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Nuns with Guns)
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Captain Invictus posted:And it was a civilian government in appearance only, the entire thing was basically run by secret police who would eliminate dissenters and anyone trying to learn things they weren't supposed to. Yeah I was gonna say, the "civilian government" is a big ole crock of poo poo that needed to go.
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Apr 10, 2021 13:38
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Yardbomb posted:Yeah I was gonna say, the "civilian government" is a big ole crock of poo poo that needed to go. Absolutely, but the new government isn't exactly racing to return power to real civilian government. They're set-up up pretty well with their royal puppet. And while you still have the military being lovely (that's the text of AoT), there's still the uncomfortable subtext of "yeah, but they were still justified, and it sure is handy to be able to quickly respond". This is the major problem of AoT's writing. It's basically a character shooting another, and turning to the camera and announcing that shooting people is bad. Then the rest of the show goes on the demonstrate that they were right to pull the trigger.
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Apr 10, 2021 13:45
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seems like consensus is that aot was good up until a mysterious shadow editor forced the author to make it bad instead but honestly, when the big basement twist turned out to be "what if the zombie giants were WW2-era Jews" i lost all faith in the story and its author. even with a staunchly anti-fascist, if you go that hard on Holocaust allegory and imagery in your fantasy story they gotta do a lot of heavy lifting to convince me the story is worth continue reading, and that guy absolutely did not, so i'm not surprised to hear the story suddenly and mysteriously ended real bad.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:13
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Macaluso posted:I also loved Lost and I'll go a step further and say I loved the last season and the finale was good I agree. I think if they'd reworked things a bit so that the "flash-sideways" stuff hadn't been featured in every episode of the season and taken up so much screentime it would have been better received.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:15
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a cartoon duck posted:seems like consensus is that aot was good up until a mysterious shadow editor forced the author to make it bad instead but honestly, when the big basement twist turned out to be "what if the zombie giants were WW2-era Jews" i lost all faith in the story and its author. even with a staunchly anti-fascist, if you go that hard on Holocaust allegory and imagery in your fantasy story they gotta do a lot of heavy lifting to convince me the story is worth continue reading, and that guy absolutely did not, so i'm not surprised to hear the story suddenly and mysteriously ended real bad. Yeah and I'm not willing to believe the shadow editor nonsense. He just failed to stick the landing. It's not uncommon.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:31
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I mean the evidence is fairly good, shueisha meddle with poo poo constantly.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:39
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Mokinokaro posted:Yeah and I'm not willing to believe the shadow editor nonsense. He just failed to stick the landing. It's not uncommon. I would bet that editor shenanigans probably did have a big hand in changing the direction and tone over the last year of chapters, but Isayama still probably had a chance to stick the landing and ultimately was not able to do so. There's a lot of little things in the last chapter that, if changed, probably could have brought the ending up to "decent or mediocre" and not worth talking about that much vs the dumpster fire it turned out to be.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:41
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No reason it can't be both, right? Bad writer + bad editor = dumpster fire ending.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:47
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Honestly, sometimes blaming everybody is a good idea.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:49
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Captain Invictus posted:Said female antagonist is the woman who made a false rape accusation against the shield hero in the beginning which kicked off his entire poo poo. Also the whole "we love being child slaves!" Thing. I had to google this and her wiki page has a trivia about her being bad at games (of chess) and the only time she ever won is when someone let her win.
