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SITB posted:Why would it happen though? In the good ending Angela shined the light on the city almost completely (Roland pulled her out so she didn't disappear with it), Ayin's goal (and by extension Carmen's) was reached. I suspect Carmen's goal either has changed or never was as good as people were hoping for. She's just too strange, too perfect, and the parallels with White Night are too appropriate for me to be convinced of anything else with the information we have now. I also would take a bet she wants Angela's body or something, considering I can't figure why Angela would be turning human otherwise. lets hang out posted:I'm not sure Carmen has a secret evil plan, my guess is that she's been feeding the library and recollecting the light just to take another shot at distributing it properly. Maybe even unconsciously. Just a god of the city unwittingly going through the only motions it remembers. The distortion process, when people seem to hear her voice, feels like her function as "the bucket" running out of control. Like exploding the heads of random people around the city, as described early on in Distortion Detective, doesn't really serve any goal I can imagine she'd have. Might have been a 'taking time to learn how to use these powers' deal. Considering how it's been built up as being purposeful, with the Index and everything it feels like it'd be extremely anticlimactic to have it all just be a coincidence or something. Like, the Index was basically a collective unconscious or something with it's weird prescripts, but then it was changed to specifically be helping grow the library
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Apr 10, 2021 20:54
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Acerbatus posted:I suspect Carmen's goal either has changed or never was as good as people were hoping for. She's just too strange, too perfect, and the parallels with White Night are too appropriate for me to be convinced of anything else with the information we have now. I mean, she was the one the gave the OK to Enoch to participate in the life threatening experiment despite being a child and even the original Lob Corp was incredibly sketchy (either Forsaken Murderer history actually happened or it's an allegory for the poo poo that has happened, either way proto-Lob Corp has skeletons in its past). Carmen was never perfect, people just wanted to believe in her ideals and dreams so much they whitewashed her. (Also Ayin was her immediate successor and was a scapegoat of sorts because how a lot of the awful stuff was ramped up once he was in charge) Carmen could have changed in the interim, but if the ending ends up vilifying Carmen while glorifying Angela it would be pretty gross given how Angela is just as complicit in everything that happened and before the current ending was on the path of being literally a worse version of Ayin, and if one act is enough to wash away all her sins then Ayin should have been similarly exonerated.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:18
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The difference is when Angela has a choice, in the good ending, at least, she tries to do the right thing, while Carmen did some pretty diabolical things entirely of her own initiative. Angela is more victim than perpetrator, Carmen is the opposite.
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Apr 10, 2021 21:41
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Angela literally choose to build the library and recommit all of Ayin's sins. As for being a victim, who isn't in the City? That was the point of Roland's entire arc, everyone is both a victim and a preparator; and as the second RRR reception pointed out it's not like Angela can claim that no one has suffered as much as she has. And as for trying to do the right thing, Carmen from the start wanted to save humanity while Angela spent most of the game determined to extract her revenge on Ayin (and to a lesser extent on the City). Also, in the bad ending Angela got the One Book that gave her all the information she said she wanted so it's not like Angela is somehow free of greed or was tricked by Carmen.
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Apr 10, 2021 22:09
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Everything we've been told about Carmen is filtered through the memory of someone hopelessly infatuated with her, except for her only on-screen appearances where all she does is show up to people in crisis and convince them to ruin their lives further. Admittedly thousands of years of sitting as a spooky tree-spine-brain statue thing in a tank at the bottom of L Corp probably did not improve her temperament, if she was at all aware for any of that.
Reiterpallasch fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 22:27
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SITB posted:Angela literally choose to build the library and recommit all of Ayin's sins. As for being a victim, who isn't in the City? That was the point of Roland's entire arc, everyone is both a victim and a preparator; and as the second RRR reception pointed out it's not like Angela can claim that no one has suffered as much as she has. I'm fairly sure that the entire library thing was from the voice, with Hokma (iirc) pointing out she's just following a new script not actually making her own choices.
