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This video does a decent job of tracking transphobic representation throughout the ages of film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHTMidTLO60
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Apr 9, 2021 06:22
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:I was born in 87 so I can't speak to the experience of growing up in the 80s, but I mean, little kids can be vicious bastards and while in some ways more tolerant than adults, definitely also the type to use problematic slurs and insults pretty liberally. born in 85 and i clearly remember playing 'smear the queer' on the playground without the least idea what any of it meant. Thanks bigot parents!
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Apr 9, 2021 06:50
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Twelve by Pies posted:Also now I'm reminded there's a similar joke in one of the Naked Gun movies (I don't remember which one) where Anna Nicole Smith's character is getting undressed offscreen and you can see her silhouette, Leslie Nielsen's character is all excited, and then the shadow has a dick pop up and he runs out of the room and vomits into a tuba. appropriately enough
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Apr 9, 2021 09:48
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:born in 85 and i clearly remember playing 'smear the queer' on the playground without the least idea what any of it meant. Thanks bigot parents! Born in 83. At scouts some people would call it that, but eventually the name transitioned to “British bulldog”.
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Apr 9, 2021 12:56
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je1 healthcare posted:Wasn't the twist supposed to be that Ace made out with a cis male ex-NFL player that had murdered and stolen the identity of the women he thought he was making out with? I don't think trans people transition as part of an elaborate revenge and murder plot, Finkle was not attempting to live as his authentic self And as TbP said above, would a cis man really live completely as a woman for a decade and get breast implants to carry out a revenge plan. The plan didn't depend on stealing Einhorn's identity specifically (she was just a rando hiker who wasn't even a cop, and when Ace researched her it was suspicious that a missing hiker returned and cut ties with her whole family and joined the police force seemingly out of the blue). A cis man probably would have just ambushed a male hiker instead. (Ok you could argue being a gorgeous woman helped Finkle/Einhorn's plan because she could use sex appeal to manipulate other officers, Ace, etc. But it was also insanely risky: the plot went wrong from the beginning because someone discovered Finkle/Einhorn's penis and she murdered him and had to try to pass it off as a suicide.) Would a cis man go with such a risky plan? Plot details of a 90s B comedy that I inexplicably remember aside: the joke wasn't "they all puked because Finkle was revealed as a cis man who wasn't living his truth, but all those cops and an immature private dick would have been fine with kissing a proud transwoman", it was "ew woman with a penis." There weren't positive references to actual trans people, or any indication that Finkle didn't represent what the writers thought of queer people. Also all the homophobia in the movie. *Disclaimer: Nothing in this post is to be construed as implying you're a bad person if you like the movie. I have a juvenile sense of humor and some bits of it are hilarious. I'm just making a media critique here. Twelve by Pies posted:
Yeah it was pretty standard for the time, I still giggle like an idiot at this scene not because it's a penis, but because the silhouette is this enormous 16-inch monstrosity with a full 360-degree curly-cue The prejudice is still bad today but it's almost hard to remember how bad it was just 10 years ago let alone the 90s. Trans people were considered insane and a joke so recently. Remember when Kucinich answered a lovely question about a trans person as a judge by simply saying yeah he wouldn't discriminate against a qualified appointment if they were trans, and Jon Stewart treated this as crazy left-wing nonsense and made "Judge Chick With Dick" jokes
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Apr 9, 2021 14:42
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Just once I'd like to see the "lady has penis WHAAAAAAAAAT" comedy trope subverted. Like, show the dick silhouette, show the guy's silhouette shrugging, and then after show them in bed with them both smiling, maybe have the guy crack a joke like, "That was a fun surprise!" or "So, you want on top next time?"
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Apr 9, 2021 15:58
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Screaming Idiot posted:Just once I'd like to see the "lady has penis WHAAAAAAAAAT" comedy trope subverted. Like, show the dick silhouette, show the guy's silhouette shrugging, and then after show them in bed with them both smiling, maybe have the guy crack a joke like, "That was a fun surprise!" or "So, you want on top next time?" Some Like It Hot almost had you covered in 1959. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mHhr-aaLnI It was basically made as a middle finger to the Hayes Code.