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Apr 10, 2021 15:59
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I talked about this before but did anyone else bounce off GOT after the red wedding? After that it became clear that the shows one true tnarritive trick was anyone can die at any moment. And that just makes it hard to root for anyone if 5hebshow just keeps kicking you in the dick. Having, "anyone can die" as a central element in your story has diminishing returns very quickly I find.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:00
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BigRed0427 posted:I talked about this before but did anyone else bounce off GOT after the red wedding? I actually love this because it means the story can actually have cliffhangers and moments of suspense and dangers that don't feel fake. When The Hound and Brienne was fighting I was on my toes because I knew either one of them could end up dead. Compare that to most other fiction where the main characters have so much plot armor that they might as well be in god mode. No dangers mean anything. For example I started watching One Piece recently and that show has single fights that last two or three episodes. Over and over again the show will throw in a move where it looks like a main character is in serious danger or might have been defeated or killed but it means absolutely nothing. I feel like the show is trying to fool me and failing at it. One thing I didn't like about later parts of GOT is that genuine plot armor actually starts to settle into place on the main characters and only secondary characters are expendable at that point. Yes the show kills off a few main characters in the final episode of the final season but at that point is means about as much as them being crushed by the Monty Python foot. The show was finished anyway.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:20
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BigRed0427 posted:I talked about this before but did anyone else bounce off GOT after the red wedding? i mean that was in the books and all that stuff was telegraphed in the books and show pretty hard. the issues i had is when they ran out of book and basicaly kept people being alive and just killing of the secondaries, which cool but then they would put plot armour on liked ones outside like 3 of them. idk i feel like more should have died at the battle of winterfell. i think what pissed me off is they ruined a moment i had been waiting for all series by making the one character basicaly moron for like 2/3 seasons until he was finally killed in fun way. the sad thing is that description fits alot of characters.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:30
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Katt posted:One thing I didn't like about later parts of GOT is that genuine plot armor actually starts to settle into place on the main characters and only secondary characters are expendable at that point. Yes the show kills off a few main characters in the final episode of the final season but at that point is means about as much as them being crushed by the Monty Python foot. The show was finished anyway. To paraphrase Lindsay Ellis' video on GoT, "Darn your charm, Peter Dinklage!" Also it has became beyond clear by their own admission D&D had no idea what they were doing so they'd just go, "People like the Hound, right? Bring him back I guess?"
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Apr 10, 2021 16:30
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Katt posted:I had to google this and her wiki page has a trivia about her being bad at games (of chess) and the only time she ever won is when someone let her win. much as I want to watch some new shows that crunchyroll has I will never sub to them again for bankrolling the anime for that poo poo
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Apr 10, 2021 16:32
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Toy Galaxy did another one of those deep dives into something that makes me think "Yeah! That was huge in my childhood" followed by "Wait that was like six months". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgllLpdAD7g
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Apr 10, 2021 16:38
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Dawgstar posted:To paraphrase Lindsay Ellis' video on GoT, "Darn your charm, Peter Dinklage!" i mean the books allude to him being alive possibly and he was one of the better characters even in the lovely seasons.. i feel like as bad as seasons 5-7 are, they still have build ups and pay offs even if its badly done. 8 has none of those things. its big setpieces with none of the heart really. they try to set poo poo up but they fail. i will say this against Lindsay Ellis video. i didnt hate tyrions "you gotta kill her jon" speech as much as a i should have. mostly because i agreed with it. dany had the monster in her the whole time, she just pointed it at worse people. the problem is the later "heel turns" were loving terribly done. my hot take is they do Sansa better then dany because at least sansa is cunning and knows how to play the game.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:39
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Captain Invictus posted:it is very "this character is an ex-girlfriend-from-a-bad-breakup insert" feeling I wouldn't be too fussed; Crunchyroll got bought out by Funimation  .
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Apr 10, 2021 16:43
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I feel like the thing about the Red Wedding is that it was an end to Robb's narrative arc. The whole season makes a point about how he isn't playing the "game" right, and how despite winning every battle he was losing the war. Its a fully closed off narrative, even if its an unhappy end. Compare to, say, the Telltale Walking Dead games, where the deaths are hilariously arbitrary. That's a bad example of the idea that anyone can die.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:44
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Sansa is consistently the dumbest and most passive/submissive character in the entire franchise. She spends the whole thing just following along as other people scheme and make plans. Sometimes for her and sometimes while using her. Did Sansa make a single active decision in the entire franchise before Aryas trial?
