaccinated before goin back to work, especially because I was working on the nose and mouth area almost exclusively so it's bad enough, but I'm still not over feeling nervous going to work every day worried that I'd have to lock someone out for not following any saftey shite at all, AGAIN. I think I'd feel a bit better In the UK my little segment (hairdressing, piercing, tattoos all that) are back to work already and I think it's loving crazy
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Apr 9, 2021 14:20
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Failed Imagineer posted:Tbf I did say "slowly". Arlene now has a conundrum. After months of calling out SInn Fein going to funerals during a pandemic, she has to now go to Big Phils.
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Apr 9, 2021 14:26
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kustomkarkommando posted:It's not like the Loyalist vote is going anywhere apart from the DUP, 
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Apr 9, 2021 14:39
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:a turnip painted like the Union Jack. 
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Apr 9, 2021 14:47
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Once the TUV discovers how to clone big Jim they might be in with a chance, however I'm sure immediately after that happens it would splinter into dozens of breakaway parties as Jim shouts at himself
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Apr 9, 2021 14:57
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kustomkarkommando posted:Mainstream Unionism has always kept working class Loyalism at an arms distance
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Apr 9, 2021 19:05
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Arquinsiel posted:Is there a formal difference between "Unionism" and "Loyalism"? I could start guessing but since this is the first time I've noticed this usage difference I don't feel confident about getting it right. The "Formal" difference is Unionists would say they believe in the United Kingdom, and so are firm believers in the Act of Union. Loyalism is loyal to The Crown (at least that's how it was always explained to me.) The actual difference is Unionism will generally point in a particular direction and Loyalists will be the ones throwing stones (and more) in that direction. Then there's a lot in between with people basing their definition on family history and personal ties, along with class issues and all the associated problems, but when it comes up in terms of riots it's Loyalists who'd be "on the streets" while Unionists would still be tying up swings for Sunday service.
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Apr 9, 2021 19:48
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I wonder how the Loyalists up here will restart the kerfuffle after the Duk is buried; Arlene blowing on a whistle or a slow wind up to setting Larne ablaze (a man can dream). 
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Apr 9, 2021 20:11
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Arquinsiel posted:Is there a formal difference between "Unionism" and "Loyalism"? I could start guessing but since this is the first time I've noticed this usage difference I don't feel confident about getting it right. There's a debate about how you define the difference but broadly Unionism is the political movement that believes Northern Ireland should remain in the United Kingdom while Loyalism is more concerned with remaining loyal to Ulster (used to mean the protestant nation), the loyal subjects of the Queen. Loyalists are Unionists but a subset of them, a significant percentage of Unionists are basically just Tories who aggressively do not identify as Loyalists. There's a class dimension to it as well with Unionism classically directed from the top by the socially higher classes preserving the status quo and Loyalism as a grass-roots working class movement concerned primarily with protecting their privileges from disloyalists and demanding better treatment for loyal citizens (in some areas it did kind of adopt trade unionist demands about better living conditions and the like and by the 90s a bunch of Loyalist ex-prisoners where openly advancing left leaning readings attacking the Unionist governments of the past for sowing the seeds of the troubles through their distant haughty arrogance and deliberate manipulations of the working class). They worked together pretty comfortably but people only really started considering them distinct things in reaction to how the troubles progressed when you started to see paramilitaries form distinct from the state apparatus with open contempt for conventional Unionist politicians and the political machine that defined NI from it's inception. Things like the ulster workers council strike in 74 when grass roots loyalists mobilized support (and threatened people to support ) to collapse the sunningdale power sharing government are generally considered important splitting points where a street movement outside of the control of the Unionist political establishment dictated it's terms from below. As things got on it gets a bit wackier, Loyalists played around with ideas like having NI declare itself an independent country with the queen as the monarch in reaction to what they saw as the British government selling out loyal Ulster to disloyalists while Unionists where talking about total integration as in all devolution being abolished and NI becoming as British as Finchley. Broadly it's just used now adays to refer to the specific milleu of Unionism that advocated for paramilitary action that organized and existed outside of the traditional Unionist political establishment.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:36
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That seems about what I would have guessed. Seems reasonable to just ignore it and pretend they are interchangeable if I want to rile either lot up.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:58
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They come pre-riled
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Apr 9, 2021 21:05
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im an American, and being of asian post-colonial background I've been sympathetic to nationalist politics, but that being said it's sort of shocking to me that people like Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams could have successful post-conflict careers as politicians and statesmen. of course that doesn't really compare to apparently countless unsavory Loyalist figures of the Gusty Spence variety, who were either members of sectarian death squads or were closely linked to such paramilitaries never serving life sentences which I think would be the bare minimum punishment for activity or affiliation with groups like the UVF or UDA. (I know that the GFA included amnesty provisions but its still sort of hard to wrap my head around) now that I've kramered into this thread and opened my mouth about stuff I have no business opining on so I'll see myself out.