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Apr 10, 2021 23:09
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If we take that realization literally, Angela spoke with Carmen ("She whispered to me that the answer is written in the book...") and gave in the same way everyone else who distorts does. Given that Distortions are common enough in the City that people know about them, if not what causes them, while Roland mistakes EGO for Workshop gear the first time he sees it, Carmen appears to have a pretty good eye for people who are vulnerable.
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Apr 10, 2021 23:25
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Really hard to blame Angela for things since she is likely being extremely manipulated. Just because she follows through on that in the Bad End and becomes extremely lovely and petty doesn't mean she still isn't a victim because she has the capability to do bad things. Since the choices aren't available unless you've done realizations, it shows she grows when she learns from others. She goes from a victim who wants to get revenge to a victim who wants to break the cycle of all that. Just because someone is a victim of someone else doesn't mean that they are automatically a good person. No one is arguing that Angela is wholly good or something, just that Carmen is the one that set this all into motion. She was reckless and manipulative from the get go. Angela has little choice in the things she did up to this point, and in what is probably going to be the Good/True Ending, she made the choice to better herself and hopefully better others around her rather than make the choice to be Really lovely.
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Apr 11, 2021 00:50
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I mean, Carmen gave Angela the idea to build the library by telling her it will give her what she wanted and then Angela wholeheartedly built it and went "ha ha yes yes more books" while repeatedly reviving people, driving them to emotional extremes and killing them again. Saying that it's mostly Carmen's fault is just downplaying Angela's complicity in the whole thing, especially when you compare to Ayin who did the same thing for better reasons and gets rightfully slammed for his actions. Sure, Angela in the end choose to do the right thing and break the cycle a second time; but having Carmen as the big villain is just whitewashing all of Angela's actions.
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Apr 11, 2021 08:20
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loving gently caress this god drat game.
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Apr 11, 2021 08:31
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Complete list of people in LC/LoR who are blameless: ...Finn? Maybe? Anyways, it's basically VLR 2.0 because Good people die.
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Apr 11, 2021 08:40
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enoch, i guess?
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Apr 11, 2021 08:44
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Angela may be a million years old and have the body of an adult woman, but in many aspects she is still just a child (and an abused child, at that). A lot of her actions are driven by the same kind of ignorance and naivety you see in children and are just as carelessly cruel, but at the same time when she realizes that the rules of her little game aren't as fair as she thought them to be she spends a period time outright telling people to leave for their own sakes, only to give up when she realizes that once someone's circumstances have brought them to the Library nothing she says will dissuade them. That says volumes about how much thought she's put into this system...that being exactly none, because she doesn't know anything about how people or the City works, or even how she herself works because she's been stuck acting on Ayin's bloody script for the vast, vast majority of her existence. Even her decision to set the Abnormalities loose on the world is something born from innocent ignorance rather than malice, a stark contrast to Adam who knew exactly what he was doing. I'd argue that Angela should be held at fault for her actions about as much as Ned Flanders should be held at fault for this. If she's still doing poo poo like this when she's experienced enough to know better, fair enough. But for the majority of the game, she's has a hard time really comprehending something as basic as how much her actions can hurt others. Carmen, on the other hand? If she is indeed the mastermind here, then as an adult who knows exactly what they're doing she should be held fully responsible for her actions.
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Apr 11, 2021 08:50
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TeeQueue posted:Complete list of people in LC/LoR who are blameless: How dare you forget Laetitia, a good girl who has done nothing wrong in her life. 
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Apr 11, 2021 09:08
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Knight of Despair has done nothing wrong, ever, in her life. Angela is 100% percent cognizant of the suffering she has caused. She dresses it as "my system is fair, actually (ignore the fact that all the guests are pre-booked please)" but Angela is actually taking revenge on the City for her suffering. It was mentioned in Hokma's realization that she resents the Sefirot* and in one of the post receptions convos ( EDIT: Her wanting to release the abnos comes from a place of kinship/sympathy as other beings that were carelessly created by Ayin and then discarded once they have outlived their usefulness. *And also yearns for their friendship. ** The parallels between her and Ayin were pretty on the nose for this update. Like in general you had Ayin : Angela :: Angela : Roland, but she literally choose to atone by spreading the Light across the City and intending to disappear with it. Except that she didn't personally hate Roland and choose to deny him any and all closure, so instead of getting dunked on Roland saved her by not letting her be subsumed by the Light. SITB fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 09:17
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Laetitia is an Abnormality, silly, they're not people! 