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Apr 10, 2021 16:47
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Katt posted:Sansa is consistently the dumbest and most passive/submissive character in the entire franchise. She spends the whole thing just following along as other people scheme and make plans. Sometimes for her and sometimes while using her. she gets the arrye/whatever to show up because jon decides to fight a battle that will gain him 30+ renown but -20 chance of victory. i just prefer her over dany, i prefer Renly over dany.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:49
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Agreed Danny was always kind of kill crazy and the story did try to remind people that mass murder did not solve problems but it was always kind of half hearted and it never really stuck. Then they had half an episode left to go and had to do it all that character building in a few minutes.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:55
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The one pleasant surprise at the end of Game of Thrones is that they let the denouement be funny, with the last remaining ruling nobles being Sam and a bunch of randos coming back from incidental appearances in other seasons and their negotiations being completely bitchy and silly. Making Bran king was stupid, but I like that they leaned in a little bit to how absurd the post-apocalypse political situation would be.
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Apr 10, 2021 16:59
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:The one pleasant surprise at the end of Game of Thrones is that they let the denouement be funny, with the last remaining ruling nobles being Sam and a bunch of randos coming back from incidental appearances in other seasons and their negotiations being completely bitchy and silly. Making Bran king was stupid, but I like that they leaned in a little bit to how absurd the post-apocalypse political situation would be. yep. i liked that it was also just "and now we jumped up to elector count type system" like sure, bran will probably rule peacefully until he becomes a sandworm or whatever but it doesn't actuall end anything, which i kinda like. Katt posted:Agreed i think the issue is even they realized that "hey most people don't get dany is supposed to be hosed up and this was always gonna end this way but we made her actions look good through out the whole thing so looks like we have to spell it out". it makes the "turn" which did have build up way worse then it already was , its why you have lindsay complaining about it in some weird defense of dany. then again , i liked stannis until he got done dirty even though thats how it will probably happen in the books. like yeah he was a monster right of king rear end in a top hat, but he was better then the players outside Rob. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 17:01
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I only ever wanted the undead to win in GoT, I was the person who hated it the whole time and couldn't escape the drat thing. Speaking of Telltale though, good god their GoT game, I don't know how anyone enjoyed "Sand kicked in your eyes constantly simulator" that it was, oh boy, another shithead character who we all know cannot die or get anything done to them, sure love this playing-as-a-game-only-character-versus-established CBT session that I've signed up for. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 17:09
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Yardbomb posted:Speaking of Telltale though, good god their GoT game, I don't know how anyone enjoyed "Sand kicked in your eyes constantly simulator" that it was, oh boy, another shithead character who we all know cannot die or get anything done to them, sure love this playing-as-a-game-only-character-versus-established CBT session that I've signed up for. It had a lot of close competition but I feel like that was peak Telltale 'your choice doesn't actually matter lol' in action. (My bar for best Telltale game is Tales From The Borderlands so adjust that statement accordingly.) Although seriously nothing you did mattered in the game because you had to bounce off canon characters.
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Apr 10, 2021 17:15
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Yardbomb posted:I only ever wanted the undead to win in GoT, I was the person who hated it the whole time and couldn't escape the drat thing. yeah. yeah, ramsay shows up like 5 times if i remember. like the first time he shows up, it works. you know whats coming but it works. then its just lol gently caress off. i did like slowly killing the dylan roof looking house bolton rear end in a top hat though.
