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Chillgamesh posted:ngl I think every single post I have made itt wrt soul dynamics has been insanely wrong and come from a place of misunderstanding how they work lmao Thus far, it seems like each soul we've run into has worked kind of like this: There's the main soul on the source where all the pieces are going as Rejoinings occur. These were the 'base' souls that the shards were broken off of when the world was broken up. Each world then has subdivisions of this soul, one piece per. Azem's primary soul is currently the Warrior of Light, our played character, on the Source. And there are various other heroic people in other worlds who are also pieces of this soul. Ardbert was our piece on the First and, with his merger with us, the Warrior of Light is now one step further rejoined compared to other people. G'raha, apparently, is also one step further restored, as he had undergone an additional rejoining because of Time Shenanigans. There's an implication that Unukalhai may be another piece of the same soul that Nybert was a piece of, but we haven't gotten an indication of who his current self on the Source was. When a rejoining takes place, everyone gets a piece of their soul back that had been split off to create another Shard, this is not PRECISELY a linear increase in power. Some Ascian dialog suggests that Rejoinings are also harming the Source in ways that aren't immediately obvious, perhaps related to the continued burden on Hydelain and the strain of causing great disasters in general. Of course, with the Ascians, Utopia is always just another sacrifice away...
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Apr 11, 2021 19:47
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Chillgamesh posted:
He absolutely resents the mortal races though, and rationalises his actions away by insisting they're barely even people by the standards of the ancients. He conceeds he's wrong in the end, but it takes murdering him for him to grant that you're worthy of acknowledgement
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Apr 11, 2021 19:50
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To bring class analysis into it, Emet-Selch is sympathetic because he's been willing to abandon his privileges in the pursuit of his goals, whereas Varis is more or less entirely driven by the desire to keep his even when he has to know they're created by a government that is completely opposed to his goals.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:01
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multijoe posted:He absolutely resents the mortal races though, and rationalises his actions away by insisting they're barely even people by the standards of the ancients. He conceeds he's wrong in the end, but it takes murdering him for him to grant that you're worthy of acknowledgement Even considering that, I still think he's more apathetic than hateful towards us - in other words, he thought of us less as an enemy and more as an obstacle towards getting back the people he loved. He didn't make Hythlodaeus sentient or leave the shard of Azem with them by accident. Endorph posted:Zenos trust when Ul'dah and Limsa sucking rear end comes up constantly. Gridania's thing is that even though they suck it's because they're being held hostage by angry forest spirits that will kill them if they break with tradition
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Apr 11, 2021 20:02
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multijoe posted:He absolutely resents the mortal races though, and rationalises his actions away by insisting they're barely even people by the standards of the ancients. He conceeds he's wrong in the end, but it takes murdering him for him to grant that you're worthy of acknowledgement I've speculated that Emet, without Zodiark's meddling, wants to let go and let the world move on. But because he's been Tempered he's being forced to work against his own nature. The Architect wants to build, but everything The Architect is making is for the purposes of falling over and destroying everything around it in a giant disaster. His spiritual senses tell him he is dealing with actual, living and breathing people, but his god refuses to let him see them as anything other than ants. It isn't until he is himself again, when death's door opens to take him away, that we are actually speaking with the REAL Hades again. This isn't the first time we've seen this happen. EDIT: He's still a dick. And his and his team's summoning of Zodiark started this cycle of horseshit. And we still don't know what the original root cause of all this suffering is. And we won't probably know until the field is cleared of all the crap they tacked on to keep the world stable. But this is why we are the Minister of Very Enthusiastic Walks. Gearhead fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 20:02
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Chillgamesh posted:Ul'dah and Limsa sucking rear end comes up constantly. Gridania's thing is that even though they suck it's because they're being held hostage by angry forest spirits that will kill them if they break with tradition
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Apr 11, 2021 20:06
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Chillgamesh posted:Ul'dah and Limsa sucking rear end comes up constantly. Gridania's thing is that even though they suck it's because they're being held hostage by angry forest spirits that will kill them if they break with tradition I don't think the Elementals are forcing the Gridanians to be super racist towards duskwights, that's all on them.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:10
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Hogama posted:a Sage Specializes in both conjury/white magic and thaumaturgy/black magic, has special magic power that's [has been/will be] fueled by own life force... Maybe there's some weight to the "Y'shtola will bite it this expansion" theory after alll.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:13