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Apr 9, 2021 16:11
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The arrested development "you're not one of those silly men that's dressed like a woman, are you" joke was a step in the right direction, like the joke still hinges on his being a pervert but he's a likeable character etc.
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Apr 9, 2021 16:16
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Screaming Idiot posted:Just once I'd like to see the "lady has penis WHAAAAAAAAAT" comedy trope subverted. Like, show the dick silhouette, show the guy's silhouette shrugging, and then after show them in bed with them both smiling, maybe have the guy crack a joke like, "That was a fun surprise!" or "So, you want on top next time?" does the "i'll suck yo, dick" scene from Don't Be a Menace count? if not, then a show that handled cis/trans relations surprisingly well was sons of anarchy with tig and i forget the name of the trans lady. but tig already knew she was trans, so maybe not..
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Apr 9, 2021 22:43
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Mr Interweb posted:does the "i'll suck yo, dick" scene from Don't Be a Menace count? Venus Van Dam, played by Walton Goggins.
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Apr 9, 2021 23:52
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Twelve by Pies posted:Whether or not Finkle was trans, I don't know of many cis males that would get breast implants for the purposes of passing as a woman when there's much easier ways to go about it. In fact that's part of the "joke" at the end is Ace rips off Finkle's shirt to try and reveal fake breasts, only to see actual breasts and remark "Well that kind of surgery can be done over the weekend!" That's a good point, although it all hinges on whether they perceived Finkle as a transwoman or as a man, the former being transphobic and the latter being.....sexist. Which most sexual orientations are in effect, sexist. And the LGBT community is still trying to figure out if it's bigotry to refuse to sleep with people based on their sex. Aside from that it's pretty normal to not want to make out with someone who's actually a murderer manipulating you into an elaborate revenge plot, or anyone else that lies about their identity for sociopathic reasons. Most cis men wouldn't spend 10 years trying to kidnap and murder Dan Marino over a single bad play, but the point was that Finkle was psychotic. You could argue that the lack of trans-representation at the time caused this film to poorly inform people on the fact that transgenderism is a legitimate psychological condition, and it would be another 20 years before it entered the mainstream consciousness. But the jury's still out on whether anyone who has committed hate crimes against trans people were influenced by these kinds of media portrayals, to any degree. If so, then virtually every depiction of men doing nefarious things in drag becomes a social problem. And yet men were murdering crossdressing prostitutes upon being "tricked" long before film and television existed VitalSigns posted:The prejudice is still bad today but it's almost hard to remember how bad it was just 10 years ago let alone the 90s. Trans people were considered insane and a joke so recently. Remember when Kucinich answered a lovely question about a trans person as a judge by simply saying yeah he wouldn't discriminate against a qualified appointment if they were trans, and Jon Stewart treated this as crazy left-wing nonsense and made "Judge Chick With Dick" jokes Oh wow, I'm just remembering now that Colbert did 'tranny' jokes and asian impressions throughout the 2000s. So were most late-night hosts. It's easy to forget that even most leftist at the time had no concept of transgenderism besides "looks like some kind of fetish I dunno" But Jay Leno now says he felt really bad about it the whole time, promise. je1 healthcare fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 00:14
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je1 healthcare posted:That's a good point, although it all hinges on whether they perceived Finkle as a transwoman or as a man, the former being transphobic and the latter being.....sexist. I'm not sure who "they" is in the sentence. If it's the writers, then death of the author is a thing and whether they were purposely writing Finkle as trans or just as a crazy cis male, that doesn't matter when it still can be interpreted as "trans women are just men dressing up as women to trick straight men." If it's the cops who started puking in the final scene, again, they didn't start puking when they all found out that they had all been making out with Finkle/Einhorn, they started puking when Ace showed them the penis tucked between the legs. That