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Rockstar Massacre posted:while there certainly is an argument that sticking with non-violence allowed them to effectively help a handful of people around them, it did nothing to actually stop the GRC from solidifying their hold or curb their abuse of power, and before Karli turned to violence Walker and the rest of the global authority were still completely intent on stopping them, almost certainly with the violence implied by state actors. So the only danger in being violent in return is that they lose their groundswell of support - which they didn't, as far as we can see. Realistically, using terror tactics against an authoritarian institution does nothing to weaken it. You’re just proving their rhetoric is right and that gives them an excuse to double down on their oppressive tactics. Public opinion at large turns against them. Their groundswell abandons them as the oppressor teaches civilian collaborators that a lot more can be taken from them. Violent revolution is a power fantasy that only works out if you have support from the military/police or from an outside government.
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Apr 12, 2021 01:08
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Historically you absolutely needed an outside sponsor for violent revolution to succeed. Even the American revolution would've failed if not for France.
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Apr 12, 2021 01:11
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Jedit posted:I don't think so. What's more likely to happen is that Karli realises that she's crossed a line you can't come back from, and now there's nothing left but pursuing the path to the end no matter what it takes. God I hope not. Much like the production rumor earlier in the thread this is like the most uninteresting version of that storyline that could be done.
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Apr 12, 2021 01:14
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(Or the support of the military and/or police). The only exception I can think of is the French Revolution and that is sometimes called the Parisian Revolution due to the underlying conflicts that made it (and several successive governments) collapse. So we really come back to the issue of revolution being a game of persuasion of the right people once again.
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Apr 12, 2021 01:15
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Marsupial Ape posted:Oh, certainly! The Myth of American Exceptionalism . Basically, we be believe we can do no wrong...so we end up doing a lot of wrong poo poo and equivocating it later. Ah! Ok yeah I thought that was it, I'll have to give it a reread though been awhile.
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Apr 12, 2021 01:22
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KittyEmpress posted:In episode 3, before Karli had blown up anything, we see Walker and a fully kitted out special forces team with lots and lots of guns and a literal group of APCs breaking down doors to intimidate people who they thought were connected to the Flag Smashers. Walker all but threatens to break a restaurant(?) owner's head, if he doesn't want to talk. It takes Battlestar talking him down to get him not to assault a literal civilian while backed up by military force. If anything, Walker's public execution and near decapitation of one of the Flag Smashers in broad daylight in front of thousands of people has probably boosted Karli's cause and numbers far more than any act of terrorism or her attempt to kill him ever would have . People and causes love martyrs, and Walker could not have given Karli a better powder keg for her movement to massively expand and turn it into the Super Global Troubles if he loving tried. TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Apr 12, 2021 |
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Apr 12, 2021 01:38
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TulliusCicero posted:If anything, Walker's public execution and near decapitation of one of the Flag Smashers in broad daylight in front of thousands of people has probably boosted Karli's cause and numbers far more than any act of terrorism or her attempt to kill him ever would have . People and causes love martyrs, and Walker could not have given Karli a better powder keg for her movement to massively expand and turn it into the Super Global Troubles if he loving tried. Oh, wow, it just occurred to me how absolutely bad for the Flagsmashers and good for the GRC if she actually killed Walker. Public perception wise, assassinating Captain America would be almost as bad as punching Baby Yoda.
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Apr 12, 2021 01:46
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Marsupial Ape posted:Realistically, using terror tactics against an authoritarian institution does nothing to weaken it. You’re just proving their rhetoric is right and that gives them an excuse to double down on their oppressive tactics. Public opinion at large turns against them. Their groundswell abandons them as the oppressor teaches civilian collaborators that a lot more can be taken from them. Violent revolution is a power fantasy that only works out if you have support from the military/police or from an outside government. Rockstar Massacre posted:Insisting the Flag Smashers curb their violence when their enemies don't is absolutely childish and the only concerns are tactical, not moral. got you covered in that same post. I don't expect a bunch of early twenty-somethings to be really good at finding a path to victory, in particular against historically unlikely odds. I'm just saying, when people say they 'can't get behind their methods', they now have a obligation to find a solution that works. 'do nothing and wait for a state sponsor' isn't an ethical solution to take or to propose.
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Apr 12, 2021 01:47
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I honestly think it's gonna be both. American media is gonna push the Capt did no wrong angle while social media is gonna be much more sympathetic to Karli. She's going to gain more grassroots followers while the establishment media is going to bend over backwards to show how Walker was right, and he gets the support of the MCU alt-right and nazis. And let's be fair in a world where some right winger gets snapped and then comes back to a brown family living in his house, nazi recruitment is gonna be sky high.
