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they're both fascists and i didn't/don't want good endings for either of them, nuance is fine, story is fine, but they can suffer and keep on sufferin/be super dead
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Apr 11, 2021 08:12
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SirSamVimes posted:Lmao at the implication that people didn't immediately start thirsting for Gaius once he was shown helmetless.
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Apr 11, 2021 08:16
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I'm honestly pretty uncomfortable with the dehumanizing tone this thread has taken with regards to the Werlyt kids, treating them like objects to be smashed in front Gaius to make him feel bad and not people in their own right. People who might not deserve the fate of being tortured and murdered just so you get the satisfaction of making a fascist feel bad.
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Apr 11, 2021 08:20
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Gearhead posted:Gaius was explicitly NOT a genocidal fascist. His entire GIMMICK was 'We can't save dead people from themselves.' He KILLED genocidal fascists. Gaius -- fascist Varis -- genocidal fascist Zenos - genocidal
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Apr 11, 2021 08:31
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Bruceski posted:Gaius -- fascist Emet — bored and upset
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Apr 11, 2021 08:37
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jokes posted:Emet — bored and upset genocidal, invented fascism as a government that's specifically designed to fail and cause as much chaos as possible. edit: I fuckin love that in FFXIV, fascism was explicitly created as a means to cause nations to fall apart. SirSamVimes fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 08:48
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I'm honestly fine with Gaius not dying because he's already being punished fittingly enough: seeing his ideals of "the strong rule over the weak" being the direct reason the kids he apparently cares about keep killing themselves and the Empire he so gloriously idealized burning to the ground because of the maximum of that ideal (Zenos). The only thing missing to top it off is telling him the Emperor he so loyally served and did all those atrocities for was not only an Ascian, but the head honcho who gave literally no shits about any of them. Because I think he knows Garlemand was founded but Ascians but not that Solus was one, right?
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Apr 11, 2021 11:48
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:I'm honestly fine with Gaius not dying because he's already being punished fittingly enough: seeing his ideals of "the strong rule over the weak" being the direct reason the kids he apparently cares about keep killing themselves and the Empire he so gloriously idealized burning to the ground because of the maximum of that ideal (Zenos).
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Apr 11, 2021 11:54
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Nessus posted:I think he was mostly serving Varis wasn't he? I'm not sure when Solus totally 4 realzies died (we mean it). Wasn't that why we weren't having to deal with multiple Garlean legions in ARR? Solus died post-ARR
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Apr 11, 2021 11:59
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thetoughestbean posted:Solus died post-ARR Every time I think of the "lmao you think that a civil war that perfect happened by accident? I timed my death exactly" scene, I chuckle.
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Apr 11, 2021 12:02
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Yeah, Regulus is the legatus who was serving under Varis. Gaius served under Solus' reign as a tribuni of the XIth legion before his promotion, and his gunblade was nicknamed Herisbane for killing pretenders to the throne. Don't forget Gaius is actually on his 50s or around that, Grandpa really aged well.
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Apr 11, 2021 12:05
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black (wolf) don't crack
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Apr 11, 2021 12:06
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Blows my mind that people are so opposed to depth or nuanced characterization that they just plug their ears and yell fascist anytime Gaius comes up. He's a complex, nuanced, genocidal fascist who needs to die imo. Also his "I am the ubermensch! No more will my parents drag me to Sunday School!" speech in Praetorium still reminds me of grading freshmen papers and thus annoys me deeply. It's the same way I feel about Yotsuyu back in Stormblood. Yes, this is all very sad and tragic. But because of what you've done, I'm still going to bash your skull in with my staff without hesitation or regret the moment the game lets me. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 12:56
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Xarbala posted:I'm honestly pretty uncomfortable with the dehumanizing tone this thread has taken with regards to the Werlyt kids, treating them like objects to be smashed in front Gaius to make him feel bad and not people in their own right. It's been genuinely weird for me, playing an Au Ra girl named Allie with the same horns/face as the Allie amongst the WEAPON pilots. Must've been real awkward for him back when we fought. Gonna feel real awkward during the diamond fight for me.