is absolutely "Gross I kissed someone with a penis." And as someone said before, Ace already knew Finkle was psychotic and he didn't freak out about that, he freaked out when he went "Einhorn is a MAN!" which led to the puking/shower scene. quote:You could argue that the lack of trans-representation at the time caused this film to poorly inform people on the fact that transgenderism is a legitimate psychological condition, and it would be another 20 years before it entered the mainstream consciousness. But the jury's still out on whether anyone who has committed hate crimes against trans people were influenced by these kinds of media portrayals, to any degree. There's a lot more to bigotry than just hate crimes, and movies like Ace Ventura and Naked Gun that use "Straight man finds out woman has a penis" as vehicles for humor absolutely can contribute to some people's views on the subject. It still to an extent reinforces "They're actually just men trying to trick straight men" even if they're not meant to be specifically trans, they're using stereotypical depictions of how bigoted people view trans women. I don't think those movies necessarily poorly informed people, I think it's more that they presented opinions that already existed. I don't want to say "mainstream" since gender dysphoria wasn't even a phrase people had heard at the time, but I remember in high school hearing things like "So if you marry a woman and then you find out she used to be a man does that make you gay?" I don't really think that they got their ideas from gender identity from comedy movies, it's possible I suppose, but it seems more likely that the writers of those movies just took ideas that already existed ("It would be gross if I found out a woman I found attractive had a penis") and used them as punchlines. quote:And yet men were murdering crossdressing prostitutes upon being "tricked" long before film and television existed Just because a problem already exists doesn't mean that media can't contribute further to it, racist portrayals of people of color are still problematic even though racism existed before film and television too. I also don't think anyone who's racist necessarily became one because of movies. As an example, Gone With the Wind has a lot of glorification of the Civil War and slavery, but I don't think people watched that movie and went "Oh, slavery was actually good." It can contribute to their feelings on the Civil War and racism in society and reinforce racist views, but it probably won't cause them to go out and commit hate crimes.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:00
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There's no generous reading of trans portrayal in Ave Ventura.Missing Donut posted:Norman Lear would have a word to say to you about calling All in the Family conservative comedy. The characters are simply multi-dimensional and none of them are 100% good or 100% bad people, with maybe the exception of Edith. I meant that it had conservative comedy in it, that it often managed to portray Archie in a sympathetic light and write him with a lot of humanity. He wasn't one dimensional and his motivations were believable and understandable, even if they were wrong. Similar to Hank Hill. I didn't mean it was a conservative minded show. I was holding up Archie Bunker and Meathead as examples of how you can write really good "both sides" comedy. Several episodes take the piss out of Mike in ways that aren't hackneyed or cheap. Best of all, it's all really loving funny. I thought I was pretty clear but maybe not.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:01
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Yeah there's a pretty big difference between Buffalo Bill - who Hannibal Lecter straight up says isn't a trans woman and is modeled after a number of infamous cis male serial killers - and the dick joke at the end of Ace Ventura. There's no reading apart from "they thought she was hot and now they're grossed out she has a penis". That an earlier scene parodies Crying Game makes that explicit.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:15
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Groovelord Neato posted:Yeah there's a pretty big difference between Buffalo Bill - who Hannibal Lecter straight up says isn't a trans woman and is modeled after a number of infamous cis male serial killers - and the dick joke at the end of Ace Ventura. There's no reading apart from "they thought she was hot and now they're grossed out she has a penis". That an earlier scene parodies Crying Game makes that explicit. To be fair, "he isn't actually a trans woman" is a thing that numerous people have told actual trans women for whatever reason. I agree that Buffalo Bill is not actually a trans woman as a character, but Lecter saying that is not why that's the case.