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Apr 10, 2021 17:23
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Droyer posted:If you write a mystery without knowing the solution first you are a clown IMO. Absolutely, and there lies the problem with long mystery arcs (or an overarching mystery arc) in shows where there's no set end point. X-Files kept it together when the mysteries proper were contained within an episode or a season, but once they needed a "big" mystery/overplot it started to fall apart because they couldn't work backwards from the solution and divide it out over the episodes when there was an unknown number of episodes in between. (For the funniest example of "crap, we need to solve this" there was an old anime Key The Metal Idol that built up this weird conspiracy mystery and in the second to last episode some guy just sits down next to the main character on a park bench and just explains the entire thing.) Lost was doubly screwed by them not knowing the answer from the outset, but also because the key draw/hype to the show was the mystery itself and they weren't confident enough that people would stick around after that, like how people bailed from Twin Peaks even though that wasn't really even the main point of the show. If they had an answer and a plan maybe they could have ended a season by actually solving that mystery and revealing another, but that wasn't in the cards, so stupid rushed ending it is...
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Apr 10, 2021 17:35
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Twin Peaks is an interesting one because there's a concrete mystery with a solution that has a mundane surface layer that's covering a massive series of more abstract mysteries with few to no clear solutions.
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Apr 10, 2021 17:43
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Dawgstar posted:(My bar for best Telltale game is Tales From The Borderlands so adjust that statement accordingly.) Tales From The Borderlands is both so good and also so harsh, because it demonstrates how fun and interesting a setting you can make Borderlands, which Gearbox constantly swings and misses on, with some good success now and again.
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Apr 10, 2021 17:51
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yep. i liked that it was also just "and now we jumped up to elector count type system" like sure, bran will probably rule peacefully until he becomes a sandworm or whatever but it doesn't actuall end anything, which i kinda like. I liked Stannis. He was the king that they deserved and probably needed. Having him burn his own daughter disappointed me though because from that moment I knew he was hosed. I also didn't feel like it was something that his character would do. Nor without a substantial buildup to it. Breinne acquiring closure from killing a defeated and defenceless Stannis also seemed like an jarring character move. I had almost forgotten about Renly at that point but even then he was at war with Stannis so it seemed kind of like fair game? If Renly didn't believe that Joffrey was the son of Robert then Stannis was the rightful king.
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Apr 10, 2021 17:55
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CYBEReris posted:Twin Peaks is an interesting one because there's a concrete mystery with a solution that has a mundane surface layer that's covering a massive series of more abstract mysteries with few to no clear solutions. It was also taking the piss out of old soap operas so on top of the main murder mystery and and the Lynchian surrealism going on you also had intentionally over the top melodrama and campy absurdity mixed in with everything else.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:03
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BigRed0427 posted:I talked about this before but did anyone else bounce off GOT after the red wedding? I like the anyone can die gimmick. Not only does it increase suspense but, more importantly imo, it helps sidestep the issue with long running stories where the writers have done everything they can think of doing with a character as we cycle through a new cast relatively often. I'd like to see that sort of thing more, and in more genres, honestly, doesn't need to be dying the characters could leave for other reasons. Like maybe a college comedy where no one is staying for more than 3 or 4 seasons add a few new characters every season, retire a few characters every season. Would help keep things fresh longterm and avoid the situation where the writers run out of things to do with the cast so eventually every character has had a romance with every other character or the like. Of course in GoT's case it created the problem where the plot armour coalescing around the remaining original cast like Arya, Tyrion, Jon, and Daenerys ended up being all the more obvious and jarring because of it's contrast to the earlier seasons. But then I've never needed or wanted someone to root for in a story. When I read the Red Wedding my first reaction wasn't "Oh no I liked reading Cat and Robb!" although I did, especially Cat, my reaction was "Oh I can't wait to see what the ramifications of this will be!"