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Apr 11, 2021 13:48
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Blows my mind that people are so opposed to depth or nuanced characterization that they just plug their ears and yell fascist anytime Gaius comes up. This is true and he is an interesting character but I still hope the story grinds him down into a tiny nub and gives him no catharsis or relief. Yeah yeah I'm sure he's sad about the adopted kids gooping themselves but no one in the plot has stopped to point out how hosed up it is he basically collected orphans who's parents he had murdered through his own military campaigns. I'm sure he's got feelings for them but like everything else this guy has ever believed in the entire thing is rotten to its absolute core and he just cannot make that final step to realizing it, much as he clings to the notion that the ideals of garlemald having anything worth holding on to. It's what makes him a compelling and tragic figure and its also why they shouldn't give him an inch. The closest thing to a happy ending is the last kids get out alive and tell Gaius to gently caress off and they go somewhere far away from him. But this is a gundam so the big brother is going to die taking out the Legate in a suicide attack, possible fusing them both inside that core tester machine ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 13:59
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SirSamVimes posted:genocidal, invented fascism as a government that's specifically designed to fail and cause as much chaos as possible. Technically the Ascians are omnicidal, since they wanna kill literally everybody.
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Apr 11, 2021 14:00
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Waffleman_ posted:Technically the Ascians are omnicidal, since they wanna kill literally everybody. Personally, I stick to 'genocidal' because 'omnicidal' just makes them cartoon characters. And if they wanted anything in Shadowbringers (which was the point where we learned exactly the extent of their plans), it was to make the Ascians less like cartoon characters.
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Apr 11, 2021 14:27
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:This is true and he is an interesting character but I still hope the story grinds him down into a tiny nub and gives him no catharsis or relief. Yeah yeah I'm sure he's sad about the adopted kids gooping themselves but no one in the plot has stopped to point out how hosed up it is he basically collected orphans who's parents he had murdered through his own military campaigns. I'm sure he's got feelings for them but like everything else this guy has ever believed in the entire thing is rotten to its absolute core and he just cannot make that final step to realizing it, much as he clings to the notion that the ideals of garlemald having anything worth holding on to. It's what makes him a compelling and tragic figure and its also why they shouldn't give him an inch. Oh I'm not really opposed to him getting owned or anything. The way people gleefully say his kids deserve to be murdered because "no quarter for the family of fash" poo poo that comes up all the time just makes me really uncomfortable. I remember when last patch dropped multiple people were mad they couldn't bash Allie's skull in and how she "chose this life, she deserves no forgiveness" ...It's loving creepy!
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Apr 11, 2021 16:28
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Oh I'm not really opposed to him getting owned or anything. The way people gleefully say his kids deserve to be murdered because "no quarter for the family of fash" poo poo that comes up all the time just makes me really uncomfortable. I remember when last patch dropped multiple people were mad they couldn't bash Allie's skull in and how she "chose this life, she deserves no forgiveness" ...It's loving creepy! Yeah it's extremely hosed up and says more about the poster and whatever unhealthy feelings they're projecting than the characters themselves.
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Apr 11, 2021 16:33
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At the start when the kids were introduced I wouldn’t have cared if they were more casualties. They were just too dedicated to being cogs in the war machine. Now that we know their motivations, I hope the rest survive. They’re futile as hell but they’re just trying to save people, and stop others from living under the thumb of tyranny like they have. They’re a bunch of dumb kids trying to steal a tank and kill Hitler.