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Apr 10, 2021 01:48
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Twelve by Pies posted:I'm not sure who "they" is in the sentence. If it's the writers, then death of the author is a thing and whether they were purposely writing Finkle as trans or just as a crazy cis male, that doesn't matter when it still can be interpreted as "trans women are just men dressing up as women to trick straight men." If it's the cops who started puking in the final scene, again, they didn't start puking when they all found out that they had all been making out with Finkle/Einhorn, they started puking when Ace showed them the penis tucked between the legs. That is absolutely "Gross I kissed someone with a penis." And as someone said before, Ace already knew Finkle was psychotic and he didn't freak out about that, he freaked out when he went "Einhorn is a MAN!" which led to the puking/shower scene. I suppose so, but the latter joke seems more at the expense of Ace, who is more worried about sleeping with a man then having cracked the case. It's comical that he's sticking a plunger on his face in order to force himself to puke and lighting his clothes on fire, because not even bigots would do that. That and, penis or not, it's pretty universal to be traumatized upon discovering that someone used a fabricated identity in order to sleep with you, especially in service of a crime. Remember in Revenge of the Nerds when one of the geeks tricks a girl into sleeping with him by wearing a mask and pretending to be her boyfriend? And after she discovers his real identity, she's totally okay with it because he was good at sex? Except no wait, that's totally rape and the director apologized for it decades later. I'm struggling to see the difference between the two scenes, beyond the ongoing trope that it's funnier when men act sexually violated compared to women. PT6A posted:To be fair, "he isn't actually a trans woman" is a thing that numerous people have told actual trans women for whatever reason. I agree that Buffalo Bill is not actually a trans woman as a character, but Lecter saying that is not why that's the case. Sterling also said that Bill's violent behavior was atypical for trans people, they were mostly docile and peaceful. You could speculate that Lecter made a bad diagnosis but his skills as a psychologist are never called into question in the context of the movie.
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Apr 10, 2021 02:41
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je1 healthcare posted:I'm struggling to see the difference between the two scenes, beyond the ongoing trope that it's funnier when men act sexually violated compared to women. Because Ace Ventura literally says "Oh my god, Einhorn is a MAN!" and starts dry heaving. That's not a paraphrase, that's not a Cliff's Notes version of the scene, that is literally the line Ace Ventura speaks. He didn't say "Oh my god, Einhorn is not actually Einhorn but somebody else who stole her identity!" It is clearly obvious he is starting to vomit because he is grossed out by Einhorn being a man. You're ignoring the very blatant text of the scene in favor of some weird subtext that isn't really there, I'm not sure why. Ace Ventura is a transphobic movie, even if Einhorn isn't explicitly trans, you don't have to defend it by saying that everyone was grossed out for some other reason. I'm not even saying the writers are horrible people, I know I've said/written things in high school and in the Navy that I regret today because they were very hosed up, but the scene itself is absolutely transphobic.
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Apr 10, 2021 02:53
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:born in 85 and i clearly remember playing 'smear the queer' on the playground without the least idea what any of it meant. Thanks bigot parents! Oh I remember this game and now thinking back as a kid in the 90's probably internalized a lot of homophobia that definitely delayed me accepting my own sexuality and worse still carry with me.
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Apr 10, 2021 03:51
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Twelve by Pies posted:Because Ace Ventura literally says "Oh my god, Einhorn is a MAN!" and starts dry heaving. That's not a paraphrase, that's not a Cliff's Notes version of the scene, that is literally the line Ace Ventura speaks. He didn't say "Oh my god, Einhorn is not actually Einhorn but somebody else who stole her identity!" It is clearly obvious he is starting to vomit because he is grossed out by Einhorn being a man. Ok. I just think transphobia requires an trans person or character to be involved, and am not entirely sure if it's bigotry to refuse to sleep with people of a certain sex. The LGBTQ+ community is still figuring this out, and I'm deferring to them on the issue. In other contexts, it's legally rape to lie about your identity in order to sleep with someone, and the scene exists because Hollywood considers it funny when men cry in the shower because they've been borderline raped.