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Endorph posted:it comes up in story but nobody does the 'all fascists should die' angle when merlwyb shows up for five lines or whatever I meant itt and in the main FFXIV thread, but you're still right. I guess it's because people in general would rather look the other way than acknowledge and confront when their team is doing bad poo poo. It's easy to hate on Varis since he's the bad guy in spiky armor mean mugging and blowing poo poo up, and difficult to look at the cool sexy pirate you work for and acknowledge she's, for the most part, doing the same poo poo. I think Ul'dah catches a lot more poo poo from players both because the story spends more time on it and more importantly, because Lolorito and the monetarists aren't "our team" in the same way Nanamo and Raubahn are, even though ultimately Nanamo and Raubahn also hold a lot of responsibility for why Ul'dah sucks even if they want to improve it. WrightOfWay posted:I don't think the Elementals are forcing the Gridanians to be super racist towards duskwights, that's all on them. My Gridania lore is super thin since it doesn't come up in MSQ as much and my character started in Limsa.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:13
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Endorph posted:it comes up in story but nobody does the 'all fascists should die' angle when merlwyb shows up for five lines or whatever Honestly Merlwyb turning on a penny from being an open imperialist to willing to sacrifice her life to create peace with the Kobolds without any prior development is one of the game's worst writing turns in ages, I guess all it takes to solve racism is for the perpetrators to realise it's not really on and voluntarily change their ways, easy.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:14
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TBF the Gridania's military force spends most of its time being racist to Dark elves and moon cats and less often the Sylphs and the game isn't very much invested in looking at that kind of racism atm.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:14
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multijoe posted:Honestly Merlwyb turning on a penny from being an open imperialist to willing to sacrifice her life to create peace with the Kobolds without any prior development is one of the game's worst writing turns in ages, I guess all it takes to solve racism is for the perpetrators to realise it's not really on and voluntarily change their ways, easy. I think this was less out of her having a change of heart and more out of necessity - the Eorzean Alliance is winning the conflict around Ghimlyt at the moment because of the civil war in Garlemald but if the Empire gets their poo poo together and attacks with full force it's going to be a repeat of the last war and the Alliance will get crushed. Limsa cannot afford to have the Sahagin and Kobolds as enemies any more, so Merlwyb stuck her neck out to make peace.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:18
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Also her admitting the issues of Limsa and wanting to change but being stuck because this is the hand she was dealt has been a thing since 2.0. She just finally had the space and the resolve to say gently caress it and step out and risk it.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:21
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WrightOfWay posted:I don't think the Elementals are forcing the Gridanians to be super racist towards duskwights, that's all on them. Woodsin seems to pop up a lot in Duskwights because of the whole War of the Magi problem, there was apparently a not-small number of Elezen involved in that. The Mooncats are a whole new CASE of Woodsin because they tend to wander off into the forest, do rugged survivalist things and set the Elementals off.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:23
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multijoe posted:He absolutely resents the mortal races though, and rationalises his actions away by insisting they're barely even people by the standards of the ancients. He conceeds he's wrong in the end, but it takes murdering him for him to grant that you're worthy of acknowledgement Arguably there's a layer of self-deception there: If he admits that the mortal races are just as much people as his own kind, then he is admitting to himself that he is a genocidal monster.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:27
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Also her admitting the issues of Limsa and wanting to change but being stuck because this is the hand she was dealt has been a thing since 2.0. She just finally had the space and the resolve to say gently caress it and step out and risk it. She explicitly tells Y'shtola in ARR that this whole mess is the Limsans' fault and yeah they do deserve what's coming to them. But by the same token, the only way Merlwyb could meaningfully try to stop this poo poo would provoke an open civil war when the Garleans are right there and she's not going to roll over and let Titan kill everyone. Guess what? When the situation arose again and Limsa Lominsa isn't in immediate danger of getting conquered if they have a potential civil war, she's more than willing to do whatever it takes to achieve peace.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:28
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why is she allowed to change her ways but not gaius
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Apr 11, 2021 20:35