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Apr 11, 2021 16:34
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Oh I'm not really opposed to him getting owned or anything. The way people gleefully say his kids deserve to be murdered because "no quarter for the family of fash" poo poo that comes up all the time just makes me really uncomfortable. I remember when last patch dropped multiple people were mad they couldn't bash Allie's skull in and how she "chose this life, she deserves no forgiveness" ...It's loving creepy! Oh yeah, no doubt. It kind of seems to be a too common reaction seeing the popularity of revenge webnovels/fanfics and how in some sites people want the characters they dislike to suffer excesively. And jfc that commnent about Allie. Like if there's anyone innocent in that plot it's her.
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Apr 11, 2021 16:55
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Xarbala posted:Yeah it's extremely hosed up and says more about the poster and whatever unhealthy feelings they're projecting than the characters themselves. Something I have noticed about people making predictions/wishes about this game is you can always tell more about them than they think by who they have die, even when it's a fairly natural prediction. Like, yeah, Gaius probably is gonna lose all his kids, but someone saying that should happen is showing some problem views pretty hard. Something else I've noticed: nobody wants Thancred dead. Predictions about Scion deaths go across the board but usually gravitate around the 'annoying' ones (and again, it says more than they think when their 'random Scion killed for little reason' just happens to be, say, Y'shtola)... but nobody ever puts Thancred on the chopping block. Maybe it's because he's had nearly as many death fakeouts as we've had expansions to put them in, but nobody ever puts 'Thancred dies' in their predictions.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:02
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Cleretic posted:Something else I've noticed: nobody wants Thancred dead. Predictions about Scion deaths go across the board but usually gravitate around the 'annoying' ones (and again, it says more than they think when their 'random Scion killed for little reason' just happens to be, say, Y'shtola)... but nobody ever puts Thancred on the chopping block. Maybe it's because he's had nearly as many death fakeouts as we've had expansions to put them in, but nobody ever puts 'Thancred dies' in their predictions. I mean, I feel like I saw plenty of "Thancred isn't making it through this this time" predictions prior to 5.3, and with what we know going into Endwalker, I've also seen predictions that he's going to get caught in whatever happens to Garlemald and not make it to/out of 6.0.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:09
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Cleretic posted:(and again, it says more than they think when their 'random Scion killed for little reason' just happens to be, say, Y'shtola) I haven't really seen predictions like that for a long time, between "Y'shtola represents FFXIV in other media usually, she's kinda the mascot ala Shantotto" and "Y'shtola has a near death experience every expansion so even if they actually killed her everyone would believe she'd come back" 
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Apr 11, 2021 17:12
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The next scion to die is [throws dart at board] the lady who is concerned that her sister is too horny
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Apr 11, 2021 17:19
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https://twitter.com/PlayerPhase/status/1380907473146679299?s=20 How likely is it that Zenos gets his new weapon in part 1 as a tease for the melee job before Fanfest?
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Apr 11, 2021 17:23
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Countblanc posted:The next scion to die is [throws dart at board] the lady who is concerned that her sister is too horny No. I did hear someone's theory that live or die in Endwalker, a lot of the A Team scions might retire out the party, and let more of the B Teamers or take front roles in what comes next.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:24
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I feel like that won't happen until 5.55 specifically for that reason
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Apr 11, 2021 17:24
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:No. I just don't see that happening from a gameplay perspective, because they're not going to take out the Fan Favorite longtime "party members" who they just finished coding into Trusts not all that long ago. Like, plot-wise, maybe they'll start getting back to their Academic routes and being all "Yeah, I researched a ton of stuff and wrote a few theses on this thing we're dealing with." , but they're still going to be down for fieldwork in dungeons.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:32
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Xarbala posted:I'm honestly pretty uncomfortable with the dehumanizing tone this thread has taken with regards to the Werlyt kids, treating them like objects to be smashed in front Gaius to make him feel bad and not people in their own right. the thing about the Werlyt kids is that it was clear from the word go that they were introduced just to die right away in the same storyline, so for a lot of people their brain never switches them from "shapes on the screen" to "character i feel real human emotion for". it's like when someone is introduced by saying they will marry their fiancé when the war is over and your immediate reaction is to laugh, not because someone with a lover dying is funny, but because you become so keenly aware of their function in the narrative you can never think of them as a person within the context of the story anymore. elaborate murder fantasies about them are pretty loving creepy though, no argument there
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Apr 11, 2021 17:46
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the twins gonna get fuckin obliterated baby
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Apr 11, 2021 17:54
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We’re going to the moon, the Derplander marquee job is Paladin (coming from Dark Knight), and we know we’re having a Dragoon with mind control issues and Twins coming for the ride. So we just need to figure out who our Summoner, Ninja, and White Mage are. Or to fill out the whole cast, a Monk, a Bard, a Sage, a Cid (free space), and a Beard Elemental. Maybe Zenos gets to be our actual long lost brother too.