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Apr 10, 2021 03:52
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je1 healthcare posted:and asian impressions throughout the 2000s. But I believe he then did an actual impression of a "Mexican" (Brazialian?) Version of himself, so in short Colbert is a land of contrasts.
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Apr 10, 2021 04:00
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HootTheOwl posted:Are we talking about "Ching-chong Ding-dong?" Because I know that Asian impression were explicitly a dig on someone who was trying to play off some racism by saying "it was just an impression". Pretty much, although Colbert was playing the role of a mildly racist right-wing pundit. Jay Leno doesn't have that excuse.
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Apr 10, 2021 04:16
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je1 healthcare posted:I just think transphobia requires an trans person or character to be involved There's an old sketch on Mad TV with a character called Ms. Swan. One of the running gags on the show is that someone will ask her to describe someone and she'll say "He look like a man." A lot of people took her to be stereotypically Asian, and there are at least some posts from Asian people who say that they found her to be pretty offensive and reinforce Asian stereotypes. The writers of Mad TV insist that Ms. Swan was based on Bjork, and Alex Borstein (who played her) says that she was based partly on her Hungarian relative. So are these people who think that the character was offensive to Asians wrong in their anger because the character wasn't supposed to be Asian? Is it objectively impossible for the character to be stereotypically Asian because the character wasn't supposed to be Asian? If so, is it impossible for a white character acting stereotypically black to be racist against people of color, simply because they're not black? Again, I have no idea if Finkle/Einhorn was supposed to be trans or not. I can't say, and I'm sure the writers probably don't remember or care. The reason why the scene is transphobic is because the movie treats "making out with a woman who has a penis" as something that is inherently gross and disgusting. Again, the cops at the end of the movie did not barf when Ace said that Einhorn was Finkle. They barfed specifically when Ace turned Einhorn/Finkle around and showed them the penis. Even if you want to be charitable and say that they actually vomited because Einhorn wasn't who she said she was (you shouldn't be charitable, because that is very obviously not the joke, there is nothing that even remotely implies it, and it is clear to anyone that they are throwing up because they see she has a penis), it's still something trans women can have to deal with. Trans women do actually sometimes worry about what will happen if someone finds out they're trans. This is especially true in situations where they might have ID that says they're a different gender than they're presenting as, or if someone deadnames them. Even if their name is legally changed bigots can still interpret that as a "fabricated identity." And just as Ms. Swan didn't have to be Asian for Asian people to feel that the stereotypes were making fun of them, Finkle/Einhorn didn't have to be trans for trans people to feel discomfort, depression, anger, or whatever other emotion they might feel when they watch a movie where the climax of the movie is "This woman has a penis, gross!" Even if Einhorn/Finkle isn't trans, it's still a situation somewhat analogous to the fears and concerns trans people have, played off as a joke. quote:In other contexts, it's legally rape to lie about your identity in order to sleep with someone, and the scene exists because Hollywood considers it funny when men cry in the shower because they've been borderline raped. I'm not saying you're wrong about it being rape to lie about your identity to be intimate with someone (it absolutely is), and while I can't immediately think of a movie that has a scene where we're supposed to laugh at a man who's been borderline raped (due to a false identity, I should clarify, not just in general), I don't doubt one exists. But Ace Ventura ain't that movie. Ace Ventura is not a movie with deeply complex themes and layered writing. quote:am not entirely sure if it's bigotry to refuse to sleep with people of a certain sex. The LGBTQ+ community is still figuring this out, and I'm deferring to them on the issue. This is a pretty complex issue and I'm definitely not qualified to speak to it. I also feel like this is the kind of issue that could be divisive even in the LGBTQ+ community, it's not as if they're a monolith of opinion, there's already issues that exist where there isn't complete agreement. That said, I don't think Ace Ventura is going to be cited as proof one way or the other in the answer to that question.