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Apr 12, 2021 01:49
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Marsupial Ape posted:Oh, wow, it just occurred to me how absolutely bad for the Flagsmashers and good for the GRC if she actually killed Walker. Public perception wise, assassinating Captain America would be almost as bad as punching Baby Yoda. Oh if Karli's plan had actually succeeded, Walker would be a saintly martyr and the world would have united to utterly put her down like a rabid dog . Instead Walker gave the Flag Smashers a loving PR extravaganza to the average person. "Actual symbol of American Hegemony nearly publicly decapitates a surrendering refugee in broad daylight" is absolutely a massive swing in global public opinion. Walker hosed up his mission beyond anyone's wildest expectations.
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Apr 12, 2021 01:56
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Rockstar Massacre posted:got you covered in that same post. I don't expect a bunch of early twenty-somethings to be really good at finding a path to victory, in particular against historically unlikely odds. I'm just saying, when people say they 'can't get behind their methods', they now have a obligation to find a solution that works. 'do nothing and wait for a state sponsor' isn't an ethical solution to take or to propose. Nonviolent resistance isn’t sexy or emotionally satisfying, but nonviolent resistance is the more ethical and historically more effective path to real change. Blowing up GRC buildings may make Karli feel good, but organizing a general strike would actually hamper the GRC enough to actually bring them to the bargaining table.https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/02/why-nonviolent-resistance-beats-violent-force-in-effecting-social-political-change/ Trust me, if I could wave a magic AK-47 and make Fully Automated Space Gay Communism happen, I would.
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Apr 12, 2021 02:03
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There, uh.. seems to be a lot to wrap up in the final two episodes. Is this another one-shot show like Wandavision or are we expecting this to ride on into a second season?
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Apr 12, 2021 02:03
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Marsupial Ape posted:Public perception wise, assassinating Captain America would be almost as bad as punching Baby Yoda. Watching the big fight scene it occurred to me that if Sam and Bucky hadn't interfered and the Dora Milaje had killed Walker, there would be no way the United States would have let CAPTAIN AMERICA be killed by a bunch of black terrorists without massive reprisal. Somewhere on the Ancestral Plane, Killmonger's ghost got real excited for a second.
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Apr 12, 2021 02:05
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Martytoof posted:There, uh.. seems to be a lot to wrap up in the final two episodes. Is this another one-shot show like Wandavision or are we expecting this to ride on into a second season? Laser beams will resolve everything in a neat little package
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Apr 12, 2021 02:09
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Nah, they definitely weren't trying to kill him. They were holding back and just stunted on him.
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Apr 12, 2021 02:14
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Martytoof posted:There, uh.. seems to be a lot to wrap up in the final two episodes. Is this another one-shot show like Wandavision or are we expecting this to ride on into a second season? I expect there will be a lot left unresolved. They may deal with Walker or he could still be around. Boat financing situation will still look grim.
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Apr 12, 2021 02:14
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AJA posted:Watching the big fight scene it occurred to me that if Sam and Bucky hadn't interfered and the Dora Milaje had killed Walker, there would be no way the United States would have let CAPTAIN AMERICA be killed by a bunch of black terrorists without massive reprisal. That only applies to weaker nations, if the Dora Milaje killed Captain America and Wakanda didn't disavow their actions, the US would lick boots and throw Walker under the bus so fast your head would spin. No way the US would actually try and fight Wakanda now, not since they revealed how advanced they really are.
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Apr 12, 2021 02:15
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Martytoof posted:There, uh.. seems to be a lot to wrap up in the final two episodes. Is this another one-shot show like Wandavision or are we expecting this to ride on into a second season? The show is supposed to be linked to one of the movies, they haven't said which one. I have my bets that it's gonna continue in Black Panther 2. Loki is the only one with a second season planned. Oh, and totally unrelated, but thanks to the goon that mentioned The Alienist. I always saw it in Netflix but never watched. drat, Daniel Brühl is actually amazing in it! And the man does look good in long coats lol
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Apr 12, 2021 02:20
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Thundercracker posted:Nah, they definitely weren't trying to kill him. They were holding back and just stunted on him. I would have to go back and see if the woman who pinned his shield instead of his heart was the same as the one who tried to skewer him a sec before. I think there is enough pride there to show the colonizer just how outclassed he is, but I also think there is too much professionalism to mess around on an op like that. Either way, it doesn't matter in the context of the show, it was just a sort of What If...? thought I had.