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Cythereal posted:She explicitly tells Y'shtola in ARR that this whole mess is the Limsans' fault and yeah they do deserve what's coming to them. But by the same token, the only way Merlwyb could meaningfully try to stop this poo poo would provoke an open civil war when the Garleans are right there and she's not going to roll over and let Titan kill everyone. Yeah this isn't some character flip or sudden turn, this was the stated goal and ideals of the character for like 8 years at this point Endorph posted:why is she allowed to change her ways but not gaius Because they're two separate characters with differnet backgrounds and personalities and also entirely separate actions and sins at incredibly different scales of injustice and violence and one is actively working to make things better for the whole sub-continent while the other is still going "Well look yes the ascians are bad and the empire has gone too far in a few places but the core ideals are something we can salvage" who only really is helping out because his adopted kids got tangled up in it and otherwise he's just be out hunting poo poo tier ascians again. Yes there's a possibility that maybe Gaius can learn by the end of the trial series but it really hasn't been looking like the plot is going that direction at all. But maybe! But also basically everything in the last expansion about the garlean remnants has been they all still are brutal assholes even if a few of them mean well and them clinging to the ideals of garlemald they think can be salvaged has just lead to more death and suffering. For example, Gabranth and his whole squad in the Bozja questline.So I doubt they're going to go that way with Mr. Garlemald's Socia-Political Model himself. I think we're going to get a further broken and beaten man who just keeps failing to learn the lessons he should be, because he's kind of limited by who he is to actually change anything. Where as the Admiral's turn has been something she's been talking about and working toward and wanting to do since you first met her character. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 20:35
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I just wanted to say that I really appreciate this thread and everyone in it. We’ve had a multi-page discussion about the topic of fascism, which can often lead to heated arguments. Despite people in this thread disagreeing with each other, the thread has remained very readable and engaging. Compare this to the WoW thread where they had to ban any fascism/nazi talk due to both the quality of the game writing and the quality of the posts. Basically - I love you all and I have enjoyed reading this discussion.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:43
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As lame and inadequate as it feels to say this, I don't think Merlwyb ever viewed the oppression of the Kobolds and Sahagin as something that was desirable or good, while Gaius definitely thought that the only way the world would ever see peace is under Imperial dominion. This is not to diminish what she's done or the suffering of the people upon whom Limsa's story is based, obviously.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:45
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Chillgamesh posted:As lame and inadequate as it feels to say this, I don't think Merlwyb ever viewed the oppression of the Kobolds and Sahagin as something that was desirable or good, while Gaius definitely thought that the only way the world would ever see peace is under Imperial dominion. I mean, I think one person hit the nail on the head when they said Gaius has consistently seen the Empire not as something that could fail but only something that could be failed. Look at how he reacts when he sees Zenos slay Varis. Dude immediately tries to run in and save the dying emperor. And this is AFTER he already had knowledge of the Black Rose.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:48
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Mordiceius posted:I mean, I think one person hit the nail on the head when they said Gaius has consistently seen the Empire not as something that could fail but only something that could be failed. He still believes in the Empire, the ascians just led them down a bad path is all! So he's gotta kill them all so the empire can get back to doing the good work they were meant to.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:50
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:He still believes in the Empire, the ascians just led them down a bad path is all! So he's gotta kill them all so the empire can get back to doing the good work they were meant to. This was 100% my take on Gaius prior to Emerald Weapon but I think he's now starting to comprehend exactly how hosed up his vision for the world was. He's not only watching his kids die, he's watching his kids die fighting against the Empire he wanted to build. e: He literally watches his son be consumed by the image of his own hatred Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 20:52
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:He still believes in the Empire, the ascians just led them down a bad path is all! So he's gotta kill them all so the empire can get back to doing the good work they were meant to. Exactly. Gaius is a true believer. That’s why he deserves punishment and scorn in the way that someone like Merlwyb doesn’t. Gaius saw his unshakable faith as strength and the whole Weapon storyline is punishing him for that.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:54
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nobody deserves punishment. im a prison abolitonist.
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Apr 11, 2021 20:58
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I think the problem is that we haven't gotten to see Gaius' transition from Imperial Legate to Shadowhunter in much detail. We can INFER that a man who believed very strongly that he was saving the world finding out that he was helping to destroy it instead is, however, going to be extremely unhappy with his former bosses and the people who set policy. This man was willing to stand out in front of his own firing lines and call bombardments down on his own head while he was trying to kick rear end personally. I don't think Gaius is capable of doing ANYTHING quietly.