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Apr 10, 2021 04:59
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:born in 85 and i clearly remember playing 'smear the queer' on the playground without the least idea what any of it meant. Thanks bigot parents! 78 and same. Might as well have called it Kill the Guy with the Ball
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Apr 10, 2021 05:45
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je1 healthcare posted:Ok. I just think transphobia requires an trans person or character to be involved Trust me, people don't give half a poo poo if the person in the media is actually trans, perceptions of us are still shaped by this kinda bullshit. There's a reason "finkle is einhorn" "jokes" are STILL occasionally thrown at trans people. We get compared to characters like this all the time, and for a lot of people, characters like this are their exposure to anything even resembling actual trans people. It fosters a really loving mean mindset of "trans women are men in dresses" and in turn leads to people not bothering to actually learn anything about us because why would they, we're crazy men in dresses, it's so simple. I very, very strongly disagree with the idea that it's not transphobia because the character isn't explicitly trans, and this is a huge part of why, because it pretty directly harms us. Writer's intent really doesn't matter because this poo poo is not in a vacuum. quote:and am not entirely sure if it's bigotry to refuse to sleep with people of a certain sex. The LGBTQ+ community is still figuring this out, and I'm deferring to them on the issue. Personally, it depends on the reasoning and how it's dealt with. I've had many guys tell me that they're not into dating a trans woman, some of them polite, some of them... loving psychotic, honestly. Like, death threat over OKCupid type poo poo. "I'm not into dick", okay sure. I get it. "I don't want to date you because you're not who you say you are and also your parents are ashamed of you and if I ever see you in public I'm going to kill you", that's bigotry, hopefully very obviously. There's a lot of discussion and nuance around this, a lot of us have different opinions on it. Frankly, though, I don't even think it's related to this conversation because of what I said above (and below). quote:In other contexts, it's legally rape to lie about your identity in order to sleep with someone, and the scene exists because Hollywood considers it funny when men cry in the shower because they've been borderline raped. Yep, it's a hosed up thing to do, disclosing our past is another very, very complex issue though. There are major safety issues involved for us in disclosing, for example, often because of said extremely psychotic reactions. Dudes will go from "holy poo poo I want to gently caress you" to actual physical violence real quick, but being out and proud about being trans also invites violence and guys with fetishes (who are bound to treat us like trash). There's no truly great option for us, disclosing always carries risk, and that sucks for everyone. This is not the point of the Ace Ventura bit though, very obviously. The joke is that she's not a she, [austin-powersishly] that's a man, baby, like a huge number of other similar jokes in similar media from around that time. He is not crying in the shower and puking because he was borderline raped, he is doing it because "oh no, I kissed a man". Ace Goddamn Ventura was not making a nuanced takedown of trans women who don't disclose their past, it certainly was not a movie that would have taken men being raped seriously either, it was just mocking the idea of men becoming women, and making a big show of how gross that is and how hosed up it would be to accidentally kiss a dude. Side note, the movie came out while "sex changes" were a pretty big talking point in society (a meme, even). I got my first exposure to trans people in the early-mid 90s directly because of stuff like Oprah talking about "sex change operations" and people "being stuck in the wrong body" fairly regularly. It's a product of its time in a whole lot of ways, and that's one of them. I loved Ace Ventura (though mostly the second one) when I was younger, but good god does it feel hosed up to watch after transitioning. It sucks, really hard, and it makes me feel like poo poo. Basically, Twelve by Pies posted:You're ignoring the very blatant text of the scene in favor of some weird subtext that isn't really there, I'm not sure why. Ace Ventura is a transphobic movie, even if Einhorn isn't explicitly trans, you don't have to defend it by saying that everyone was grossed out for some other reason. PT6A posted:To be fair, "he isn't actually a trans woman" is a thing that numerous people have told actual trans women for whatever reason. (usually we just get "he isn't a woman" though) I'm also gonna second literally everything Twelve by Pies apparently posted while I was typing this. Good-rear end post.