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Apr 11, 2021 09:17
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SITB posted:
actually wait. wait. waaaait. couldn't she have just use the lighted copies to beat over and over to get infinite copies of the books a la red mist while letting the original get out with the book they came for, in order to get what she wants while only sowing suffering among things she created for the purpose of suffering, thereby at least meaning she's being... as small of a dick as possible?  ow my head.
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Apr 11, 2021 09:19
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TeeQueue posted:in order to get what she wants while only sowing suffering among things she created for the purpose of suffering That'd probably be waaaaaaaaaaay too much of an Ayin plan for her liking, considering her history.
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Apr 11, 2021 09:24
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TeeQueue posted:actually wait. wait. Would the right people walk into the Library knowing that after they get the secret they wanted someone else could get their own secrets? The Library works as a temptation because people think they can get away with it and get what they want with no strings attached if they win (unknowing that the game is rigged). BisbyWorl posted:That'd probably be waaaaaaaaaaay too much of an Ayin plan for her liking, considering her history. That's already what happens though. The grind for pages/books is Angela repeatedly reviving guests, heightening their emotions and killing them. SITB fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 09:33
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Given that the ensemble was specifically feeding them, it still probably would have worked... but there's not any way Angela would have known there would be people feeding them delicious meals so that's fair.
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Apr 11, 2021 09:34
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After all that I really don't have the heart to do the endings besides forgive+forgive. Are they worth seeing? I just hope Roland and Angela just go out and have lunch together, that would be nice. As a random aside, I wonder if the warp train people are going to be restored in their post warp train form. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eyp8S05VIAEVsQz?format=png&name=900x900
MinutePirateBug fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 10:19
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The endings are really cool-maybe you'll be able to access them from the Credenza later? Like how you can see endings A/B/C without getting them once you've beaten LC.
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Apr 11, 2021 10:22
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As much as I can appreciate that LC also did bad ends you could see if you were willing to repeat content I'm not too sure I like the prospect of doing that fight TWO MORE TIMES just to see bad ends. Oh well, it's what YouTube is for. Also, ALL the book'd people get unbooked? Putting aside the whole "only very few of them are truly innocent" the OTHER end of the spectrum is more interesting to me: some genuine monsters and oppressors have been book'd, and are getting released back into the City. Seems like at least a little oops to me, hahaha.
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Apr 11, 2021 10:50
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Ending spoilers! Y'all remember this tweet? https://twitter.com/projmoonstudio/status/1030732226428788741 So looking at the second bad ending, when three of the other former Charles' office fixers are talking about Roland's fate, one of them has what I thought was a gun with an weirdly tacticool stock...  Computer, enhance--  Huh. Wonder if we're going to get the surviving Paladins as a reception. Though, none of those people look like Astolfo.
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Apr 11, 2021 11:28
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Reiterpallasch posted:Ending spoilers! Y'all remember this tweet? Also looks like the bar from the gif the character in the other ending first appeared in. MinutePirateBug posted:After all that I really don't have the heart to do the endings besides forgive+forgive. Are they worth seeing? I just hope Roland and Angela just go out and have lunch together, that would be nice. As a random aside, I wonder if the warp train people are going to be restored in their post warp train form. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eyp8S05VIAEVsQz?format=png&name=900x900 They're easy to find on YouTube, definitely worth seeing. Angela's red choice feels like the setup for another dungeon crawling spin-off, I love it. And is I guess one of the possibilities mentioned in the white ordeals text.