Gaupo Guacho fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 08:23
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What's the alternative though?
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Apr 10, 2021 08:32
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there isn't an alternative, like I said im just expressing the fact that its hard for me to get my head around. beyond amnesty, it seems like a lot of people who had clear links to the UVF and UDA or were widely known to be sectarian killers were never even attempted to be brought to justice and are openly celebrated to this day in murals and stuff. that's even harder for me to understand. anyway sorry for opening my mouth
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Apr 10, 2021 09:04
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I was just making conversation, you don't need to be all apologetic
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Apr 10, 2021 09:27
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Yeah chill and say whatever. People here still struggle with that stuff too but there really wasn't much of an alternative. It was a dirty end to a dirty time but the only way forward is to not get caught up in the tit for tat.
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Apr 10, 2021 09:39
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I mean, you can't "bring people to justice" if a lot of people have a very different idea of what "justice" means because they think they were entirely in the right to do what they did. Like that's how conflicts like that work, two very different value systems and outlooks and everything. A US example might be found in the political divide, a lot of people entirely agree with the people who stormed the capitol building. A lot of people think the police are extremely cool and good when they murder minorities, and especially in the latter case it makes it extremely difficult to achieve justice when a lot of people and especially people in power, just don't think anything wrong happened to begin with. Stuff like that only works when there is a sufficiently universal buy-in to a single concept of right and wrong and/or a single authority to judge it. And in the case where people were already operating outside the law (and where the people who would be enforcing the law are explicitly on one side of the conflict and have used their claim of legal authority to escalate the conflict in the past) you are left with just... ignoring it, kinda. Because enforcement will be read as (and would probably be) partisan. Also not helped by the fact that the UK government at the moment basically thinks it was always in the right about everything and has zero interest whatsoever in relitigating that, also possibly zero interest in NI altogether tbh. Again to tie it back to the US I think if you ever get police reform you are probably likely to see a whole lot of amnesty and people being paid off with nice retirement arrangements rather than any real attempt to prosecute historic crimes. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 09:46
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Not gonna lie, kind of enjoying the current Tory party pulling off the mask to reveal that the UK means England and maybe the elements of Scotland and Wales that don't speak too weirdly and like to go fox hunting. Unionism is an ideology of the regions, in Westminster it just means there are some extra colours on the flag and everything else is basically the same. Brexit is essentially the first time a UK government has been forced to make a choice between the territorial integrity of the UK and achieving an English political goal and it has been clearly shown that NI, Gibraltar, etc. aren't part of the UK as the British mainland is. It is frustrating to see the same rear end in a top hat politicians who pushed for Brexit so they could guarantee being able to keep abortions illegal and possibly hoped to bring back border checks in Armagh, trying to blame everyone else for the shitshow they campaigned for. It's far too soon to tell but it's going to be interesting (and potentially horrifying) to see what the aftershocks of Brexit do to the situation in the North.