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Apr 10, 2021 06:06
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dreamin of semen posted:I'm also gonna second literally everything Twelve by Pies apparently posted while I was typing this. Good-rear end post. quote:Ace Goddamn Ventura was not making a nuanced takedown of trans women who don't disclose their past, it certainly was not a movie that would have taken men being raped seriously either, it was just mocking the idea of men becoming women, and making a big show of how gross that is and how hosed up it would be to accidentally kiss a dude.
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Apr 10, 2021 07:27
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Dapper_Swindler posted:christ. i never listened to buckley and jesus he is such a loving snob. is he english because he sounds like he is faking it super hard. He's one of those malevolent Anglo-Mexican aristocrats who fancied themselves landed gentry like the Bush's.
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Apr 10, 2021 10:39
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je1 healthcare posted:I do remember seeing Red Eye over a decade ago and thinking it wasn't offensively bad like the Half-Hour News Hour was. It was mostly Gutfield and musicians clowning on celebrities and democrat politicians, which is fair game. One time they mocked the Canadian military for implementing new measures to reduce troop suicide rates, because therapy is only something pansy liberals believed in, but they later apologized for the segment. But there was a huge degree of self-deprecation, they were a step above the rest of the Fox News lineup in that they didn't claim to be truth-tellers. The difference is that Red Eye often had at least one actual comedian in the line-up, and it's a panel show so Gutfeld didn't have to be funny as often or even tell jokes. This new Gutfeld! show is a completely different format, and it demonstrates that Gutfeld is awful at hosting. He's always been bad at it. The only skill he has is looking smug and coming in with two quips per segment that are the equivalent of Monica Lewinsky jokes. Fox News has a huge problem with talent drain right now. They keep losing people, and the last high profile signing they had was Tucker Carlson. They've also been very bad at developing talent in-house due to their nepotistic policies. The only exception being Jesse Watters, and he's not even that good. I wonder if they'll try to bring Crowder back to the network or give Shapiro his own show at some point.
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Apr 10, 2021 13:09
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je1 healthcare posted:Remember in Revenge of the Nerds when one of the geeks tricks a girl into sleeping with him by wearing a mask and pretending to be her boyfriend? And after she discovers his real identity, she's totally okay with it because he was good at sex? Except no wait, that's totally rape and the director apologized for it decades later. I'm struggling to see the difference between the two scenes, beyond the ongoing trope that it's funnier when men act sexually violated compared to women. It's not the same situation at all. The cops never met the real Einhorn, it wasn't like they were dating her and then Finkle sneaked in Revenge of the Nerds style with a mask on and hosed them and they thought it was someone else. They only knew Finkle, they were attracted to Finkle. Then they were grossed out when they found out the attractive woman they made out with had a penis. Like, if someone sneaks into your house at night and pretends to be your girlfriend to have sex with you that is rape. If you discover your girlfriend has a horrible secret criminal past and you never would have got with her if you'd known that is a bummer but you weren't raped. je1 healthcare posted:Ok. I just think transphobia requires an trans person or character to be involved, je1 healthcare posted:and am not entirely sure if it's bigotry to refuse to sleep with people of a certain sex. The LGBTQ+ community is still figuring this out, and I'm deferring to them on the issue. What No we are not lol. Refusing to sleep with other men is not bigoted, not wanting to suck a dick is not bigoted. Surely you see the difference between making out with a hot person and then saying "no thank you" if it turns out he or she has a penis, versus extended performative puking and disgust because you touched a man's heinie and liked it. You can like the movie even if it had gross jokes, you don't have to reinterpret 90s "she's a man" jokes so blatant that children got them. It's not even the only homophobic joke in the movie, when Ace is trying to look at the football players' super bowl rings because the kidnapper's is missing a stone, one of the players thinks Ace is checking out his penis in the urinal and kicks his rear end. This is played for laughs. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 13:19
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Zeroisanumber posted:78 and same. Might as well have called it Kill the Guy with the Ball [i]n some circles is it was called Kill the Carrier
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Apr 10, 2021 14:03
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"Ace Ventura is not transphobic, but it is misandrist"