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Apr 11, 2021 13:09
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SITB posted:Knight of Despair has done nothing wrong, ever, in her life. I'm pretty sure fighting the same people repeatedly is a gameplay conceit, not a story one, unless I missed something
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Apr 11, 2021 18:07
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Acerbatus posted:I'm pretty sure fighting the same people repeatedly is a gameplay conceit, not a story one, unless I missed something Just like in LobCorp, where a variety of things usually considered gameplay conceits turned out to have in universe explanations and even significant story relevance, so does the fight repetition in Ruina. It is explained in the story segment after Blue Star that all the guests are immediately quantized and copied when they enter the Library, and that the Library itself is akin to a virtual battle simulator. As in, none of the people who enter are actually dead but rather in some weird-rear end Limbo, and we keep making Light-copies of them to extract their books. This explains why we can fight the same people multiple times and why it doesn't really matter even if we lose. It also means that the whole 'fair deal' the Invitation claims to offer is a load of bullshit.
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Apr 11, 2021 18:57
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Theantero posted:Just like in LobCorp, where a variety of things usually considered gameplay conceits turned out to have in universe explanations and even significant story relevance, so does the fight repetition in Ruina. I think creating a person like that is meaningful effort, with the cutscene for the Red Mist fight and all. It also does go against the 'fair fight' conceit which Angela seems to hold as being important. Lastly, she DID try to convince Lowell to just leave without trying to fight to take anything, which would be at odds with all that. I'd have to check to see if Angela was aware people don't die-die before Hokma mentions it, though. SITB posted:Knight of Despair has done nothing wrong, ever, in her life. I think the question rests on how much agency someone who was built, in every since of the word, their entire life into being something has when it comes to resisting being that thing.
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Apr 11, 2021 19:29
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Theantero posted:Just like in LobCorp, where a variety of things usually considered gameplay conceits turned out to have in universe explanations and even significant story relevance, so does the fight repetition in Ruina. What I don't understand is given that, how do people manage to run away again and again. Like are people actually able to leave any time they want if they desire that? I mean are they basically feeding themselves to a meat grinder and at any point while being ground up, they can just go "I really don't want this" and go home. But, they persist because they are crazy deluded people hopped up on light.
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Apr 11, 2021 19:37
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MinutePirateBug posted:What I don't understand is given that, how do people manage to run away again and again. Like are people actually able to leave any time they want if they desire that? I mean are they basically feeding themselves to a meat grinder and at any point while being ground up, they can just go "I really don't want this" and go home. But, they persist because they are crazy deluded people hopped up on light. Well, Iori does try to run and is kept in. I think most people are just hesitant to show their backs in a fight. A lot also kinda have no choice anyways, like Full Stop, or the Index people or the WARP Cleanup Crew
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Apr 11, 2021 19:48
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Theantero posted:Just like in LobCorp, where a variety of things usually considered gameplay conceits turned out to have in universe explanations and even significant story relevance, so does the fight repetition in Ruina. Then how did Philip run away and the device Oscar put on him to teleport out work? Why is Angela surprised when Hokma tells her that people aren't dead? Why is it such a huge deal when Angela creates the Red Mist, since before then only people physically in the Library could be fought? There are a ton of plot holes to this theory that she was aware of it all along
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Apr 11, 2021 19:49
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Like a lot of the "Angela was always bad, and is villainous throughout" just really feels like people are mad at the end of LC and can't let it go when LC is really just a prologue for the story they want to tell with Angela
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Apr 11, 2021 19:51
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My real question is how the next update in LoR Also, off-topic, but in my LC run for Day 18 on the nth reset, my pick was between Blue Star, [CENSORED], and the Red Shoes.  I also had a choice between three WAWs during Week 3. The day before this, they tried to give me Burrowing Heaven for Training. This is definitely shaping up to be A Facility.