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Apr 11, 2021 18:31
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Zenos is totally going to be the missing half of the WoL's soul. Also wrt Gaius I find him as detestable as anyone and was expecting him to stay a villain, but if you accept that Varis was full of poo poo when he compared Garlemald to Limsa Lominsa, and you accept that it's possible for peace to exist between the Lominsans, Sahagin, and Kobolds, even after what the Lominsans have done, then you accept there's a difference between someone like Gaius and someone like Varis. As for why Emet is sympathetic and why Varis is spat upon despite the fact that their objectives are basically the same, it's because Emet is doing what he does out of devotion - he wants his friends, family, and people back. He thinks the mortal races are weak, sure, but he doesn't hate or even resent them - he just wants to see his loved ones again. The only time he actually gets hatefully angry is when Alphinaud points out the futility in what he does, and says that the mortals are every bit the equal of the Ancients. If he was truly a hateful person, he wouldn't have faced his final defeat with acceptance towards the WoL and the Scions, or planned contingencies for it. He wouldn't have even considered his defeat a possibility. It's very simple and easy to empathize with the idea that someone as phenomenally powerful as he is would go to any length to save those they cherish, even if his methods resulted in all kinds of atrocity - that's why, despite being the single most destructive and evil character in the game in terms of raw body count, people like him. Varis on the other hand is a dumb nazi thug lol
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Apr 11, 2021 19:09
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Why would Zenos be part of the WoL's soul? He's also from the Source.
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Apr 11, 2021 19:14
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Chillgamesh posted:Zenos is totally going to be the missing half of the WoL's soul. I'd been going with the theory that he might be Hylothodeus about as hard as the theory that Y'shtola might be. The possibility of Zenos also being Azem only really works if Emet had, somehow, been trying to bring parts of other, missing souls over to the Source with the intent of trying to assemble a whole Amurotian. But all indications seem to be pushing towards him having lost all interest in his children when his son died early in life, and Zenos being some kind of strange anomaly.
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Apr 11, 2021 19:18
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SirSamVimes posted:Why would Zenos be part of the WoL's soul? He's also from the Source. ngl I think every single post I have made itt wrt soul dynamics has been insanely wrong and come from a place of misunderstanding how they work lmao
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Apr 11, 2021 19:21
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Zenos is probably the result of being the gandson of an Ancient soul (cause I bet there's soul shenanigans in genetics), coupled with a chance of being a Sundered soul + the Resonant thing which is an artificial Echo, coupled with a sociopathic upbringing given his short story, all culminating in the mess he is. Also I'd prefer if he weren't like a sundered important ancient and he just, has a big murder-bone-crush for the WoL.
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Apr 11, 2021 19:24
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Gaius is a cool video game man and i wanna hang out with him. Gaius trust when
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Apr 11, 2021 19:34
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Yeah I don't think anyone's character will be improved at this point by having them be the fragmented soul of a significant ancient.
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Apr 11, 2021 19:38
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Zenos trust when Furthermore in these fascism convos why does nobody care that your character is forced to join one of three organizations that exist primarily to yell racial slurs at indigenous people and literally kill their gods I guess the gridanians do that the least but nobody cares about gridania
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Apr 11, 2021 19:41
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