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Apr 10, 2021 15:03
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BiggerBoat posted:Yeah, it's weird to think about now but it's only been like, what, 20 years ago where same sex material was just heee-larious. The Ave Ventura "everyone pukes" gag was in 1994 so maybe 25. Where being gay WAS the punchline. Or being female or black or Asian. Fat. You should really watch Hannah Gadsby: Nanette explains why it's NOT funny to turn minorities, victims, or marginalised people into a joke, ever, even if you are one of them yourself.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:33
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learnincurve posted:You should really watch Hannah Gadsby: Nanette explains why it's NOT funny to turn minorities, victims, or marginalised people into a joke, ever, even if you are one of them yourself. Why? Can't I laugh at myself when I do something OCD or depression related and doing: 
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Apr 10, 2021 15:36
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Josef bugman posted:Why? Can't I laugh at myself when I do something OCD or depression related and doing: Seriously, she's super good and will make you feel better about yoursef. Periodic reminder that John Cleese is a massive transphobe and always has been, the transphobia in life of Brian was All written by Cleese.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:43
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I'm sure we'll get an explanation for why it wasn't transphobic.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:49
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learnincurve posted:Seriously, she's super good and will make you feel better about yoursef. I'd really rather not, y'know? Sometimes mocking oneself is the best we can do to reconcile ourselves with the world.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:50
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Incidentally the only confusion the LGBT+ community has about trans issues is the utter incomprehension we feel when we discover that the CisHets clearly never talk about sex before they have it. Seriously? Straight people just dive into bed with each other without ever setting boundaries or anything? That's degenerate that is.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:50
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learnincurve posted:Incidentally the only confusion the LGBT+ community has about trans issues is the utter incomprehension we feel when we discover that the CisHets clearly never talk about sex before they have it. Seriously? Straight people just dive into bed with each other without ever setting boundaries or anything? That's degenerate that is. There are certain lines that you don't cross without permission but yes I am a raving degenerate.
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Apr 10, 2021 17:41
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Groovelord Neato posted:Yeah there's a pretty big difference between Buffalo Bill - who Hannibal Lecter straight up says isn't a trans woman and is modeled after a number of infamous cis male serial killers - and the dick joke at the end of Ace Ventura. There's no reading apart from "they thought she was hot and now they're grossed out she has a penis". That an earlier scene parodies Crying Game makes that explicit. There's a big difference and SotL is an obvious classic and really ahead of it's time in even it's clumsy attempts to acknowledge the real trans community but it would still be a very problematic portrayal today. There's two big problems Bill's backstory and I'd argue the trans horror money shot (i.e. the tuck) late in the film. Many of Bill's effective mannerisms and tricks are modeled on serial killers but these elements are wholly invented or rather the serial killer material is being synthesized with classic transphobic tropes. I don't know of any serial killer who tried for years to get sex reassignment surgery but was denied, but it is the real experience of many in the trans community in this era.
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Apr 10, 2021 19:42
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Zedhe Khoja posted:He's one of those malevolent Anglo-Mexican aristocrats who fancied themselves landed gentry like the Bush's. I mean, he was neither English or Mexican, but other than that...
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Apr 10, 2021 22:55
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TheArchimage posted:You made a pretty good post yourself. Pro-read. Wait whaaaat the movie about a guy who expresses his professional differences with a female authority figure by bending over and pretending like his rear end is talking to her doesn't handle gender and sexual issues with a delicate touch? Noooo. One other thing to note is that the kiss between Einhorn and Ventura is nonconsensual. Really it's sexual assault on her part, and the movie handles a man being assaulted by a police officer with the usual nuance and empathy of 90s gross-out films (a dick joke: "your gun is poking into my side"). Naturally Ace doesn't act upset or traumatized over this in any way until he deduces "she's a man!" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 23:23
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