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Apr 12, 2021 02:21
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Marsupial Ape posted:Nonviolent resistance isn’t sexy or emotionally satisfying, but nonviolent resistance is the more ethical and historically more effective path to real change. Blowing up GRC buildings may make Karli feel good, but organizing a general strike would actually hamper the GRC enough to actually bring them to the bargaining table.https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/02/why-nonviolent-resistance-beats-violent-force-in-effecting-social-political-change/ I feel like I covered this? the nature of violent vs nonviolent conflict is a tactical argument, it's not a moral failing to choose violence in response to violence. I have a laundry list of reasons to suggest yours, Erica Chenowith's, and her lengthy list of peers analysis' of these conflicts are flawed, but I also didn't assert at any point that violent resistance was definitely the way to go no matter what either so I don't really feel the need. Sam and the other guy who responded me equate violence from Karli and the Global hegemony she opposes as morally the same, but that's false - if i'm the biggest kid in the yard and i push around all he other kids, it's my fault when they push back even if they might have found another way.
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Apr 12, 2021 02:30
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Rockstar Massacre posted:I feel like I covered this? the nature of violent vs nonviolent conflict is a tactical argument, it's not a moral failing to choose violence in response to violence. 1) Fighting morally vs amorally IS a tactical concern when you're doing a revolution because revolutions only succeed if they harness the popular will, or at least if the popular will accepts them when they decapitate power. If you're just another dictator in a long string of dictators the people are not going to care when the next person comes along and kills YOU. If you want what you're building to last than doing it as clean as you can is the smarter strategy, even if it takes longer to reach your goal. 2) Utilitarianism is a lovely way to build a better world. Go read the Brother's Karamazov. Or watch Fate/Zero if you don't have time for that I guess.
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Apr 12, 2021 03:45
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Servetus posted:I expect there will be a lot left unresolved. They may deal with Walker or he could still be around. Boat financing situation will still look grim. Supposition: it's a little late to introduce someone entirely new, Sharon is totally going to be the Power Broker, isn't she?
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Apr 12, 2021 04:14
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Supposition: it's a little late to introduce someone entirely new, Sharon is totally going to be the Power Broker, isn't she? Its seemingly increasingly certain. Unless its going to be like a post-credits reveal deal. What if it was the Kingpin, that'd be dope.
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Apr 12, 2021 04:16
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I'm the Power Broker.
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Apr 12, 2021 04:40
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Babe Magnet posted:I'm the Power Broker. Dang, why are you doing those things?
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Apr 12, 2021 04:59
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Spacebump posted:Dang, why are you doing those things? Because Apple wouldn't let him have an iPhone on camera
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Apr 12, 2021 05:06
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Sanguinia posted:What if it was the Kingpin, that'd be dope. gently caress now I'ma be upset when it ain't this
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Apr 12, 2021 05:08
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Bleck posted:gently caress now I'ma be upset when it ain't this Surprise! It's the kid from Iron Man 3. But being serious it seems all is pointing out to Sharon. I wonder if she is deep undercover, or if she really really went bad.
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Apr 12, 2021 05:14
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It's Mephisto
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Apr 12, 2021 05:24
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I assumed the Power Broker is being set up as an overarching villain, whose identity and resolution will come in another series. They seem fairly tangential to the main plot of FATWS and there's such little time left that I don't know how they could address them, even if it is Sharon.
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Apr 12, 2021 05:29
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Its Rinaldo posted:It's Mephisto No it's Reed Richards
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Apr 12, 2021 05:30
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Doctor Nutt posted:No it's Reed Richards Same thing
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Apr 12, 2021 05:31
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It would be cool if the Power Broker is Armin Zola.
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Apr 12, 2021 06:28
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Doctor Nutt posted:No it's Reed Richards Gonna pull out a wild prediction and say it's the Leader. The MCU has had Tim Blake Nelson in it's back pocket for far too long.
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Apr 12, 2021 06:35
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Clearly it's MODOK!
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Apr 12, 2021 06:51
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Sanguinia posted:Clearly it's Mojo!
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Apr 12, 2021 06:55
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It's clearly Mephisto
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Apr 12, 2021 07:26
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Sanguinia posted:Clearly it's MODOK! MODOP
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Apr 12, 2021 07:28
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No, it's Ward!
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Apr 12, 2021 07:37
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Marsupial Ape posted:It would be cool if the Power Broker is Armin Zola. ScreenCrush guy promotes this. He was also one of the leaders of the Mepheston theories on youtubes. I guess its more of a possibility with Zola being already being in the MCU.
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Apr 12, 2021 07:39
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