t3isukone fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 20:11
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t3isukone posted:My real question is how the next update in LoR that IS a good question. if you meant 'how long', the final story patch is next week unless it gets delayed
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Apr 11, 2021 20:32
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Angela is a very relatable protagonist and I hope that things work out well for her in the end.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:41
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Acerbatus posted:that IS a good question. Pfffff I was going to talk about how >!I'm not sure how it's going to work with the alternate endings in this update-if it'll only go on from the one branch or if there might be different final fights for different plot threads. IE, Roland betraying Angela gets Charles' Office, Angela betraying Roland gets the Head, them sticking together gets A or Carmen.!< But a very Freudian typo.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:49
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t3isukone posted:My real question is how the next update in LoR I’d take Burrowing Heaven in Training, but TBF I generally play zoomed all the way out so I can see everything anyways. Here’s hoping you get some kinder choices, tho, if these are giving you trouble.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:53
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Acerbatus posted:I think creating a person like that is meaningful effort, with the cutscene for the Red Mist fight and all. It also does go against the 'fair fight' conceit which Angela seems to hold as being important. Lastly, she DID try to convince Lowell to just leave without trying to fight to take anything, which would be at odds with all that. I'd have to check to see if Angela was aware people don't die-die before Hokma mentions it, though. MotU posted:Then how did Philip run away and the device Oscar put on him to teleport out work? Why is Angela surprised when Hokma tells her that people aren't dead? Why is it such a huge deal when Angela creates the Red Mist, since before then only people physically in the Library could be fought? There are a ton of plot holes to this theory that she was aware of it all along MinutePirateBug posted:What I don't understand is given that, how do people manage to run away again and again. Like are people actually able to leave any time they want if they desire that? I mean are they basically feeding themselves to a meat grinder and at any point while being ground up, they can just go "I really don't want this" and go home. But, they persist because they are crazy deluded people hopped up on light. The people that run away are all people that just bring more people to the Library, in the end. They leave because the Library allows, and indeed means for them to leave. Recall that the Invitation (sent by Carmen, as per the Hokma realization) is given only to people that are 'destined' to come, so the people that leave are no more than people who are coming just to be allowed to leave. Keikaku doori and all that. Also, the fact that we do the very same thing with the Red Mist just reinforces the fact that we do the same thing with everybody who comes to the Library (which is not really up to debate, since it is directly stated in the cutscene that this is what we do to everybody). The Red Mist being introduced earlier than Blue Star thus just serves as a kind of prelude to the whole concept, rather than it being a total asspull when it comes up later. If the Red Mist is special in any way, it is because it is the first time Angela thinks to do this directly without utilizing the Invitation, but not because it is in any way implied that this is some particularly difficult thing to achieve . And who knows, perhaps she was initially not aware of this being the case with the Library, because as per the Hokma realization, the Library is fundamentally a Carmen scheme.
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Apr 11, 2021 21:12
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MotU posted:Then how did Philip run away and the device Oscar put on him to teleport out work? Why is Angela surprised when Hokma tells her that people aren't dead? Why is it such a huge deal when Angela creates the Red Mist, since before then only people physically in the Library could be fought? There are a ton of plot holes to this theory that she was aware of it all along Angela wasn't surprised when Hokma asked her about why she keeps all the guests in stasis though? She just couldn't answer why she didn't commit to either killing them or releasing them. Fundamentally, before her choice to forgive Roland Angela is just acting as any other member of the City. Roland literally calls both himself and Angela "A dimwitted egoist whose sight is limited by their own selfishness- A proper fool chasing after immediate results-" because they have basically acted the same way, which is why the good ending is not wholly reliant on Angela forgiving Roland but also on Roland forgiving her. Roland hurt countless others in his desire for vengeance and the game draws a direct parallel between his and Angela's actions; it would be pretty cheap if Roland gets condemned for his actions but Angela doesn't despite the game stating that they are functionally the same.
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Apr 11, 2021 21:26
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Theantero posted:The people that run away are all people that just bring more people to the Library, in the end. They leave because the Library allows, and indeed means for them to leave. Recall that the Invitation (sent by Carmen, as per the Hokma realization) is given only to people that are 'destined' to come, so the people that leave are no more than people who are coming just to be allowed to leave. Keikaku doori and all that. I don't see how any of this is damning for Angela Anyways, where is it stated directly we repeatedly summon people? Red Mist intro?
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Apr 11, 2021 23:20
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