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Apr 10, 2021 18:04
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stillvisions posted:Absolutely, and there lies the problem with long mystery arcs (or an overarching mystery arc) in shows where there's no set end point. X-Files kept it together when the mysteries proper were contained within an episode or a season, but once they needed a "big" mystery/overplot it started to fall apart because they couldn't work backwards from the solution and divide it out over the episodes when there was an unknown number of episodes in between. Higurashi of all creative properties somehow pulled it off. Then sequel last year pooped the whole thing but w/e.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:10
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Captain Invictus posted:and this was just posted in the aot manga thread: The whole "editors bad" thing that seems trotted out every time a shounen manga shits the bed is really weird to me and seems to have nothing actually behind it besides people extrapolating out from some stories Toriyama told about his editors making batshit requests one time. Sorry to keep going back to it as an example but everybody blamed the editors and WSJ for Bleach's shitshow of an ending, but Kubo has never said anything about having an antagonistic relationship with his editor (in fact, he's said the opposite). All he's ever said publicly is his health started to fail trying to keep up with with a weekly release schedule which ultimately caused him to approach WSJ about a year before the series ultimately ended and tell them "hey I'm wrapping this poo poo up within a year". There was reportedly little to no animosity born from this decision and WSJ would even go on to later publish Kubo's short series Burn the Witch. I think more than "editors bad, magazine bad" a much simpler explanation is that sticking the ending to a long running series is really hard, particularly in a format that both encourages having a shitload of characters but only ~16 pages a week to address all of them. Dapper_Swindler posted:i think the issue is even they realized that "hey most people don't get dany is supposed to be hosed up and this was always gonna end this way but we made her actions look good through out the whole thing so looks like we have to spell it out". it makes the "turn" which did have build up way worse then it already was , its why you have lindsay complaining about it in some weird defense of dany. then again , i liked stannis until he got done dirty even though thats how it will probably happen in the books. like yeah he was a monster right of king rear end in a top hat, but he was better then the players outside Rob. Right, Dany was pretty obviously always going to turn and for all the good she did she also perpetrated a lot of unneeded death in the name of planting her rear end down on the throne of a country she didn't even really know. She just wanted it because it should be her's, and that was enough to justify using any means necessary to build an army and invade. IMO one of the most telling moments of her character is when Tyrion (in one of the last smart moments his character has before being driven into the dirt forever) points out to her that she now rules all of Slaver's Bay, with a people who not only love her but need her to keep the nobles in check lest they just yeet her reforms the second she moves on, and tells her the smart thing to do is just forget her claim to some country across the sea she has no real ties to and settle down with her current rule. And she can't. Danny rejects this advice completely out of hand, because as much as she cloaks her ambition in compassion and a hatred of slavery and the systemic cycles of violence and exploitation, it is still ultimately in her heart of hearts about getting her rear end on the Iron Throne. ...But not a lot of watchers looked past the superficial justifications she gave, which why there's an unfortunate amount of children who are going to have to grow up with the name Dany or Daenerys. Tyrion's little "oh you all just ignored the bad poo poo she was doing because she was pretty and badass and freed the slaves *winks at camera*" speech is obviously bad and way too on the nose, but it's also not completely wrong.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:13
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I think if we could just accept that a bad ending doesn't wreck everything that came before it, we could be a lot happier enjoying shows. I still think it's fair to be pissed at mystery box shows. But if the box was the only reason you were watching thats just a bad show from the start.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:23
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Bug Squash posted:I think if we could just accept that a bad ending doesn't wreck everything that came before it, we could be a lot happier enjoying shows. Sure, but the problem with a story is that it really is all its parts. A videogame can have a dogshit ending and still be a sweet and enjoyable memory due to the fact that there's more there than just the characters and plot. But movies and TV, nah. The mystery box structure is a good way to build commitment. Problem is that once you have commitment you run the risk of tainting the resulting relationship with the show by not delivering.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:32
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MiddleOne posted:Higurashi of all creative properties somehow pulled it off.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:32
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Sydin posted:The whole "editors bad" thing that seems trotted out every time a shounen manga shits the bed is really weird to me and seems to have nothing actually behind it besides people extrapolating out from some stories Toriyama told about his editors making batshit requests one time. I feel worse for all the kids named Khaleesi (or Kelly C).
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Apr 10, 2021 18:35
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I mean, remember when Death Note ended, then the publishers basically told Ohba "No it didn't, turn it around now" and then it meandered through some more that felt obviously tacked on.
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Apr 10, 2021 18:35
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