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Apr 10, 2021 10:08
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OwlFancier posted:I mean, you can't "bring people to justice" if a lot of people have a very different idea of what "justice" means because they think they were entirely in the right to do what they did.  I guess I've been down a troubles rabbit hole after the recent flareup
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Apr 10, 2021 11:24
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most unionist don't care about England and England has openly not given a poo poo about NI for a decades at a government level let alone the public. Unioninsts want the union and partition maintained to keep the supreamcist state they built up with starting with James Craig while the republic and egnalnd just recused themselves from any input
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Apr 10, 2021 12:18
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EmmyOk posted:most unionist don't care about England and England has openly not given a poo poo about NI for a decades at a government level let alone the public. Unioninsts want the union and partition maintained to keep the supreamcist state they built up with starting with James Craig while the republic and egnalnd just recused themselves from any input They sacrificed three of the nine counties to keep their little enclave for 100 years, what do they do next?
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Apr 10, 2021 13:15
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EmmyOk posted:most unionist don't care about England and England has openly not given a poo poo about NI for a decades at a government level let alone the public. Unioninsts want the union and partition maintained to keep the supreamcist state they built up with starting with James Craig while the republic and egnalnd just recused themselves from any input a big part of the loyalist mindset has always been fear of persecution as a minority on the island
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Apr 10, 2021 16:25
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Gaupo Guacho posted:yeah idk why im making it out to be so hard to understand, all of the above makes sense to me. I think its just cause all of these events seem relatively recent, and that they took place in Europe. it was genuinely blood boiling and chilling to learn that someone like Lenny Murphy was openly commemorated by the UVF well into the late 90s. Worth noting is the GFA was a massive defeat as far as the British Empire is concerned. They didn't lose territory, but it showed that they couldn't run the usual colonialist policies that close to home. Not when the IRA started hitting targets in England and it stopped being a "local conflict". What the GFA was when it came down to it was an out for all parties involved. No one wanted things to drag on and the american element to the whole thing meant that their well could have been meaningful consequences for Britain if they didn't try real hard to come to a peaceful conclusion. Part of the peaceful conclusion was *not killing your enemies*. This meant that you had to legitimize and accept all sorts of people. https://www.sinnfein.ie/dessie-ellis What that little sinn fein overview doesn't mention is that dessie used to run a tv repair shop and is known to be good at other kinds of electronics too. Timers, that sort of thing. On the other end of the spectrum we've had the likes of Michael Stone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Stone_(loyalist) on plugging a book on RTÉs prime time friday slot. A land of contrasts and you can have as many contrasts as you like so long as you keep people fed and they feel that things are slowly improving. (Or atleast not getting worse) crispix posted:a big part of the loyalist mindset has always been fear of persecution as a minority on the island Projection is extremely real and powerful.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:28
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yeah, that's a huge part of it, i think
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Apr 10, 2021 16:29
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One aspect of the NI situation I always found kind of fascinating was the self-identification with the Israeli situation - Seeing Palestinian flags flying in Nationalist areas and (less frequently) Israeli ones flying from Unionist houses. I suspect that the current Israeli situation would basically be the dream of most Unionists, where Catholic enclaves could be designated as the 'Catholic Ulster Territory' and not part of NI or the Republic and they could have a corrupt government with fringe religious parties basically holding sway over a slightly-more-functional-than-real-life Stormont.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:38
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Quite a few Mandela/South Africa themed murals for similar reasons too, which reminds me...Gaupo Guacho posted:yeah idk why im making it out to be so hard to understand, all of the above makes sense to me. I think its just cause all of these events seem relatively recent, and that they took place in Europe. it was genuinely blood boiling and chilling to learn that someone like Lenny Murphy was openly commemorated by the UVF well into the late 90s.  moments of this year for me was finding out that Wouter Basson is still practicing medicine at a clinic in South Africa. I'd got it in my head that he was either dead, went off to hide by a lake in Argentina, or at the very least turned to something more in his camp like selling meth to kids from a lovely caravan, not just wandering back into medicine like nothing happened.Understandably people are quite upset that the man who spent a chunk of his medical career trying to engineer a virus to wipe out Black people is practicing anything other than hiding in shame down a mineshaft, but it's a good example of the kinds of atrocious people that sometimes get away with it because the alternative would be the collapse of peace/reconciliation processes that would risk anything up to and including civil war.
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Apr 10, 2021 17:20
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