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Apr 11, 2021 21:02
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Endorph posted:nobody deserves punishment. im a prison abolitonist. if you think a prison's function is to serve as punishment, there's already a lot wrong with you in the first place
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Apr 11, 2021 21:04
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If the person never sees why what they've done is wrong, retribution almost certainly isn't going to make them do it, I agree. The thing with Gaius though is that the "punishment" he's facing is of entirely his own making.
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Apr 11, 2021 21:04
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Chillgamesh posted:If the person never sees why what they've done is wrong, retribution almost certainly isn't going to make them do it, I agree. The thing with Gaius though is that the "punishment" he's facing is of entirely his own making. Yeah. It’s less punishment and more consequences.
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Apr 11, 2021 21:22
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HenryEx posted:if you think a prison's function is to serve as punishment, there's already a lot wrong with you in the first place what
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Apr 11, 2021 21:23
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HenryEx posted:if you think a prison's function is to serve as punishment, there's already a lot wrong with you in the first place likewise killing someone who will otherwise continue to cause harm to other people is totally justified, but killing someones whos done harm to people, in the past, is not. im not saying gaius isnt facing consequences (which are different) or hasnt done anything wrong (boy has he), or that the story won't have him face further consequences or have him make further mistakes (both seem pretty possible directions for his story to go), just that i dont think itd be an objectively good thing, morally, for him to get owned more than he already has.
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Apr 11, 2021 21:30
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Ibram Gaunt posted:what
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Apr 11, 2021 21:38
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Mordiceius posted:I just wanted to say that I really appreciate this thread and everyone in it. We’ve had a multi-page discussion about the topic of fascism, which can often lead to heated arguments. Despite people in this thread disagreeing with each other, the thread has remained very readable and engaging. Nobody's called anyone else a fascist for disagreeing with them yet, which puts it head and shoulders above a few other game threads.
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Apr 11, 2021 22:54
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Chillgamesh posted:I think this was less out of her having a change of heart and more out of necessity - the Eorzean Alliance is winning the conflict around Ghimlyt at the moment because of the civil war in Garlemald but if the Empire gets their poo poo together and attacks with full force it's going to be a repeat of the last war and the Alliance will get crushed. Limsa cannot afford to have the Sahagin and Kobolds as enemies any more, so Merlwyb stuck her neck out to make peace. ZenMasterBullshit posted:Also her admitting the issues of Limsa and wanting to change but being stuck because this is the hand she was dealt has been a thing since 2.0. She just finally had the space and the resolve to say gently caress it and step out and risk it. This is fair. It still feels kinda rushed but honestly it's such a verbrose game already I guess I can't fault them for Merl not giving you an entire spiele about realpolitik alliances on top of everything else already going on in 5.4
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Apr 11, 2021 23:06
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multijoe posted:This is fair. It still feels kinda rushed but honestly it's such a verbrose game already I guess I can't fault them for Merl not giving you an entire spiele about realpolitik alliances on top of everything else already going on in 5.4 Which is at least distinct from "Yes, muahahahahaha, you're just my little cleanup crew who will pick up the pieces as I take my joy in robbing kobolds!" or "THE WEAK MUST EVER SERVE THE STRONG OR NEEDS MUST PERISH IN OBSCURITY"
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Apr 11, 2021 23:08
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Her response was basically "Yeah the people who came before us started this fight and it's terrible, but we can't just let the Kobolds summon Titan to obliterate us all."
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Apr 11, 2021 23:11
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Tempering really puts a huge wrench in any potential working towards peace. Yes the founders of Limsa Lominsa were absolutely at fault for what they did to the Kobolds, but in the present they don't exactly have a lot of options when the primary power base of the Kobolds are literally enslaved by a wrathful god and can't be negotiated with. Merlwyb steps up and puts her money where her mouth is the literal instant there is a cure for tempering so she's alright in my book.
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Apr 11, 2021 23:17
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Yeah, the story doesn't try to hide the fact that the internal politics of the city states are causing just as much trouble and are pretty much directly responsible for the additional trouble of Primals being summoned left and right.
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Apr 11, 2021 23:48
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Apparently the Diamond Weapon fight is a capture mission. Bet you anything it doesn't go oversoul outside of the EX.
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Apr 11, 2021 23:49
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I doubt that. Extreme trials haven’t ever had any additional phases or story related content over the regular difficulties.
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Apr 12, 2021 00:22
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